Should Christians Keep the Ten Commandments Today???

[lovely]

I think this is a good question, and due to brother Lionel's other thread I did more studying on the subject.

Reading through, I would have to agree with what Drew said about the Law being written on our hearts. I think the Law on our hearts includes much more than Torah, as Aero pointed out. In the sermon on the mount Jesus took things much further than Torah, to show us that love was the greatest law. Love the Lord God with all, and each other, and that all the laws and commands hang on these two. Jesus says that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. It seems like He is telling us to do the impossible, but He knows that the Holy Spirit will be sent to us, and will flood our hearts with a love for God and others that will compel to obey as we walk in the Spirit...something we can not do in our flesh.

When we read Galatians we see Paul responding to those who would have all the Gentiles circumsized in order to be identified with Christ. He tells us the purpose of the Law. It was a tutor as well as a curse, Galatians 3:10-14 says For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.†Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.†But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.†Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for usâ€â€for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a treeâ€Â so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. Jesus who died for us has made a way so that our righteousness is now through faith, and he shows us that we are not children of the bondswoman under a yoke of slavery again, but heirs of faith...faith working through love. This was Paul's response, as well as the Church's response (The Jerusalem Council) to having men circumsized in order to be identified with Christ.

In maturity we walk in love, through the Holy Spirit, and the Law that is written on our hearts will lead us. To try to find our righteousness in the Law, apart from the Holy Spirit, is self-righteousness and we may be found without our wedding garments on. As heirs, we are free in Christ. Galatians 4:1-7 I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!†So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

We are encouraged not to turn from freedom to make provision for the flesh, otherwise we are putting ourselves under an obligation to keep the whole law. Galatians 5:1-6. For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

We are called to, in love, to serve one another through the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:16-18 says But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Paul is not advocating sin, or to follow the lusts of the flesh, but he is showing us that we, children of God, who came by the Spirit are to continue in the Spirit. This is the path of obedience to the law written on our heart. Galatians 2:15-21 says "We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

 

[Brother Lionel]

There appears to be a slight misconception on the details of the law in regards to the Old Testament. There were two types of laws: The Ten Commandments which came directly from God, and the Laws of Moses which were delivered to the people by the prophet himself. The bible shows us that there is a clear distinction between the two:

The Ten Commandments were spoken by God - Exodus 20:1, Deut 4:12 & 13
The Laws of Moses were spoken by Moses - Exodus 35:4, Deut 4:14

The Ten Commandments were written by God - Exodus 24:12, Exodus 34:28, Deut 4:13
The Laws of Moses were written by Moses - Exodus 24:4, Deuteronomy 31:9

The Ten Commandments were written on stone - Exodus 24:12, Exodus 34:1, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 9:10 & 11
The Laws of Moses were written on paper - Exodus 24:4, Deuteronomy 31:24,

The Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark - Deuteronomy 10:2 & 5
The Laws of Moses were placed outside of the ark, on the side pocket - Deuteronomy 31:26

Now, according to the bible, God differentiates the Ten Commandments and the laws which Moses delivered to the people. With that being said, after someone accepts Jesus into their lives, should they live in accordance to the Ten Commandments? We are not speaking about the laws of Moses, but the Ten principles that God spoke and wrote. I hope this clarifies the question a bit. ;)

 

[Drew]

My understanding is that Jesus stated, in the sermon on the mount, that he came to fulfill the law not abolish it.

There is no contradiction between fulfilling the law and abolishing it.

Suppose I get on a plane to fly to Paris. When I get to Paris my purpose is fulfilled. Do I keep flying? Of course not.

In the same way, Jesus is the fulfillment of "destination" of Torah, but with the work of Jesus, the Torah is retired.

Then Christ could have said,,,,I come not to fulfill the law but to abolish it........but He didnt for obvious reasons....

No. You are not engaging my argument.

