Should Christians Keep the Ten Commandments Today???

[RND]

You are missing the point.

Not at all. Your point has been noted and simply rejected by me.

The Ten Commandments are just a part of the sense of the total morality which comes from God that people tend to have. This is why Christians typically state that morality is absolute.

Morality is absolute! God has requirements.

But God gave them as the beginning of the Law; they are the foundation of the Law--the rest of the Law and prophets are based on them. That is the reason they were written down.

I think they were written in stone so they wouldn't be forgotten.

And the only people who would live according to the same principles expressed in the Ten Commandments are Jews.

What exactly is that supposed to mean? Do non-Jews get a pass for not being Jews and not observing the Ten Commandments? Can a non-Jew murder, and rape but a Jew can't? Does Hitler get a pass then?

One might be able to make an argument for Muslims as well but beyond that, no one keeps the Sabbath or refrains from worshiping other gods.

Does such a position negate the law or simply show that most people ignore the law?

 

[Brother Lionel]

Ok so this is confusing, you guys say that we are not obligated to live by these principles but yet you say that it is still sinful to worship idols, murder (whether spiritual or physical), lie, cheat (whether spiritual or physical), steal, dishonor your parents, or lust for your neighbor's belongings. Is this correct?

 

[Ben Joiner]

Again, to remind
1 How does one tell that ceremonial laws are temporary and the 10C are eternal?

2 Is it possible that the 10C are part of a larger Righteous plan of God?

To Brother Lionel's question, I think those who suggest the temporary application of the 10C do not suggest that every law contained therein is temporary. Rather they suggest that the particular grouping itself doesn't contain only eternal laws. Although it is possible that someone actually believes that all of the 10C do not still apply. That is also an important question.

3 Do you believe that all the laws in the 10C are temporary or only a number less than 10?

 

[Brother Lionel]

Again, to remind
1 How does one tell that ceremonial laws are temporary and the 10C are eternal?

The way they were delivered and who delivered them would be a start in telling which is temporary and which are eternal. Secondly, the New Testament. No where does it teach that the Ten Commandments were "done away" with. Conversely, there are dozens of scripture in the NT that speak about the ceremonial system in the form of circumcision and uncircumcision which was a statute directly tied to the ceremonial laws and its sacrificial system.

2 Is it possible that the 10C are part of a larger Righteous plan of God?

Yes, according to the bible. Rev 22:14 says "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Here in this verse, obedience to the commandments result in a right to the tree of life, and a right to enter in through the gates into the city. Furthermore, Rev 12:17 says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Here in this verse, the "seed" which is the remnant church are identified as those who "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". So, according to the bible, the Ten Commandments play a vital role in God's Plan.

To Brother Lionel's question, I think those who suggest the temporary application of the 10C do not suggest that every law contained therein is temporary. Rather they suggest that the particular grouping itself doesn't contain only eternal laws. Although it is possible that someone actually believes that all of the 10C do not still apply. That is also an important question.

So are you saying that we should keep "part" of the Ten Commandments?

3 Do you believe that all the laws in the 10C are temporary or only a number less than 10?

I for one believe that all Ten still apply today or else God would give us nine laws from the start, or eight, or three. They are not called "the Ten Suggestions". So to even question if we shold live by them, to me, is an insult to God.

 

[Brother Lionel]

So again, you guys say that we are not obligated to live by these principles but yet you say that it is still sinful to worship idols, murder (whether spiritual or physical), lie, cheat (whether spiritual or physical), steal, dishonor your parents, or lust for your neighbor's belongings. Is this correct because its confusing?

 

[NIGHTMARE]

And yet there are people that live according to these same principles expressed in the Ten Commandments that have never heard of the Holy Spirit - these are a law unto themselves!

You are missing the point. The Ten Commandments are just a part of the sense of the total morality which comes from God that people tend to have. This is why Christians typically state that morality is absolute.

But God gave them as the beginning of the Law; they are the foundation of the Law--the rest of the Law and prophets are based on them. That is the reason they were written down.

And the only people who would live according to the same principles expressed in the Ten Commandments are Jews. One might be able to make an argument for Muslims as well but beyond that, no one keeps the Sabbath or refrains from worshiping other gods.

