Should Christians Keep the Ten Commandments Today???

[RND]

Without the Ten Commandments then there are no standards. None. It really comes down to this point. God's Ten Commandments are the ultimate revelation of His character and His nature. Without the Ten Commandments then there are no standards necessary to teach anything.

"And shall anybody advocate that the Lord of the universe has no law to govern His kingdom? Is it the doctrine of Jesus Christ or of heaven that the law of God has no binding claims upon the world's inhabitants? Why, the law of ten commandments is the great moral standard of righteousness in heaven and upon earth. This great law is the foundation of all laws, to all nations, and to all families." - Ellen White, Christ Triumphant

"In answer to the claim that at the death of Christ the precepts of the decalogue had been abolished with the ceremonial law, Wesley said: "The moral law, contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he did not take away. It was not the design of his coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken, which ‘stands fast as the faithful witness in Heaven.' . . . This was from the beginning of the world, being `written not on tables of stone,' but on the hearts of all the children of men, when they came out of the hands of the Creator. And, however the letters once written by the finger of God are now in a great measure defaced by sin, yet can they not wholly be blotted out, while we have any consciousness of good and evil. Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God, and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other." - Ellen White, The Great Controversy

"The law of the ten commandments, given in awful grandeur from Sinai, can never be repealed while the heavens and the earth remain. All enlightened law and government had its origin in those ten words of the Almighty. Those who speak slightingly of the moral code are blinded by sin, and are on the side of the great rebel, who has ever been at war with the law of God which is the foundation of his government in heaven and on earth. When God issues a proclamation that men are guiltless if they cease to love him, to reverence his name, and to keep holy his Sabbath--then, and not till then will the law of God be abrogated." - Ellen White, The Signs of the Times, March 7, 1878

 

[Drew]

YOu keep saying that,,,but what about people that are not Christians????? does the spirit guide them???

No. And do you think that they are going to follow "the Law" as written in the Bible? How many non-believers do you know who are concerned with the 613 rules of Torah? How many of them are concerned with obeying the Sabbath, or not eating screech owls, or sacrificing in the Temple?

In any event, as you should know, the Torah was only ever given to the nation of Israel.

If you say "NO" then you have rebuked your own idea....

Incorrect. I said "no" and have done no damage to my position at all.

If you say "YES" your because the spirit is given to believers....

SO basiaclly your

My position is entirely coherent - please show me any sense in which I am adopting a problematic position.

 

[RND]

Hey RND,

Which law came because of transgressions and what are transgressions?

Transgression is when we teach the precepts of men as doctrine (See Matthew 15), when we teach a law of works as a way to obtain righteousness and justification. (Romans 3) Through the law of works comes the knowledge of sin, but there is no justification. The Righteousness of God manifested itself apart from the law, which the Law and the Prophets point to, which is found through faith in Jesus Christ. We are under the new covenant, and the Laws and statutes of works that God made with Israel based on His covenant with them Leviticus 26 "These are the statutes and rules and laws that the Lord made between him and the people of Israel through Moses on Mount Sinai." have been replaced with the laws of faith written upon our hearts...which include the spirit of the Torah, and the commandments, but even goes further for those who are both hearers and doers. In this way, the law is upheld through faith, and able to bring us to repentance and obedience through our faith in the Lord Jesus. All the laws and the prophets hang on the Love commands, and in love they have not only been fulfilled, but upheld successfully.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What law did God write in the heart and who did He write it for?

God wrote the laws of faith in our hearts, for Himself, to reveal His righteousness in us and to bring us . So that we could truly be His people, and He would be our God. This is the covenant of the promise, which brings us close, and makes us heirs. In freedom we can completely behold His glory and truly be conformed to the image of Christ...we have traded one degree of glory for another that transforms us through the Spirit of God. Consider 2 Corinthians 3, but I will highlight a few verses.

What is the "law of faith?" In your mind is your definition of freedom one that means that there are no rules to abide by? "To do what I want when I want"?

 

[lovely]

RND,

Hebrews 1 says...1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

And Jesus said that the greatest law by which we are to be governed is...

Matthew 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?†37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.â€Â

 

[Brother Lionel]

But if that were the case, why did God engrave the commandments in stone with His finger and commanded Moses to write the other laws in a book, on paper?

Do you really think this "paper vs stone" distinction is important - that it in any sense means that law delivered on paper are less "God's laws" than those delivered on paper? I have never heard anyone adopting this position before - ascribing a distinction based on the specific media by which the laws are actually "written down".

Ok so if you never heard of this application before, lets examine it. Why did God engrave the Commandments on stone and allowed Moses to write the other laws on paper?

 

[Drew]

Without the Ten Commandments then there are no standards.None.

