Should Christians Keep the Ten Commandments Today???

[RND]

Deeply misleading.

For who?

My position here is internally consistent and scriptural. God has indeed retired the Torah, including the 10 commandments, and has given us the Spirit to replace the written code.

Then what of those that continue to transgress the law of God? They have no spirit and thus it is impossible to keep the law of God. They are at odds with God, they cannot obey Him, His word, nor His law.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And I trust we all understand that the Spirit will not "suggest" that you do not murder, as if the option of committing murder were an acceptable alternative.

What standard does the Spirit have?

Here is yet more scripture that shows that the Spirit functions as a replacement for the Law:

Or do you not know, (A)brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For (B)the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law (E)through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were (G)aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been (I)released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [a]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Tell me Drew, in such a scenario, is the woman that is freed from the law because of the death of her husband and marries another free to break the law?

Now please tell us - how is Paul not declaring the end of the Law?

Please note that Paul is not referring to the Ten Commandments and obeying those - Paul is specifically referring to the law of Moses. What did Jesus say?

Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Paul was writing to "men who know the Torah." He wasn't writing to those that don't know the Torah. Interestingly your conclusions actually wind up contradicting the very Torah he is teaching from! To stay consistent with the analogy that Paul is giving one can only conclude that the explanation Paul is saying giving is that the wife is the Torah that condemned the sinner, and is the same wife, then called the Messiah, that the regenerated saint belongs to!

Is not the very standard Jesus lives by (the Torah) the very standard that condemns sinners, that even condemned Christ, but is also the very standard which Jesus kept perfectly for the sake of the justification of sinners that trust in him?

Is not the Torah the full and complete description of the perfect Messiah? If you say no then I have to conclude you don't know your scriptures very well. Is it not written that Jesus is the "Word of God made flesh?"

So then, when our sinful natures (the first husband - also symbolic for the nation of Israel) die to the Torah (the wife), which is the Messiah, it is our new natures (second husband - the new creation) that is alive to the Torah, which is the Messiah (the wife), which is exactly what he did. That is why He is now acting as our Heavenly Priest, mediating between man and God in the Heavenly Sanctuary!

Paul is teaching that the Torah’s relationship with sinners functions to condemn them to death, but when one becomes a saint - a new creation, that relationship changes to where now the Torah, which is the Messiah living in us, functions to have us live in the Spirit by what he did, and not what we do. When we live in the Spirit, by faith, we keep the Torah!

 

[Drew]

And Paul says so here:

For Christ is the end of the law...

That's right, Christ is the "end" of the law. Everything began and ends with Him.

You are not engaging my argument. Paul has made a statement that Christ is the "end" of the Torah. The most reasonable reading of this is to understand that the work of Jesus brings the work of the Torah to an end.

A vague response of the form "Everything began and ends with Him" sidesteps the force of this argument. Now, if you can, please offer us an alternative way to understand Paul here - a way in which the "end of the law" has the law not coming to an end, but instead persisting. That will be a challenge, since Paul, in chapter 7, has just told his readers that they are released from the Law:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,

 

[Drew]

Deeply misleading.

For who?

For the reader, of course. Your response was deeply misleading in that it suggested that, by adopting the position that the Torah is retired, I am somehow embracing the notion that we now have no moral authority to constrain us. And, of course, I embrace no such view, even though it would serve your position if I did. The Spirit replaces the law, you know like Paul says in the Romans 7 text that you have not engaged:

But now we have been released from the Law, having (J)died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

 

[RND]

This is an argument that is easy to counter.

Without scripture and a firm understanding? I agree.

You are basically saying this: "Since God is unchanging, He cannot implement any plan in the world that has dynamic elements of change". This greatly handcuffs God - it denies Him the possibility of acting in the world "since God doesn't change"

No it doesn't! It simply means that God has standards that don't change! God no more allows the violation of His ten commandments halfway across the universe than He allows here!

If God's law, the ten commandments, needed to be changed it wasn't perfect in the first place! Oh, my! Think of what you are saying.

I suggest that you are implicitly hoping the reader will confuse the fact that the fundamentals attributes or qualities of God not change (e.g. loving nature, seeks justice, forgives, etc.) with the way that God acts in the world. Well, the scriptures show otherwise.

No they don't! The thing that proceeds from the lips of God doesn't change! Never!

Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. You make God out to be wishy-washy!

As just one example: God came to the temple and then abandoned the temple. How can this be if God doesn't change? How can God's presence in the temple be temporary?

Because the temple was a symbol for the plan of salvation. When the curtain was torn in two it allowed all those that were prevented by sinful men to enter into boldly!

The temple was raised (broken down) and built again by Jesus Christ. Don't you know that you are a stone in that new temple?