And the only people who would live according to the same principles expressed in the Ten Commandments are Jews.

Nonsense,,,,,Keeping the 10 commandments has nothing to do with a person being Jew....

1)A Jew is a descendent from one of the 2 tribes of Benjamin or Judah accompied by some levitical priests.....

and often many are called Jews simply by living in the land of Judea......But being a Jew has nothing to do with the 10 commandments,,,as a matter of fact Israel had not split when the ten commandments were written thus there wasnt even a such thing as a Jew......better hit books....

 

[NIGHTMARE]

So again, you guys say that we are not obligated to live by these principles but yet you say that it is still sinful to worship idols, murder (whether spiritual or physical), lie, cheat (whether spiritual or physical), steal, dishonor your parents, or lust for your neighbor's belongings. Is this correct because its confusing?

Is this correct because its confusing

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Thats how you can tell whose full of it.....

God made it plain and simple,,,,we are to follow the laws,,,,,and if we break the law we are under grace (Christ) so we are able to repent......Christ didnt change the law what he changed was the statues ordinances......We have a different way of dealing with things whent he law is broken,,,,but the law itself has not changed......

 

[Brother Lionel]

And how does adhering to the divine principles only apply to Jews when Abraham kept them?? Yes, that's right, ABRAHAM kept God's commandments. In Genesis 26:5, God says "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." This scripture, as we stated all this time, shows us that the Ten Commandments were the divine standard before the Jews were even a people! This also supports the logic behind God engraving them on stone, because these commandments are eternal and permanent. You can also find these principles in the story of Joseph. In Gen 39:9, Potiphar's wife wanted to commit adultery with Joseph and it reads as thus: "There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he (Potiphar) kept back any thing from me but thee (his wife), because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Now clearly, adultery was a sin before the Jews received the Commandments so how is it that these same principles that preceeded them only apply to them?

 

[Drew]

And how does adhering to the divine principles only apply to Jews when Abraham kept them?? Yes, that's right, ABRAHAM kept God's commandments. In Genesis 26:5, God says "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." This scripture, as we stated all this time, shows us that the Ten Commandments were the divine standard before the Jews were even a people!

The Genesis 26 text you refer to is not, repeat not, referring to the 10 Commandments - those where only given later (remember when Paul says "the law was given 430 years after Abraham). The fact that Abraham obeyed some commandments from God does not mean that this included the 10 commandments, or any other of the "rules" that make up the Law of Moses - the Torah.

It is extremely important to understand that "the Law" is a specific reference to the Torah - the Law of Moses. This includes the 10 commandments, but a lot of other stuff as well. However, it is a mistake to think that any and all commandments from God are part of the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

[\Nonsense,,,,,Keeping the 10 commandments has nothing to do with a person being Jew....

1)A Jew is a descendent from one of the 2 tribes of Benjamin or Judah accompied by some levitical priests.....

and often many are called Jews simply by living in the land of Judea......But being a Jew has nothing to do with the 10 commandments,,,as a matter of fact Israel had not split when the ten commandments were written thus there wasnt even a such thing as a Jew......better hit books....

Free is correct in his assertion in the sense that is relevant to the present discussion, even though you may be correct on a matter of a technicality.

The Torah - including the 10 commandments but also a lot of other stuff - was given to the nation of Israel and only to the nation of Israel. There is overwhelming Biblical evidence for this. Here is just one text from Paul:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

This statement from Paul only makes sense if Gentiles are not under the Law. Do I really need to explain why? I trust not.

 

[RND]

The Genesis 26 text you refer to is not, repeat not, referring to the 10 Commandments - those where only given later (remember when Paul says "the law was given 430 years after Abraham).

Genesis 26 clearly says that Abraham obeyed the mitsvah, the chuqqah and the Towrah. Also, you might want to familarize yourself Drew as to "what" las was added 430 "after" transgression. That law was the Mosaic law that gave instruction as to how the sin problem would be dealt with. Think about it. If sin is the "transgression of the law" and the "law" came because of transgression, sin, then it can only be referring to the Mosaic law!

The fact that Abraham obeyed some commandments from God does not mean that this included the 10 commandments, or any other of the "rules" that make up the Law of Moses - the Torah.

