Should Christians Keep the Ten Commandments Today???

[lovely]

Nightmare, I agree that Jesus fulfilled it, and I would go further and say that through the Spirit we uphold it as God's righteousness, but we are not longer under it...meaning we will not be condemned by being under a New Covenant which says that we are justified by faith in Christ. But to follow the Law apart from the Spirit is death, it must be on our hearts. The point is, if we are saying that the written Law is what needs to be followed in order to achieve justification, then we must commit to following the whole of the written Law, even those things that Jesus fulfilled.

 

[RND]

RND,

I don't think you are reading my posts, because I have actually answered all of the questions you put forth in your last one, except this new one...

With all due respect I don't think you've answered the questions I asked very well.

What standard to those people have to obey that don't believe in Christ? Do they have a law written on their hearts?

Romans 8 says that those in the flesh can not please God, because they need the law of the Spirit of life to be set free. Jesus came in the flesh so that the righteous requirement of the law could be fulfilled...something man can not do for himself. Men who continue to walk in the flesh are at emnity with God, but those who walk in the Spirit have life and peace with God.

Romans 8:7 says specifically that those without the Spirit cannot "obey" God nor can they be subject to His law. Obviously then only those that have the Spirit can "obey" God and keep His law.

Those who try to follow the Law to be justified before God apart from Christ are walking in self-righteousness and are already condemned and at emnity with God because their mind is on the flesh.

I think that is an extremely "liberal" interpretation of something so painfully plain. Romans 8:7 says that "the carnal mind is enmity against God." It can in no way be "subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." So you obviously have it backwards. Only those of the Spirit can obey the law of God.

 

[lovely]

RND,

I am actually advocating that only those in the Spirit can, and do, obey God's law.

As far as me not answering your questions very well, that's a whole other story, and I am sorry that I am not able to come across clearly. I will leave the conversation, having said all I can on the topic, and maybe someone more articulate than I can answer better. The Lord bless you.

 

[RND]

Nightmare, I agree that Jesus fulfilled it, and I would go further and say that through the Spirit we uphold it as God's righteousness, but we are not longer under it...meaning we will not be condemned by being under a New Covenant which says that we are justified by faith in Christ.

You're never "under the law" unless you break the law.

A Christian that sins against his neighbor by getting angry with them without cause has still sinned and needs to repent of that sin. To say there is no law that they have broken is misleading and simply incorrect. A Christian, in a moment of indiscretion looks at a woman or male with lust in their eyes, has still sinned and broken the law and is in need of repentance of it!

But to follow the Law apart from the Spirit is death, it must be on our hearts. The point is, if we are saying that the written Law is what needs to be followed in order to achieve justification, then we must commit to following the whole of the written Law, even those things that Jesus fulfilled.

Conversely are you suggesting we can be justified by NOT following the law? Isn't that simply cheap grace?

 

[RND]

RND,

I am actually advocating that only those in the Spirit can, and do, obey God's law.

As far as me not answering your questions very well, that's a whole other story, and I am sorry that I am not able to come across clearly. I will leave the conversation, having said all I can on the topic, and maybe someone more articulate than I can answer better. The Lord bless you.

Thanks for that clarification, I appreciate it.

 

[Brother Lionel]

I have no idea. But please tell us why the difference choice of writing instrumentality has any bearing on the fundamental divine origin of these laws.

Well, for starters, God says that He does not alter the things that go from His lips. Secondly, the ten laws were written on stone to show its permanence while Moses wrote other laws on paper. Being that the earthly sanctuary was a pattern of the heavenly, we can get a clearer picture of why God did this.

The throne of God was represented by the mercy seat in the earthly sanctuary where the shikhana glory of God rested upon, and the two cherubim of gold represented the angels which minister to the Lord in heaven (Isaiah 6:1-3). The curtains in the Most Holy Place which were full of cherubim represent the countless number of angels surrounding the throne of God. So if all of these things typified the true throne, is it important to find out why the two tablets of stone were place inside the ark, directly underneath the mercy seat? I would say yes because David says:

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Righteousness and Judgment are at His throne. The "righteousness and judgment" here was typified by the tablets of stone which contained His ten divine, eternal principles. These principles represent righteousness because the bible declares that all of His commandments are righteousness (Psalm 119:172). They are also the also principles that will be used to judge man:

James 2:10-12
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Here the bible shows us that the Christians who accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior and “do His commandments†will give us the right to the tree of life and that we will be able to enter into the gates of the New Jerusalem. Nothing in the bible reveals to us that the laws of Moses typified anything in heaven save the true sacrifce, Jesus, which already took place and is no longer needed.