I have shown precisely how Jesus could have legitimately asserted that He fulfilled the Law, and yet also abolished it.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

There appears to be a slight misconception on the details of the law in regards to the Old Testament. There were two types of laws: The Ten Commandments which came directly from God, and the Laws of Moses which were delivered to the people by the prophet himself. The bible shows us that there is a clear distinction between the two:

The Ten Commandments were spoken by God - Exodus 20:1, Deut 4:12 & 13
The Laws of Moses were spoken by Moses - Exodus 35:4, Deut 4:14

The Ten Commandments were written by God - Exodus 24:12, Exodus 34:28, Deut 4:13
The Laws of Moses were written by Moses - Exodus 24:4, Deuteronomy 31:9

The Ten Commandments were written on stone - Exodus 24:12, Exodus 34:1, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 9:10 & 11
The Laws of Moses were written on paper - Exodus 24:4, Deuteronomy 31:24,

The Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark - Deuteronomy 10:2 & 5
The Laws of Moses were placed outside of the ark, on the side pocket - Deuteronomy 31:26

Now, according to the bible, God differentiates the Ten Commandments and the laws which Moses delivered to the people. With that being said, after someone accepts Jesus into their lives, should they live in accordance to the Ten Commandments? We are not speaking about the laws of Moses, but the Ten principles that God spoke and wrote. I hope this clarifies the question a bit. ;)

Yes we should keep the 10 commandments......These were passed from God and are still in effect to this day.....But if you steal ,,,you repent,,,,if you covit you repent...if you disrespect your parents you repent....See all the laws are still there,,we just have a easier way to atone now.....But the law is still there....

 

[Drew]

There appears to be a slight misconception on the details of the law in regards to the Old Testament. There were two types of laws: The Ten Commandments which came directly from God, and the Laws of Moses which were delivered to the people by the prophet himself. The bible shows us that there is a clear distinction between the two:

I do not see the grounds for any such distinction.

They all came directly from God. The 10 commandments were given to Moses, and he relayed them tot the people. Same thing with all the other laws. The fact that certain laws were "written down by Moses" does not mean that they do not come from God in the same way that the 10 commandments do.

 

[Drew]

See all the laws are still there,,we just have a easier way to atone now.....But the law is still there....

Paul disagrees with you:

14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might (AV)make the two into (AW)one new man, thus establishing peace,

NIGHTMARE, can you tell us precisely why Paul is mistaken and tell us your position on the inerrancy of Scripture?

 

[Brother Lionel]

They all came directly from God. The 10 commandments were given to Moses, and he relayed them tot the people. Same thing with all the other laws. The fact that certain laws were "written down by Moses" does not mean that they do not come from God in the same way that the 10 commandments do.

But if that were the case, why did God engrave the commandments in stone with His finger and commanded Moses to write the other laws in a book, on paper? If God did not want to differentiate the laws, He couldve told Moses to write the Ten Commandments also. But the fact that He didnt use Moses to inscribe the Ten Commandments leads us to believe that He did this for the purpose of letting us know how eternal and unchangable these ten laws are.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

See all the laws are still there,,we just have a easier way to atone now.....But the law is still there....

Paul disagrees with you:

14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might (AV)make the two into (AW)one new man, thus establishing peace,

NIGHTMARE, can you tell us precisely why Paul is mistaken and tell us your position on the inerrancy of Scripture?

You disagree with me,,,,I agree with Paul and Paul agrees with Christ...

YOu dont understand because you dont understand laws,,,,ordinances,,,statues,,,and what they pertain...

Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"

The (partition) kept the Israelites/Jews and the gentiles seperate...When Christ died that seperation become no more now any man can come to God thru the son Christ.....

Ephesians 2:15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Maybe you missed this part,,,," contained in ordinances". Again you dont understand the difference in the law and the ordiances found inside the law.....Your bad not mine....

Christ fullfiled the blood ordinances......Maybe you should check out the book of Hebrew chp 10....

If you choose to not follow the laws fine,,,your going to be doing alot of repenting,,,,but wait:::since there is no law I guess you wont even have to repent,,,,just sit back and enjoy the labors of sweet Jesus.....

 

[Drew]

But if that were the case, why did God engrave the commandments in stone with His finger and commanded Moses to write the other laws in a book, on paper?

Do you really think this "paper vs stone" distinction is important - that it in any sense means that law delivered on paper are less "God's laws" than those delivered on paper? I have never heard anyone adopting this position before - ascribing a distinction based on the specific media by which the laws are actually "written down".

 

[Drew]

You disagree with me,,,,I agree with Paul and Paul agrees with Christ...

Incorrect.