And yet it is clear from the scriptures that God's unfolding plan of redemption is a dynamic one, full of twists and turns and, yes, change.

I have no doubt that this is what you believe. God's plan of salvation, from the very beginning, has never changed. Man has.

 

[Drew]

Then what of those that continue to transgress the law of God? They have no spirit and thus it is impossible to keep the law of God. They are at odds with God, they cannot obey Him, His word, nor His law.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Indeed - they are at odds with God. How is that an argument for persistence of the Torah, a code that has been shown, in this very thread to be for the nation of Israel only (plus a few Gentiles).

Now since you have claimed that Deuteronomy 4 endorses a different view, perhaps you can point to the exact text which supports your position.

 

[lovely]

The Law was added 430 years after the promise because of transgressions so that we could be imprisoned under sin until the coming faith could be revealed. God's plan is unfolding, not changing.

Galatians 3:15-26

15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,†referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,†who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Walking in the Spirit, and obeying the Law on our hearts, includes more than Torah, and more than the 10 commandments, because we are governed by faith in God and the Love that comes with it. The Law could not bring righteousness, but faith can, and so we should proceed in faith.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

4. Using the same principle as per point 2, this does not mean that its now "OK" to commit murder, adultery, etc.

Sounds like your reduced the ten commandments down to the ten suggestions.

Deeply misleading.

My position here is internally consistent and scriptural. God has indeed retired the Torah, including the 10 commandments, and has given us the Spirit to replace the written code. And I trust we all understand that the Spirit will not "suggest" that you do not murder, as if the option of committing murder were an acceptable alternative. Here is yet more scripture that shows that the Spirit functions as a replacement for the Law:

Or do you not know, (A)brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For (B)the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law (E)through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were (G)aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been (I)released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [a]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Now please tell us - how is Paul not declaring the end of the Law?

See one of the great things about God is,,,He makes sense,,,its easy reasoning,,,so its simple to spot a nonsense statement....like this one::::

Drew said

God has indeed retired the Torah, including the 10 commandments, and has given us the Spirit to replace the written code.

How dumb is this.....the spirit replaces the law????? :bigfrown

I know many people that dont believe in God,,,they can care less about your silly Holy spirit,,,they dont want it and dont have it,,,,BUT,,,they believe in the law,,,,,they believe that you cannot murder,,that you cannot rape,,,that you cannot steal.....

How can the spirit replace the law if a person doesnt believe in Jesus or the spirit??????? It cant......The law has not been replaced.....

Not to mention I know numerous muslims that dont believe Christ was the son of God or in His spirit,,,,,,so has the spirit replaced the law for these muslims,,,,is the reason they dont steal and murder th e spirit????? Of course not.........

You have said the law has been "retire" "abloished" "replaced" ,,,Christ has said none of these things,,,,but whatever dont follow the laws,,,,, eat what you want,,,if you have dinner at my house I know I can serve you possum intestine,,,hey theres no health laws right,,,,then we can go outside and workout (run a mile or 2 do some pullups) and when your balded up in a corner vomiting your brains out,,,,we can talk about how God replaced the health laws....

 

[RND]

Deeply misleading.

For who?

For the reader, of course. Your response was deeply misleading in that it suggested that, by adopting the position that the Torah is retired, I am somehow embracing the notion that we now have no moral authority to constrain us.

I think you are the one that is misleading the reader because without the Torah, as you state, then we have no standards - no rules to live by. God can no more alter the ten commandments that came from His mouth than I have the ability to change my skin color.

And, of course, I embrace no such view, even though it would serve your position if I did.

Sure you do! You believe the ten commandments were temporary! So thus you believe God's standards are temporary! Incredible!

The Spirit replaces the law, you know like Paul says in the Romans 7 text that you have not engaged:

Done!

But now we have been released from the Law, having (J)died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

That's right, we follow the law "spiritually!" See the Sermon on the Mount or 1 Corinthians 13. The converted have no need to go back you the rule book and see what it says, they know instinctively, by the Spirit, what it says - that doesn't mean the rule book has changed!

 

[Drew]

No it doesn't! It simply means that God has standards that don't change! God no more allows the violation of His ten commandments halfway across the universe than He allows here!

Well, I have already shown how you are confusing the unchangeability of God's nature - something I agree with - with the right of God to implement a system of laws that has a specific purpose, and which comes to an end when that purpose is fulfilled:

For Christ is the end of the law

Where is your explanation for this text that has the Torah not coming to end?