The fact that Abraham obeyed the mitsvah, the chuqqah and the Towrah suggests indeed that he kept and understood the Ten Commandments!

It is extremely important to understand that "the Law" is a specific reference to the Torah - the Law of Moses. This includes the 10 commandments, but a lot of other stuff as well. However, it is a mistake to think that any and all commandments from God are part of the Law of Moses.

What is a mistake is not understanding what the word "Towrah" means. You might want to look it up for reference: Towrah - or torah {to-raw'}; from 'yarah' (3384); a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch:--law.

It is more than obvious that the writer of Genesis wanted his readers to know just exactly what "law" Abraham observed, The Decalogue.

 

[Drew]

The Genesis 26 text you refer to is not, repeat not, referring to the 10 Commandments - those where only given later (remember when Paul says "the law was given 430 years after Abraham).

Genesis 26 clearly says that Abraham obeyed the mitsvah, the chuqqah and the Towrah.

Misleading.

The important point is that whatever Abraham obeyed, it was not part of what become known as the Law of Moses, which included the 10 commandments. I have used the term "Torah" to refer to the Law of Moses. Forget that usage.

Please do not get confused. Abraham obeyed commandments and laws, but they were not part of the Law of Moses, which includes the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments were given hundreds of years later at Mount Sinai.

 

[Drew]

The Genesis 26 text you refer to is not, repeat not, referring to the 10 Commandments - those where only given later (remember when Paul says "the law was given 430 years after Abraham).

Genesis 26 clearly says that Abraham obeyed the mitsvah, the chuqqah and the Towrah. Also, you might want to familarize yourself Drew as to "what" las was added 430 "after" transgression. That law was the Mosaic law that gave instruction as to how the sin problem would be dealt with. Think about it. If sin is the "transgression of the law" and the "law" came because of transgression, sin, then it can only be referring to the Mosaic law!

You are mistaken.

Your argument lives and dies with the assertion that sin only exist in relation to "the Law". If that were indeed true, you would have a point.

But here in Romans 5, Paul makes it clear that sin is present even before the giving of the Mosaic Law. Whatever sin is, it existed before the Law was given, that is in the period from Adam to Moses:

for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses,

The position I am advancing is entirely coherent - the Law of Moses was given at Sinai, yet even before it was given, there was sin in the world.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

[\Nonsense,,,,,Keeping the 10 commandments has nothing to do with a person being Jew....

1)A Jew is a descendent from one of the 2 tribes of Benjamin or Judah accompied by some levitical priests.....

and often many are called Jews simply by living in the land of Judea......But being a Jew has nothing to do with the 10 commandments,,,as a matter of fact Israel had not split when the ten commandments were written thus there wasnt even a such thing as a Jew......better hit books....

Free is correct in his assertion in the sense that is relevant to the present discussion, even though you may be correct on a matter of a technicality.

The Torah - including the 10 commandments but also a lot of other stuff - was given to the nation of Israel and only to the nation of Israel. There is overwhelming Biblical evidence for this. Here is just one text from Paul:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

This statement from Paul only makes sense if Gentiles are not under the Law. Do I really need to explain why? I trust not.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

HUH"?????? Now you wouldnt be looking thru your bible picking out any verse that conatins the word "law" or maybe "gentiles" would you.......The things you point to,,, lean towards my rendering of the law not yours......

lets review:::

Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Yes christians are justified by faith...faith in Christ dying for our sins....ok

Without deeds of the law,,,,,of course,,,,"deeds of the law" is not what my faith or any christians faith is based upon we were just told we are justified by faith in Christ....ok

What does the law do?????? The law points out your sin,,,,thats it.....It does not give you salvation it,,, does not lead to salvation,,,,it basically shows you your err......How can showing wrong justify?????

It cant!!!!!! next verse::

Romans 3:29 "Is He the God of the Jews only? is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:"

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

God created all souls,,,we all belong to Him,,,He is the God of all of us,,,even if some dont know it.....

Know back on subject,,,what does this have to do with keeping the commandments????? Nothing...what we have just learned is only thru Christ can we be justified,,,,,,do we keep the law??? OF course we do....DO we follow the law???? Of course we do.......But it is Christ who saves.....