YOu dont understand because you dont understand laws,,,,ordinances,,,statues,,,and what they pertain...

We have been through this before in grisly detail. Your entire argument is predicated on the manifestly false argument that "statutes" are not part of the "the Law" since the term "statute" is different from the term "Law".

That's like arguing that Fred Jones is not part of the human race because his name is not "Human".

 

[Drew]

Maybe you missed this part,,,," contained in ordinances". Again you dont understand the difference in the law and the ordiances found inside the law.....Your bad not mine....

Here is a repost of something that shows that "ordnances" and "statutes" are part of the Law - the Torah:

What Paul writes in Galatians 2 makes it clear that he uses the term “law†in a sense that includes the kosher purity laws, given as part of the written code of Torah. This is powerful evidence that Paul’s use of the term “law†is not limited to what we normally think of as the “moral†components (e.g. the 10 commandments), but rather includes all the written code.

In Galatians 2, Paul writes of a dispute he had with Peter over table-fellowship. Peter had been encouraging Jews and Gentiles to eat at separate tables. What is not explicitly stated, but is clear from implication, is that Peter’s motivation would have been grounded in the prescriptions of the Torah, where food laws served the function of marking out the Jews as a distinct people. Thus, we have this from Leviticus 20:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

Paul argues that Peter is incorrect and insists on a single table for Jews. In so doing, he is implicitly saying that the Levitical food laws have come to an end – if they were still in force, then it would indeed make sense for Jews to eat apart from Gentiles. But the key point, for present purposes, is that Paul uses the term “Law†in such a way that food “statutes†are part of the law. Note how Paul makes his point that Jew and Gentile belong at the same table:

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified

The logic is quite simple and clear:

1. Paul is arguing for a single table for Jews and Gentiles;

2. Peter’s motivation for separate tables is grounded in the purity food laws;

3. Paul supports his argument for a single table by denying people are justified by the Torah – the Law.

4. This can only make sense if Paul understands the Torah to include food laws. If Paul thinks that the food laws are “statutes†apart from the Torah – the Law – why does he refer to the fact that people are not justified by the Law as the explanation for his position on the table fellowship issue? If he had a distinction between “Law†and “food statues†in mind, he should have said something like this: “a man is not justified by the food stutes….â€Â. But, of course, he does not.

Paul clearly uses the word “Law†– at least here – to include the kosher food ordnances.

 

[RND]

People "without the Spirit" are going to do what they are going to do. Since a person without the Spirit is not a Christian, I am not sure what the point of your question is.

I have heard of plenty of Christian's that are "going to do what they are going to do." Do you agree?

And let's remember: The Law - the Torah - was only ever given to the nation of Israel and was for them alone.

It was? Why then did God Himself require every gentile that chose to sojourn with Israel to keep the whole law?

There are lots of dimensions to this issue but I would suggest that the following are clear:

1. The Torah was only ever given to the nation of Israel;

And I would suggest that you study-up because both Israelite and stranger were required to observe this law and to take it a step further Israel was required to teach these laws to her neighbors (Deuteronomy 4).

2. This, of course, does not mean that, during the period before the Law was retired, that non-Jews are "free" to commit murder. That would be like saying its OK for people in country A to commit murder because that country has no formal law against murder.

So then they "were" required to follow the law! :o

3. The Torah as a written prescriptive code was retired - abolished - 2000 years ago. It applies to no one now.

It doesn't? So then there is absolutely no reason to read or to even attempt to understand the OT.

4. Using the same principle as per point 2, this does not mean that its now "OK" to commit murder, adultery, etc.

Sounds like your reduced the ten commandments down to the ten suggestions.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

You disagree with me,,,,I agree with Paul and Paul agrees with Christ...

Incorrect.

YOu dont understand because you dont understand laws,,,,ordinances,,,statues,,,and what they pertain...

We have been through this before in grisly detail. Your entire argument is predicated on the manifestly false argument that "statutes" are not part of the "the Law" since the term "statute" is different from the term "Law".

That's like arguing that Fred Jones is not part of the human race because his name is not "Human".

 

[RND]

I do not see the grounds for any such distinction.

The distinction is that one was in which the words of the covenant were written and those tablets were placed in the Ark of the Covenant. The book of the law, the Mosaic law, was placed on the outside of the Ark as a "witness" against the COI and the words they spoke when they agreed to perform the covenant of God.