So, when we examine the pattern that God gave Moses in detail with the scriptures as our guide, we can see how the Ten Commandments are not just a set of laws which were "done away with" or "nailed to the cross". Furthermore, the bible says nothing of the sort. Every reference in the NT that teaches that the law is done away with is referring to the ceremonial laws which was completed with Jesus being our Lamb of God and the True Sacrifice.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I have no idea. But please tell us why the difference choice of writing instrumentality has any bearing on the fundamental divine origin of these laws.

Well, for starters, God says that He does not alter the things that go from His lips. Secondly, the ten laws were written on stone to show its permanence while Moses wrote other laws on paper. Being that the earthly sanctuary was a pattern of the heavenly, we can get a clearer picture of why God did this.

The throne of God was represented by the mercy seat in the earthly sanctuary where the shikhana glory of God rested upon, and the two cherubim of gold represented the angels which minister to the Lord in heaven (Isaiah 6:1-3). The curtains in the Most Holy Place which were full of cherubim represent the countless number of angels surrounding the throne of God. So if all of these things typified the true throne, is it important to find out why the two tablets of stone were place inside the ark, directly underneath the mercy seat? I would say yes because David says:

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.

Righteousness and Judgment are at His throne. The "righteousness and judgment" here was typified by the tablets of stone which contained His ten divine, eternal principles. These principles represent righteousness because the bible declares that all of His commandments are righteousness (Psalm 119:172). They are also the also principles that will be used to judge man:

James 2:10-12
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

Here the bible shows us that the Christians who accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior and “do His commandments†will give us the right to the tree of life and that we will be able to enter into the gates of the New Jerusalem. Nothing in the bible reveals to us that the laws of Moses typified anything in heaven save the true sacrifce, Jesus, which already took place and is no longer needed.

So, when we examine the pattern that God gave Moses in detail with the scriptures as our guide, we can see how the Ten Commandments are not just a set of laws which were "done away with" or "nailed to the cross". Furthermore, the bible says nothing of the sort. Every reference in the NT that teaches that the law is done away with is referring to the ceremonial laws which was completed with Jesus being our Lamb of God and the True Sacrifice.

GOOD POST

 

[Brother Lionel]

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[Brother Lionel]

Nightmare, I agree that Jesus fulfilled it, and I would go further and say that through the Spirit we uphold it as God's righteousness, but we are not longer under it...meaning we will not be condemned by being under a New Covenant which says that we are justified by faith in Christ. But to follow the Law apart from the Spirit is death, it must be on our hearts. The point is, if we are saying that the written Law is what needs to be followed in order to achieve justification, then we must commit to following the whole of the written Law, even those things that Jesus fulfilled.

Hey lovely, it appears that there is a disconnect between the two persepectives. Please be advised that we are not referring to justification or keeping the law in order to be justified/saved. The law can not, never was able to, and was never meant to save us. The only truth that can save us is Jesus dying on the cross for our sins. The law was meant to direct us to that truth. We are addressing that stage in a Christian's life AFTER salvation and justification takes place. After one accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, how do they live? Do they live according to the Ten Principles of God or are they "free" from obeying them?

 

[Ben Joiner]

I have attempted to summarize Brother Lionel's main argument. for now 10 commandments=10C Basically, it involves almost everything those who share his view have said.

1 Heavenly Tabernacle and Earthly Taberbacle are similar
2 Therefore the parts of Heavenly Tabernacle and Earthly Taberbacle are similar
3 The Throne of Heavenly Tabernacle is surrounded by Righteousness and Judgement
4 The Throne of Earthly Taberbacle contains 10C
5 Therefore 10C is similar to Righteousness and Judgement

Valid. For fun, if the conclusion was Righteousness and Judgement are IDENTICAL to 10C, then
Non Sequitur, although it does logically follow that Righteousness and Judgement are similar to 10C. You cannot base the claim that they are identical on their locations which are different. I am not saying that they are not identical, but rather that this argument doesn't prove it.

Righteousness and Judgement are similar to 10C
Righteousness and Judgement do not change
Righteousness and Judgement are general and apply to all situations
Therefore Righteousness and Judgement cannot be similar to specific laws that apply to specific situations
Therefore 10C is general and applies to all situations

Non Sequitur: God's Righteousness and Judgment can lead Him to impose laws that apply to certain situations. Since such laws are based upon God's righteousness and Judgment, they are similar to it. One's belief in being dry can stay the same while he only considers it right to wear a coat when it is raining.

Furthermore, based on this logic, God's Ceremonial laws cannot be similar to His Righteous Judgement, because you claimed they do not apply to all situations. If they have no similarity, then they are unrighteous and no one would ever be judged for failing to follow them in any situation.