That's not what Paul believes. He believes that God has given believers the Holy Spirit:

so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who (K)do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

When someone says that we "need" the 10 commandments to guide us, that person is effectively ignoring the many places - such as the above from Romans 8 - where Paul tells us we are guided by the Spirit.

 

[RND]

How many non-believers do you know who are concerned with the 613 rules of Torah?

How many do you know that are even concerned with one?

How many of them are concerned with obeying the Sabbath, or not eating screech owls, or sacrificing in the Temple?

None. Same amount that can be claimed amongst the so-called converted.

In any event, as you should know, the Torah was only ever given to the nation of Israel.

You keep saying that but you haven't provided any scripture to support such a view.

Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

 

[RND]

That's not what Paul believes.

Paul clearly decided that the commandments "pointed out sin."

He believes that God has given believers the Holy Spirit:

so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who (K)do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

And what standard did Paul say the Holy Spirit used?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

When someone says that we "need" the 10 commandments to guide us, that person is effectively ignoring the many places - such as the above from Romans 8 - where Paul tells us we are guided by the Spirit.

Guided by the "Spirit" to obey the law of God. Drew, when someone says that the ten commandments were only temporary then what they are effectively saying is that God is wishy-washy and has no standards. They are denying that God has permanent standards that He does not change. They are saying that His word and law weren't perfect. They refuse to admit that it is the Spirit that allows them to be "subject to the law of God."

 

[Drew]

You keep saying that but you haven't provided any scripture to support such a view.

Here, again, is a clear statement that the Torah functions to mark out the nation of Isreal as distinct from the other nations.

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. 26'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

And, of course, there's more. Here in Romans 2, Paul shows that he believes that some are under the law and some are not:

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Are you hoping that the reader will not notice that this is specifically directed at strangers living with the Jews and is not a statement that all the world is to obey Torah?

Where does Deuteronomy 4 tell us that Torah is for all the nations? You made a claim that it did - now please give us the specific text.

 

[lovely]

RND, sorry about messing up my quotes, I fixed it.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Lawlessness describes those who do not have the law of God on their hearts, and John also tells us that it is through Charity that we obey Christ.

What is the "law of faith?" In your mind is your definition of freedom one that means that there are no rules to abide by? "To do what I want when I want"?

Having the law written on our hearts is the only way we can obey God, because the law of works was unsuccessful to bring righteousness. Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments. He was not asking us to do the impossible, but He showed us with His own life that through faith we could abide in Him, love, and be overcomers. God is us, and putting His law in our hearts, keeps us from being lawless and through His glory we conform to Christ...far from doing what we want when we want. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Jesus Christ lives in me.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

YOu keep saying that,,,but what about people that are not Christians????? does the spirit guide them???

No. And do you think that they are going to follow "the Law" as written in the Bible? How many non-believers do you know who are concerned with the 613 rules of Torah? How many of them are concerned with obeying the Sabbath, or not eating screech owls, or sacrificing in the Temple?

In any event, as you should know, the Torah was only ever given to the nation of Israel.

If you say "NO" then you have rebuked your own idea....

Incorrect. I said "no" and have done no damage to my position at all.

If you say "YES" your because the spirit is given to believers....

SO basiaclly your

My position is entirely coherent - please show me any sense in which I am adopting a problematic position.

SO for my friend Joanne that doesnt believe in God nor the spirit or any bible stuff,,,,,what keeps her from murdering,,,stealing ,,,and so on,,,,,its either the law or the spirit,,,,and it aint the spirit...

It a problem just like when you say the 10 commandments are retired,,,,then you say its NOT ok to steal or murder,,,,but the laws are retired????? Its bable/confusion.....

Either its ok to murder or its not.....If its not,,,then the law is still in effect...

 

[Drew]

Paul clearly decided that the commandments "pointed out sin."

What could possibly serve that function now, that the Torah is retired?

so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who (K)do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

 

[Drew]

SO for my friend Joanne that doesnt believe in God nor the spirit or any bible stuff,,,,,what keeps her from murdering,,,stealing ,,,and so on,,,,,its either the law or the spirit,,,,and it aint the spirit...

No. In all candor, how can you think this logic works?

Please, please try to follow this:

1. There are people somewhere in the wilds who have never read the bible and do not know the 10 commandments.
2. They are certainly not all Christians with the Spirit.

By your logic, they should be engaged in murder and mayhem, committing adultery left, right, and centre.

And yet this is clearly not the case. There are many non-believers who have never read the 10 commandments. They are not all murderers. They are not all adulterers. They are not all thieves.

Can we please get of this false dichotomy - that either you have the Spirit or the Law is still in effect.

 

[Drew]

Ok so if you never heard of this application before, lets examine it. Why did God engrave the Commandments on stone and allowed Moses to write the other laws on paper?