They all came directly from God. The 10 commandments were given to Moses, and he relayed them tot the people. Same thing with all the other laws.

The difference is that God wrote down His covenant with Israel, Moses wrote down the word that were a witness against Israel.

The fact that certain laws were "written down by Moses" does not mean that they do not come from God in the same way that the 10 commandments do.

Of course not, and that is why there are certain laws within the Mosaic law that are still quite relevant to this day.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I dont have time to start from Genesis and walk thru the old test,,,which is what i think you need but maybe you should clance over this,,,its beginner but a pretty good article...

Il cut it cause its long....


When God led the children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage, He delivered to them in fiery majesty the Ten Commandments. This Holy law was spoken by God, written by God, recorded on tables of stone, and is of eternal duration. At the same time the ceremonial law, of temporary usage, was also delivered to the children of Israel. This law dealt with the ceremonial rites of the Jewish sanctuary service, and concerned itself with a system of religion that passed away at the cross. Large sections of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy describe in detail this temporary ceremonial law. This ceremonial law can easily be identified in the Scriptures. It talks about circumcision (a religious Jewish rite), sacrifices, offerings, purifications, holy days, and other rites associated with the Hebrew sanctuary service.

God's Word speaks of two great Laws. Law Number 1 is the Law of God (the Ten Commandments, or Two tablets of the Testimony,) also known as the Moral law and the Decalogue. Law Number 2 is the Law of Moses (the “Book of the Law,†or “Book of the Covenantâ€Â), also known as the Mosaic Law, the Ordinances and the Ceremonial Law. Is there a relationship between the Ten Commandments and the Ceremonial law? Absolutely. If an Israelite sinned, he broke Law Number 1, the Moral Law of the Ten Commandments. He then had to bring his offering according to Law Number 2, the Sacrificial Law to receive forgiveness. This is the relationship between these two laws. Law Number 1 defines sin, as sin is the transgression of the Moral Law, the Ten Commandments (1 John 3:4). Law Number 2 defined sacrifices, the Mosaic Law, the Ceremonial Law or Ordinances which was the remedy for sin.

If the Israelite sinned, he broke the first law. To make atonement for his sin he had to obey the second law. As can be clearly seen, here are two very distinct laws of which this fact is unmistakable. Jesus Christ permanently took the place of Law Number 2 when He cried out “It is finished†and bowed His head and died. When the unseen hand tore the temple curtain from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51), this signified that this ceremonial law system was once and for all time nailed to the cross.

While the word ceremonial is spoken frequently of in scripture the term Ceremonial Law is not. In the King James Bible, it is normally translated to ordinances which Strong’s dictionary translates to as being a ceremonial law or law of ordinances. As it was a system of commandments given by God to Israel, there can be no doubt that it was a law that involved ceremonies so it will often be called the Ceremonial Law.

The ceremonial law was for Israel alone as the Gospel did not go to the Gentiles for 3.5 years after Jesus died on the cross. The perfect sacrifice of Jesus ended this whole sacrificial system once and for all, thankfully giving us no requirement to obey this law of bondage which pointed forward to the true sacrifice that saves us from our Sins, which is transgression of the Moral law, the Ten Commandments of love. When we sin now, we genuinely repent and through God’s Grace and faith in Jesus, we are forgiven.

Passages of confusion with the Ceremonial law
Many people believe that Colossians 2:16, Galatians 4:10 and Romans 14:5 are referring to the Seventh day Sabbath and even some believe they refer to the Ten Commandments and not the ceremonial law. What is the real truth? Since there is so much confusion in this area, these passages will be our main focus.

The Ceremonial law Holy days and feasts
Before considering Colossians 2:16, Galatians 4:10 and Romans 14:5, getting some insight into the various feasts, holy days and sabbaths will give us a much better understanding of the ceremonial law and why Paul referred to it as bondage. Leviticus chapter 23 is the simplest and shortest way of covering these feasts and sabbaths so we will start there and then move onto Colossians 2:16 and the other passages.