1 The Bible declares that all God's commandments are Righteous
2 God's righteousness is always applicable
3 Therefore commands cannot be righteous and also apply to only a specific time/place

Again, Non Sequitur a righteous moral code can lead to certain commands in certain situations. Said commands can later no longer apply while said righteousness does. I may tell you to warm up the stove but all for the purpose of sitting down and eating dinner, at which time the command to warm up the stove becomes inapplicable. There seems to be a failure to see the possibility that the 10C could be part of a larger plan.

Let me stop here, If you want my veiw, then I can give it, I just wanna weed out misunderstandings and find out exactly what points people agree/disagree on. I saw all the arguments from the NT as red-herrings, because no reason for why the distinction between ceremonial and commandment were given. It seemed dumb to move forward when such basic points of contact could not be established. So I have 2 questions

1 How do you arrive at the conclusion of which laws are ceremonial and which are commandments?
2 Is it possible that the 10C are part of a larger righteous plan of God?
Please, everyone answer 2, is it possible? I'm not asking you to agree, just take a stance.

 

[lovely]

Brother Lionel,

I understand. I also want to make it clear that I was not advocating disobedience to God, or 'cheap grace' as RND put it...which I believe is another misunderstanding in this thread. We who are 'in Christ' have the law written on our hearts, are now able to obey God in the Spirit. I believe, though, that the law that is written in our hearts is two-fold in principal. Love God with all, and your neighbor as yourself, and all the rest flow from those two. As we walk forward in the Spirit, after being justified, we are being conformed to the image of Christ, we are compelled to walk as Christ walked in complete love of God and man, and in obedience to the will of the Father. We are no longer under the law, condemned by the law, but as I mentioned in two other posts walking in the Spirit is the onIy path that upholds the law and reveals the righteousness of God in us. I believe that the Ten Commandments fall into the 'all the rest' category, and that the laws written on our hearts surpass those written down...as Jesus conveys to us in the Sermon on the Mount.

So, I abide in Christ, walk in liberty, obeying the spirit of the law, having the law on my heart constantly compelling me to fear God, love Him and others, trust and obey His commands, and do good works in the name of Jesus. A faith walk characterized by dying to myself and living by faith unto God.

 

[turnorburn]

Matthew 22: 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.


turnorburn

 

[Free]

Here is what I wrote earlier and I think it bears mentioning again:

"I think one of the main problems with thinking that we need to keep the Ten Commandments is that this would mean that things such as murder and stealing are wrong because they are written down. It would follow then that anything not written down in them would not be wrong.

But that clearly is not the case. The Ten Commandments point out things which are wrong regardless of them being written down. This means that there are also other things which are wrong which are not written down."

The Christian view is much larger than merely the Ten Commandments. To argue that Christians should keep the Ten Commandments is to miss the forest for the trees. It is worth mentioning Matthew 22:36-40:

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." (ESV)

Notice that Jesus mentions two commandments, one in v. 37 and the other in v. 39. These are laws found in Deut. 6:5 and Lev. 19:18, respectively. What is interesting is that the first four of the Ten commandments fit under Matt. 22:37 and the last six fit under v. 39, yet they also encompass "all the Law and the Prophets."

Drew is correct that Christians are no longer under the Law and have been given the Spirit to guide us.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. (ESV)

Living according to the Spirit will automatically include obeying the Ten Commandments since they state things that are wrong regardless of whether or not they were written down on stone or paper. To focus on the written Ten Commandments is to not live according to the Spirit since it ignores the larger picture in favour of a few pixels.

 

[RND]

1 How do you arrive at the conclusion of which laws are ceremonial and which are commandments?

Ceremonial laws were part of a larger ceremonial ritual picture. For example, certain sacrifices held on certain feast days were part of ceremonial ritual. The day of atonement had certain ceremonial rituals to be followed. These differed from the daily ceremonial sacrifices for sin.

The Ten Commandments contained no such ceremonies. There were no ceremonies or rituals surrounding the breaking of the 7th commandment or the 10th commandment.

2 Is it possible that the 10C are part of a larger righteous plan of God? Please, everyone answer 2, is it possible? I'm not asking you to agree, just take a stance.

Without a doubt! If there is anyone here that doesn't believe that the Ten Commandments have always been and forever will be the ultimate expression of God's character, His nature and the foundation of His eternal government then they are simply fooling themselves.