 

[Drew]

The fact that Abraham obeyed the mitsvah, the chuqqah and the Towrah suggests indeed that he kept and understood the Ten Commandments!

No. We know that Abraham obeyed some commandments and laws from God. But we also know that the Law of Moses was given 430 years later. Whether or not Abraham "understood" that we are not to kill, etc, is not the point.

He was simply long dead by the time the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments was given. You simply assume that he had access to the 10 commandments hundreds of years before they were given.

When I talk about "the Law" and make statements about it, I am very specifically referring to the Law of Moses. Perhaps I will ensure that I always use the phrase "Law of Moses" from now on.

It is the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments that were presented as a written code at Sinai, and it is the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments, that were retired at the cross.

 

[Drew]

It is more than obvious that the writer of Genesis wanted his readers to know just exactly what "law" Abraham observed, The Decalogue.

You have presented no evidence to suggest that Abraham had an advance copy of the 10 commandments. It appears that you are trying to make this (obviously incorrect) argument:

1. Abraham obeyed "laws";
2. The 10 commandments are "laws";
3. Therefore, Abraham obeyed the 10 commandments.

This is not valid logic.

 

[Drew]

lets review:::

Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Yes christians are justified by faith...faith in Christ dying for our sins....ok

Well, be careful. Paul is saying that a person is not justfied by doing the works associated with the Law of Moses. He is not saying that people are not justified by doing "good works".

Without deeds of the law,,,,,of course,,,,"deeds of the law" is not what my faith or any christians faith is based upon we were just told we are justified by faith in Christ....ok

Well, a Gentile Christians was never under the Law of Moses in the first place. So when Paul says people are not justified by the Law, he is saying that justificaiton is not limited to Jews, the only ones who are under the Law (of Moses) in the first place.

What does the law do?????? The law points out your sin,,,,thats it.....It does not give you salvation it,,, does not lead to salvation,,,,it basically shows you your err......How can showing wrong justify?????

It cant!!!!!! next verse::

Romans 3:29 "Is He the God of the Jews only? is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:"

Exactly, and this supports my argument – If it were the case that people were justified by doing the works of the Law of Moses, only Jews would have the potential to be justified. But, thankfully for we Gentiles, Paul says that this is not so.

I have no idea how you think this text works against my position. Please try to explain.

 

[Drew]

Know back on subject,,,what does this have to do with keeping the commandments????? Nothing...what we have just learned is only thru Christ can we be justified,,,,,,do we keep the law??? OF course we do....DO we follow the law???? Of course we do.......But it is Christ who saves.....

You are begging the very question at issue - simply asserting that we follow the Law of Moses. Well, as has been repeatedly shown, Paul believes the Law of Moses is retired.

 

[RND]

You have presented no evidence to suggest that Abraham had an advance copy of the 10 commandments.

You mean the word of God isn't enough?

It appears that you are trying to make this (obviously incorrect) argument:

1. Abraham obeyed "laws";

Laws = Towrah.

2. The 10 commandments are "laws";

The Ten Commandments are indeed the Decalogue.

3. Therefore, Abraham obeyed the 10 commandments.

What do you make of the meaning of Towrah then as being "the Decalogue"? Typo?

This is not valid logic.

For the obstinate? Evidently.

 

[Drew]

So again, you guys say that we are not obligated to live by these principles but yet you say that it is still sinful to worship idols, murder (whether spiritual or physical), lie, cheat (whether spiritual or physical), steal, dishonor your parents, or lust for your neighbor's belongings. Is this correct because its confusing?

I think that the reason you find this confusing is that, for some reason that I cannot make sense of, you seem to believe that a written code of prescriptive rules - such as the Law of Moses - is the only possible "guide" to "clean living".

Well Paul tells us that with the retirement of the Law of Moses, we are given another guide - the Holy Spirit.

Now I suspect that you would agree with this and suggest the Holy Spirit simply "whispers the written code of the Law of Moses" into our ear. I understand that thinking but suggest that the Spirit operates at a different level, a level that, in a sense, transcends "rules".

I love my dog. Do I need to look at a list of rules to keep me from murdering my dog? Of course not. I would not dream of murdering my dog because I love her, not because of some set of "rules". Does that clarify things at all?