To fully understand the purpose of the ceremonial law, one must really understand the principle of type and antitype. The sequence of days observed for the feasts as shown in scripture is the “type.†This sequence of days is symbolic of what was to come in the future and for its fulfilment which is the “antitype.†The type and antitype WILL and MUST therefore always match precisely.

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; you shall do no work therein: it is the SABBATH of the LORD in all your dwellings.

The above verse refers to the fourth Commandment, i.e. Gods Sabbath. It is the “Sabbath of the Lord†and is part of the great eternal law of love. Notice how it is listed separately from the other “feasts of the Lord.†Note also how it is a Holy convocation, that is, the Sabbath is a day intended for fellowshipping with other Christians and quality Holy time with our Creator. This is NOT part of the ceremonial law.

The seventh day Sabbath is a memorial of creation that God established at creation. Although it was celebrated as a feast day, it is not a day that originated with the Jews, it preceded them. When one of the feast days fell on the seventh day Sabbath, it was referred to as a high Sabbath day (John 19:31).

Leviticus 23:4-5 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which you shall proclaim in their seasons. 5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S Passover.

This part of the ceremonial law was a shadow of Jesus crucifixion and is called “Passover or Pesach.†These and all the following verses in Leviticus chapter 23 are NOT part of God’s eternal Ten Commandment law of love. As verse four says, “these are the many feasts of the Lord†that are not a law of love and were temporary as they represented the work that Christ would do at the cross through His death and resurrection. Love however is not temporary and will never be nailed to any cross.

The type was the Passover in Egypt where the blood of the lamb was smeared on the door posts. Jesus and the disciples ate the Passover meal (Matthew 26:18-20) of unleavened bread and wine in the early hours of this day (Exodus 12:18), which would have been our Thursday evening (the biblical day begins and ends at sunset). Jesus was crucified the afternoon of the 14th (Friday) at the time the Paschal lambs were being slain (Exodus 12:6). Passover is a shadow or type of the sacrifice of Jesus which is the antitype, the lamb of God, at the cross (1 Corinthians 5:7).

Leviticus 23:6-8 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day you shall have an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein.

This part of the ceremonial law was a shadow of the time Jesus spent in the tomb on the seventh day Sabbath and is called the “Feast of Unleavened Bread.â€Â

The Feast of Unleavened Bread was a type of the sinless nature of Jesus releasing us from the bondage of sin (if we have faith in His atoning death). Jesus is the sinless bread of life (John 6:32, 48-51) and leavened bread represented the corruption of sin in one’s life that Jesus overcomes (1 Corinthians 5:8). Putting away the sin in your life (leavened bread) and replacing it by accepting sinless Jesus Christ (unleavened bread) in its place is the Gospel Message symbolized in the Passover meal known today as the Lord's Supper or Communion. You participate in the Lord's Supper to remember the sacrifice that Jesus made for you at the cross (Luke 22:19). This was the time of year of the latter rain (March/April). On this day Israel began to eat from the old corn and the manna ended the following day (Joshua 5:11).

Leviticus 23:9-14 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When you be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 And you shall offer that day when you wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. 13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14 And you shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that you have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

This part of the ceremonial law was a shadow of Jesus' resurrection from the tomb and is called "First Fruits." Note the meat offering and drink offering that Paul refers to at the start of the verse in Colossians 2:16 that we will discuss later. The table below gives clarity to this and the previously discussed feasts.

This was the day of first sheaf waving (type), the first fruit of the barley harvest. The antitype was Resurrection Sunday which also occurred on 16 Nisan. Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrection, (1 Corinthians 15:20, 23, 2 Timothy 2:6-8), the antitype. It is important to note that it was not a day of convocation (Not a sabbath) to the Jews, so there is no reason for it to be a sabbath in antitype (post-resurrection) to Christians. This is because the festival sabbaths were not just commemorative in nature but also prophetic, pointing to future Holy events as fulfilments. To suggest a new Sunday holy day was instituted on resurrection day, is to say the festival calendar appointed by God was in error since it omits a weekly 1st day observance. In Jewish Tradition, the period called the Omer begins on 16 Nisan and extends for 50 days to Pentecost or Shavuot. Manna ceased to fall on this day (Joshua 5:12).

 

[Drew]

People "without the Spirit" are going to do what they are going to do. Since a person without the Spirit is not a Christian, I am not sure what the point of your question is.