"Christ, Not the Law, Crucified.--The law of the ten commandments lives and will live through the eternal ages. The need for the service of sacrifices and offerings ceased when type met antitype in the death of Christ. In Him the shadow reached the substance. The Lamb of God was the complete and perfect offering." - S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6 (1956), page 1116, paragraph 1

"The children of Israel were addicted to licentiousness, idolatry, gluttony, and gross vices. This is ever the result of slavery. But the Lord looked upon his people, and after their deliverance, he educated them. They were not left uncared for. Though they had lost in years of bondage the knowledge of the true God and of his holy law, yet God again revealed himself to them. In terrible grandeur and awful majesty he proclaimed to them his holy precepts, and commanded them to obey his law. The ten commandments are a transcript of the divine character, and are as unchangeable as the eternal throne." - The Review and Herald, December 17, 1895

"The law of ten commandments is not to be looked upon as much from the prohibitory side, as from the mercy side. Its prohibitions are the sure guarantee of happiness in obedience. As received in Christ, it works in us the purity of character that will bring joy to us through eternal ages. To the obedient it is a wall of protection. We behold in it the goodness of God, who by revealing to men the immutable principles of righteousness, seeks to shield them from the evils that result from transgression." - Manuscript Releases Volume One, page 130

 

[RND]

Living according to the Spirit will automatically include obeying the Ten Commandments since they state things that are wrong regardless of whether or not they were written down on stone or paper.

That's correct. In fact the only way to truly follow and be obedient to the law of God is through the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:7). And yet there are people that live according to these same principles expressed in the Ten Commandments that have never heard of the Holy Spirit - these are a law unto themselves!

To focus on the written Ten Commandments is to not live according to the Spirit since it ignores the larger picture in favour of a few pixels.

So we should never read the Bible to seek the deeper meaning of scripture? Or is scripture wrong when is says we should consider the law of God daily?

Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Lazy Christianity assumes that as long has they "live in the Spirit" that somehow the Spirit will constantly keep them from every temptation the devil throws at them. Yet we are challenged to constantly study and learn from the word of God.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

ALL scripture is God breathed and therefore it is profitable for doctrine (teaching), reproof, correction and how to live righteously. I assume then this also means the Ten Commandments. I love the way the NLT puts it: All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right.

"To teach us what is true." Are the Ten Commandments true?

 

[wavy]

The Ten Commandments contained no such ceremonies. There were no ceremonies or rituals surrounding the breaking of the 7th commandment or the 10th commandment.

And what about the fourth?


Finis,
Eric

 

[wavy]

But if that were the case, why did God engrave the commandments in stone with His finger and commanded Moses to write the other laws in a book, on paper? If God did not want to differentiate the laws, He couldve told Moses to write the Ten Commandments also. But the fact that He didnt use Moses to inscribe the Ten Commandments leads us to believe that He did this for the purpose of letting us know how eternal and unchangable these ten laws are.

Setting aside the issue of the two distinct versions of the ten commandments (in Exodus xx & xxxiv respectively) none of this follows at all, but the reason is already given in the text: God stopped speaking because the people became afraid. And it doesn't matter anyway; everything in the ten commandments is repeated outside of them.


Finis,
ELB

 

[RND]

The Ten Commandments contained no such ceremonies. There were no ceremonies or rituals surrounding the breaking of the 7th commandment or the 10th commandment.

And what about the fourth?


Finis,
Eric

What about it? The morning and evening sacrifices (continual burnt offering) were performed on the sabbath as they were every day. In addition the sabbath had it's own burnt offering which was offered every sabbath.

Does this somehow negate the requirements of the sabbath commandment in your eyes?

 

[wavy]

What about it? The morning and evening sacrifices (continual burnt offering) were performed on the sabbath as they were every day. In addition the sabbath had it's own burnt offering which was offered every sabbath.

Does this somehow negate the requirements of the sabbath commandment in your eyes?

Naturally as a non-believer the Pentateuch isn't of much interest to me other than as a work of history, so it obviously isn't a question of 'negating' requirements.

But anyway, as you seem to know, there were ritual sacrifices carried out on the Sabbath, which contradicts what you said earlier about none of the ten commandments being associated with 'ceremony'.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Free]

And yet there are people that live according to these same principles expressed in the Ten Commandments that have never heard of the Holy Spirit - these are a law unto themselves!

You are missing the point. The Ten Commandments are just a part of the sense of the total morality which comes from God that people tend to have. This is why Christians typically state that morality is absolute.

But God gave them as the beginning of the Law; they are the foundation of the Law--the rest of the Law and prophets are based on them. That is the reason they were written down.

And the only people who would live according to the same principles expressed in the Ten Commandments are Jews. One might be able to make an argument for Muslims as well but beyond that, no one keeps the Sabbath or refrains from worshiping other gods.