But forget about my argument - let's see what Paul says about whether the Torah is still in force:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

No wonder you do not address this text. I am greatly interested how you will make the case that:

1. Even though Paul says we are released from the Law, we are, mysteriously, not released from it after all;

2. Even though Paul says that we were bound to the Law, we are, mysteriously, still bound to it.

 

[RND]

The Law was added 430 years after the promise because of transgressions so that we could be imprisoned under sin until the coming faith could be revealed. God's plan is unfolding, not changing.

Question(s): Which law came because of transgressions and what are transgressions?

Walking in the Spirit, and obeying the Law on our hearts, includes more than Torah, and more than the 10 commandments, because we are governed by faith in God and the Love that comes with it. The Law could not bring righteousness, but faith can, and so we should proceed in faith.

What law did God write in the heart and who did He write it for?

 

[Adullam]

Those who follow the law with a carnal understanding (like sabbath keeping) should also be circumcized in the flesh. This is the old covenant. It is according to the flesh...what men can do. The new covenant is spiritual and deeper than the old. The circumcision of the heart is not made with hands. Neither is the sabbath merely something to not do. The sabbath rest is according to the Spirit. We fulfill the new covenant by walking in the newness of life in the Spirit and ceasing from our old dead works. We enter an eternal sabbath in this way. Just as God...we cease from our own works. But we enter into the divine works. We then do the works that were pre-ordained from heaven. We no longer walk like men, but by heralds of Christ in His strength and power.

 

[RND]

Well, I have already shown how you are confusing the unchangeability of God's nature - something I agree with

The Ten Commandments are the very expression of the nature and charater of God.

- with the right of God to implement a system of laws that has a specific purpose, and which comes to an end when that purpose is fulfilled:

And yet that purpose has still yet to be finished!

For Christ is the end of the law

Where is your explanation for this text that has the Torah not coming to end?

I have included that already. You'll have to re-read the thread.

But forget about my argument - let's see what Paul says about whether the Torah is still in force:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

Again, this has been addressed - plainly. You are trying to suggest that a woman that marries another man after her first husband dies is free to commit adultery - no law! Incredible.

No wonder you do not address this text. I am greatly interested how you will make the case that:

1. Even though Paul says we are released from the Law, we are, mysteriously, not released from it after all;

Why would we be released from the law? Because of death. What died? The first husband. I hope you do realize that Paul is using Deuteronomy 24 for his example!

He was using the law to make an example. Shouldn't that be evidence alone that it isn't dead?!

2. Even though Paul says that we were bound to the Law, we are, mysteriously, still bound to it.

Because we have "married" another. By this act alone we are not free to break the law!

 

[NIGHTMARE]

No it doesn't! It simply means that God has standards that don't change! God no more allows the violation of His ten commandments halfway across the universe than He allows here!

Well, I have already shown how you are confusing the unchangeability of God's nature - something I agree with - with the right of God to implement a system of laws that has a specific purpose, and which comes to an end when that purpose is fulfilled:

For Christ is the end of the law

Where is your explanation for this text that has the Torah not coming to end?

But forget about my argument - let's see what Paul says about whether the Torah is still in force:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

No wonder you do not address this text. I am greatly interested how you will make the case that:

1. Even though Paul says we are released from the Law, we are, mysteriously, not released from it after all;

2. Even though Paul says that we were bound to the Law, we are, mysteriously, still bound to it.

Your bible aids you in mis-understanding,,,,,,I would change....

Romans 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

When a Christian breaks the law we are to repent,,,,,,that why we have been delivered,,,,being baptized into Christ is deliverance from the law,,,,,,because now we repent in the name of Christ...

Without the law you wouldnt even no what to repent for.....

 

[Drew]

In response to the Romans 7 text where Paul says we are released from the Law:

Again, this has been addressed - plainly. You are trying to suggest that a woman that marries another man after her first husband dies is free to commit adultery - no law! Incredible.

I have never said anything like this at all.

The text says what it says - we have been released from the Law, we were bound to it.

You disagree - stating that we are still under the Law. That's your right, but it is not what Paul believes.

If you actually read my posts - and it is clear that you have not or are engaging in deliberate misrepresentation - you would know that I have repeatedly asserted that the Spirit replaces the Law, and it is the Spirit that guides us. And so, despite your flagrant misrepresentation of my position, I am not saying that any woman is free to commit adultery.

Now where in Deut 4 are we told that the Torah is for all nations. I am going to keep calling you on this.....

 

[RND]

In response to the Romans 7 text where Paul says we are released from the Law:

Again, this has been addressed - plainly. You are trying to suggest that a woman that marries another man after her first husband dies is free to commit adultery - no law! Incredible.

I have never said anything like this at all.

The text says what it says - we have been released from the Law, we were bound to it.