I have heard of plenty of Christian's that are "going to do what they are going to do." Do you agree?

Sure, but that casts into serious doubt whether they are "real" believers.

And let's remember: The Law - the Torah - was only ever given to the nation of Israel and was for them alone.

It was? Why then did God Himself require every gentile that chose to sojourn with Israel to keep the whole law?

Fair enough - but the Law was still constrained to the nation of Israel and "those who sojourned" with her. The point being that the vast majority of humanity was never under the Law.

And I would suggest that you study-up because both Israelite and stranger were required to observe this law and to take it a step further Israel was required to teach these laws to her neighbors (Deuteronomy 4).

You are mistaken. The Law was for the nation of Israel (along with some local Gentile sojourners). It was never given to all humanity. In fact, God tells us precisely the opposite - that the Law was meant to be exclusive to a certain people:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.

I see nothing at in Deuteronomy 4 that indicates that "the Law" was to be adopted by other nations. What part of Deuteronomy 4 are you talking bbout ?

 

[Drew]

3. The Torah as a written prescriptive code was retired - abolished - 2000 years ago. It applies to no one now.

It doesn't? So then there is absolutely no reason to read or to even attempt to understand the OT.

Faulty reasoning. You ignore the possibilty that the Torah was a temporary measure in the purposes of God, instituted for a specific purpose, a purpose which has been fulfilled at the Cross. And Paul says so here:

For Christ is the end of the law...

Under such a scenario, there is still good reason to read and understand the Old Testament - to see the wonder of a redemptive plan wherein the Torah leads to the Cross.

 

[Drew]

4. Using the same principle as per point 2, this does not mean that its now "OK" to commit murder, adultery, etc.

Sounds like your reduced the ten commandments down to the ten suggestions.

Deeply misleading.

My position here is internally consistent and scriptural. God has indeed retired the Torah, including the 10 commandments, and has given us the Spirit to replace the written code. And I trust we all understand that the Spirit will not "suggest" that you do not murder, as if the option of committing murder were an acceptable alternative. Here is yet more scripture that shows that the Spirit functions as a replacement for the Law:

Or do you not know, (A)brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For (B)the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law (E)through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were (G)aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been (I)released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [a]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Now please tell us - how is Paul not declaring the end of the Law?

 

[RND]

Faulty reasoning. You ignore the possibilty that the Torah was a temporary measure in the purposes of God, instituted for a specific purpose, a purpose which has been fulfilled at the Cross.

Drew, the reason I reject such a "possibility" is because God never changes. Thus it is not possible that His Ten Commandments were a "temporary" measure. His law is "perfect, just and good" and therefore, by that description alone, cannot be temporary.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

There is nothing "temporary" about Psalms 18:7. Nor is anything about God temporary. His Ten Commandments are an expression of His nature and character and the basis by which His entire Kingdom operates.

And Paul says so here:

For Christ is the end of the law...

That's right, Christ is the "end" of the law. Everything began and ends with Him.

Under such a scenario, there is still good reason to read and understand the Old Testament - to see the wonder of a redemptive plan wherein the Torah leads to the Cross.

And yet, once the COI reached the promised land, the law was not done away with and a new law issued. They were subject to the same law before the came into the promised land as before. I would say that if anyone is using "faulty reasoning" it would be the one that says God's law is "temporary."

 

[Drew]

Drew, the reason I reject such a "possibility" is because God never changes. Thus it is not possible that His Ten Commandments were a "temporary" measure. His law is "perfect, just and good" and therefore, by that description alone, cannot be temporary.

This is an argument that is easy to counter. You are basically saying this: "Since God is unchanging, He cannot implement any plan in the world that has dynamic elements of change". This greatly handcuffs God - it denies Him the possibility of acting in the world "since God doesn't change"

I suggest that you are implicitly hoping the reader will confuse the fact that the fundamentals attributes or qualities of God not change (e.g. loving nature, seeks justice, forgives, etc.) with the way that God acts in the world. Well, the scriptures show otherwise.

As just one example: God came to the temple and then abandoned the temple. How can this be if God doesn't change? How can God's presence in the temple be temporary?

And yet it is clear from the scriptures that God's unfolding plan of redemption is a dynamic one, full of twists and turns and, yes, change.