I have no idea. But please tell us why the difference choice of writing instrumentality has any bearing on the fundamental divine origin of these laws.

 

[RND]

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came sin revived and I died

What could possibly serve that function now, that the Torah is retired?

Those that don't want to be converted don't have the Spirit so how does the Holy Spirit convict them of sin and what standard does the Holy Spirit use?

so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who (K)do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

You keep citing this but you seem to have absolutely no clue what Paul is saying here. If the requirement of the law regarding marriage was indeed taken out of the way then that would mean the bride of Christ is free to commit adultery against Jesus.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another (Jesus Christ), even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

SO for my friend Joanne that doesnt believe in God nor the spirit or any bible stuff,,,,,what keeps her from murdering,,,stealing ,,,and so on,,,,,its either the law or the spirit,,,,and it aint the spirit...

No. In all candor, how can you think this logic works?

Please, please try to follow this:

1. There are people somewhere in the wilds who have never read the bible and do not know the 10 commandments.
2. They are certainly not all Christians with the Spirit.

By your logic, they should be engaged in murder and mayhem, committing adultery left, right, and centre.

And yet this is clearly not the case. There are many non-believers who have never read the 10 commandments. They are not all murderers. They are not all adulterers. They are not all thieves.

Can we please get of this false dichotomy - that either you have the Spirit or the Law is still in effect.

By your logic, they should be engaged in murder and mayhem, committing adultery left, right, and centre.

No I never said that,,,,,they keep the law by nature,,,isnt that what Paul said????????

Roman 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 

[RND]

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Lawlessness describes those who do not have the law of God on their hearts, and John also tells us that it is through Charity that we obey Christ.

What I asked is why did the law come 430 years after? It came because of "transgression." Lawlessness. I also asked "what was that law?"

Having the law written on our hearts is the only way we can obey God, because the law of works was unsuccessful to bring righteousness.

Jeremiah tell me that this was for the house of Israel or the house of Judah. So which one do you belong to?

Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments.

Which ones? 9 out of 10, 6 out of 10?

He was not asking us to do the impossible, but He showed us with His own life that through faith we could abide in Him, love, and be overcomers.

Yet He was asking us to obey!

God is us, and putting His law in our hearts, keeps us from being lawless and through His glory we conform to Christ...far from doing what we want when we want. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Jesus Christ lives in me.

What standard to those people have to obey that don't believe in Christ? Do they have a law written on their hearts?

 

[RND]

I have no idea.

Drew, if you have no idea why God wrote His Ten Commandments on stone and the law of Moshe in a book do you really think you are qualified to say that the Ten Commandments were temporary? That seems extremely presumptuous to me.

But please tell us why the difference choice of writing instrumentality has any bearing on the fundamental divine origin of these laws.

One indicates permanence and the other indicates it was subject to change. Drew, do you know what color the stone was that God wrote His Ten Commandments on? Do you know that color is missing from the clothing of the woman in Revelation 17? Come to think of it, do you know what clothing represents in the Bible?

 

[lovely]

RND,

I don't think you are reading my posts, because I have actually answered all of the questions you put forth in your last one, except this new one...

What standard to those people have to obey that don't believe in Christ? Do they have a law written on their hearts?

Romans 8 says that those in the flesh can not please God, because they need the law of the Spirit of life to be set free. Jesus came in the flesh so that the righteous requirement of the law could be fulfilled...something man can not do for himself. Men who continue to walk in the flesh are at emnity with God, but those who walk in the Spirit have life and peace with God.

here is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who try to follow the Law to be justified before God apart from Christ are walking in self-righteousness and are already condemned and at emnity with God because their mind is on the flesh.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

RND,

I don't think you are reading my posts, because I have actually answered all of the questions you put forth in your last one, except this new one...

What standard to those people have to obey that don't believe in Christ? Do they have a law written on their hearts?

Romans 8 says that those in the flesh can not please God, because they need the law of the Spirit of life to be set free. Jesus came in the flesh so that the righteous requirement of the law could be fulfilled...something man can not do for himself. Men who continue to walk in the flesh are at emnity with God, but those who walk in the Spirit have life and peace with God.

here is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who try to follow the Law to be justified before God apart from Christ are walking in self-righteousness and are already condemned and at emnity with God because their mind is on the flesh.

Those who try to follow the Law to be justified before God apart from Christ are walking in self-righteousness and are already condemned and at emnity with God because their mind is on the flesh

I dont think thats what anyone is doing,,,or anyone I know of......We follow the law because God told us to follow the law......When to law is broken there must be atonement,,,,,now because of Christ atonement has been made simple (repent) ,,,,dont doesnt chang ehte law itself....

people that dont understand stautes ordinances and the law itself,,,,seem to think Christ abolished the law,,,,he didnt,,,He fulfilled all things pertaining to blood ritual sacrifice.....