Why were we released from the law and what law were we released from? We were released from the law regarding marrying another. Our first husband died freeing us to marry Jesus Christ, we are His bride. The law wasn't done away with. It still stands. Thus we are not free to break the law while married to Christ. You think there is no law and thus we are free to violate our marriage vows to Christ.

You disagree - stating that we are still under the Law. That's your right, but it is not what Paul believes.

Paul believed the law showed Him his faults and his sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

If you actually read my posts - and it is clear that you have not or are engaging in deliberate misrepresentation - you would know that I have repeatedly asserted that the Spirit replaces the Law, and it is the Spirit that guides us.

You've said this many times, and I have read it several times. Question: What standard does the Holy Spirit use?

And so, despite your flagrant misrepresentation of my position, I am not saying that any woman is free to commit adultery.

So then the woman, the church in this case, is not free to break the law.

Now where in Deut 4 are we told that the Torah is for all nations. I am going to keep calling you on this.....

Call me all you want but it might be handy if you actually read it!

Deu 4:1 ¶ Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do [them], that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deu 4:3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you. Deu 4:4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God [are] alive every one of you this day.

Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do (do what?) so in the land whither ye go to possess it. (teach the statutes and judgments of God as Moshe taught them) Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do [them]; for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people. Deu 4:7 For what nation [is there so] great, who [hath] God [so] nigh unto them, as the LORD our God [is] in all [things that] we call upon him [for]? Deu 4:8 And what nation [is there so] great, that hath statutes and judgments [so] righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

 

[NIGHTMARE]

In response to the Romans 7 text where Paul says we are released from the Law:

Again, this has been addressed - plainly. You are trying to suggest that a woman that marries another man after her first husband dies is free to commit adultery - no law! Incredible.

I have never said anything like this at all.

The text says what it says - we have been released from the Law, we were bound to it.

You disagree - stating that we are still under the Law. That's your right, but it is not what Paul believes.

If you actually read my posts - and it is clear that you have not or are engaging in deliberate misrepresentation - you would know that I have repeatedly asserted that the Spirit replaces the Law, and it is the Spirit that guides us. And so, despite your flagrant misrepresentation of my position, I am not saying that any woman is free to commit adultery.

Now where in Deut 4 are we told that the Torah is for all nations. I am going to keep calling you on this.....

I have repeatedly asserted that the Spirit replaces the Law, and it is the Spirit that guides us.

YOu keep saying that,,,but what about people that are not Christians????? does the spirit guide them???

If you say "NO" then you have rebuked your own idea....

If you say "YES" your because the spirit is given to believers....

SO basiaclly your

 

[lovely]

Hey RND,

Which law came because of transgressions and what are transgressions?

Transgression is when we teach the precepts of men as doctrine (See Matthew 15), when we teach a law of works as a way to obtain righteousness and justification. (Romans 3) Through the law of works comes the knowledge of sin, but there is no justification. The Righteousness of God manifested itself apart from the law, which the Law and the Prophets point to, which is found through faith in Jesus Christ. We are under the new covenant, and the Laws and statutes of works that God made with Israel based on His covenant with them Leviticus 26 "These are the statutes and rules and laws that the Lord made between him and the people of Israel through Moses on Mount Sinai." have been replaced with the laws of faith written upon our hearts...which include the spirit of the Torah, and the commandments, but even goes further for those who are both hearers and doers. In this way, the law is upheld through faith, and able to bring us to repentance and obedience through our faith in the Lord Jesus. All the laws and the prophets hang on the Love commands, and in love they have not only been fulfilled, but upheld successfully.

What law did God write in the heart and who did He write it for?

God wrote the laws of faith in our hearts, for Himself, to reveal His righteousness in us and to bring us . So that we could truly be His people, and He would be our God. This is the covenant of the promise, which brings us close, and makes us heirs. In freedom we can completely behold His glory and truly be conformed to the image of Christ...we have traded one degree of glory for another that transforms us through the Spirit of God. Consider 2 Corinthians 3, but I will highlight a few verses.


7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. 12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Not of that says we shouldnt follow the law..............

 

[lovely]

Sorry guys, it only took me like four tries to figure out why my quotes weren't working.

Nightmare, are you directing that comment to me?

 

[Drew]

The Law was added 430 years after the promise because of transgressions so that we could be imprisoned under sin until the coming faith could be revealed. God's plan is unfolding, not changing.

Precisely. And the Galatians texts is yet another affirmation that the Torah - like the "tutor" (paidagogos) is retired.

The concept of the paidagogos is that of a "male baby-sitter" who would care for the child until the child comes of age. And then, guess what? The paidagogos is out of a job. Paul is using his metaphors perfectly - by characterising the Law as a paidagogos, he affirms that now that "faith" is here, the Law is retired.