Should women teach in the church?

[JLB]

i ask for scriptures that says women can pastor.

I believe that a women should not teach over a man.

On the over hand I don’t see any scriptures that forbid a women to be a pastor.

If you have a scripture that forbids women from being a Pastor then please share.

For me personally, if a man is called to be a Pastor, (which we don’t really have much of in the New Testament in the way of guidelines) then his wife should function with him, (being one with him), in some capacity; as his helpmate.


JLB

 

[JLB]

untill i can read scripture that shows me i am wrong. were in a deadlock

To me there is more to this discussion than some “deadlock”.

For me, I haven’t began to scratch the surface in this discussion, because there is much to be discussed yet.

If you have exhausted your capacity for gaining wisdom in this matter then so be it.

If you have a direct question for me, that you feel has not been answered, then please ask. The subject of women usurping a man’s authority has been discussed and I have stated that a women should not seek to usurp the authority of a man in a leadership position, whether her husband or a pastor or leader in the Church.


However, there are circumstances where a women does indeed have authority over a man.

I would like to discuss both sides of this statement, which is why I asked the is question from Proverbs 26:4-5.

again

Which one of the following scriptures is the truth, even though they say exactly the opposite of each other?

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Proverbs 26:5


JLB

 

[jerry63935]

If you have exhausted your capacity for gaining wisdom in this matter then so be it.

ya know i have been rather respectful towards you.. the only thing exhausted is trying to get you to give me scripture that shows a woman can preach/pastor. i have been respectful in posting about women in the Church. I,M not playing games . every time i have posted my view. i used scriptures . all i get from you is tippy toe around the subject.

 

[jerry63935]

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Proverbs 26:5

am i a fool because i challenge you using scripture ?

 

[jerry63935]

On the over hand I don’t see any scriptures that forbid a women to be a pastor.

well then this ends our discussion i have showed scripture .careful you dont add to or take away the word so you can be right

 

[Hopeful]

I mentioned what Jesus Himself mentioned.
Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

• go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

I don’t see anywhere in this text, where a brother in Christ, a believer, a member of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, is considered as someone who was “never saved” if he sins against another brother.

There were no "brothers in Christ" when Jesus taught that.
Only familial, or national brothers.
The jist of His teaching is right on, in the days before we could be brothers in Christ with God as our Father.
But if a supposed brother in Christ were to commit a sin against me now, it would show that he wasn't my brother, having a different father than I.

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

The last option, however, for the brother who sins against another brother, is to inform the church (elders; leadership) to try and convince the brother to repent and be forgiven, if he refuses then he is to be considered as a heathen (unbeliever) and a tax collector.

That remedy works today as well as in Jesus' time with his Jewish brothers.
Perhaps the poser will actually repent permanently this time.

No where in the New Testament is the idea of a brother in Christ who does sin against another brother, that he was never saved to begin with.

We have different ideas about the death of the old man of sin and rebirth from God's seed.
If a man commits sin, he hasn't converted from being a servant of sin and unto a servant of God.
The unconverted won't be saved on the day of judgement.

 

[Hopeful]

We are not discussing people before there conversion.

If they converted, would their fruit remain filthy?
I don't think so.

John who was an elderly man, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, when he wrote 1 John.
John included himself in the narrative he was writing about which was sin, by the pronouns of we, our, us in the following passage.

Yes, he did, using the "IF" to present two very different kinds of walk.
"IF" we walk in darkness, opposed by "IF we walk in the light.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8-2:2

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The first thing we see, is if we as a born again Christian, a child of God, say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. And the truth is not in us, which is the opposite of what you teach.
(John includes himself; “we”)

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John continues his exhortation which includes himself, by saying if we, as born again Christian’s confess our sins, He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You should have "bolded" the "IF" instead of the "WE".
One walks in the light, which is God, (and we know there is no sin in God), and the other walks in sin. (Pro 4:19)

Do you believe unbelievers, who do not believe in Jesus, (Muslims for example) can ask God to forgive them and cleanse them of their sins, and be forgiven and cleansed, while remaining an unbeliever in Christ?

Nope, as they would have to give up all that was worldly, anti-Christian, to even be heard by God.
They are the "any man" of 1 John 2:1.

• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (believers) and also for those who have yet to believe in the Son, and the price He paid for our sins.

Amen to that.
Let us pray that all men will forsake sin in order to be heard by God. (John 9:31, 1 Peter 3:12)

 

[Hopeful]

As I pointed out earlier, your Scriptural reference is wrong. The verse that you incorrectly cite says, in context , "I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head." 1 Corinthians 11:2-6

Clearly this is discussing the head as part of the body, not rank. The head is the part of the body that is responsible for consciousness. It does not mean authority in the context that it is used. For example, "Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved."

Does your ankle have the same "rank" as your eyes?
I don't suppose you wish to insert your own "customs" in place of the apostle Paul's?
I hope not.

The last phrase is "then she should cover her head" clearly does not mean that she should cover the man in authority over her. My advice: stop twisting the meaning of Scripture!

I had never thought of it that way, as a woman is given long hair as her physical covering.
Spiritually, the rank is God, Jesus, man, woman.
That will never change.
In fact, those who wish to elevate women in that rank have already raised man over God...much to their shame.

 

[JLB]

There were no "brothers in Christ" when Jesus taught that.

So you believe Jesus words only apply to the people He spoke directly to that were living when He was alive?

That is what you are trying to use to prop up your “doctrine” that teaches us if a brother in Christ sins against his brother, he was never really born again.

His instructions involve getting the church to go to the brother who sins against his brother to convince him to repent, so your theory doesn’t hold up.


And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:17


Jesus’ words of instruction are for the church today just as they were in the first century.



JLB

 

[JLB]

If they converted, would their fruit remain filthy?
I don't think so.

If they obey the sin in their physical body, their fruit will be filthy.


People who have been born again, still have a physical body that contains sin, which is why we are admonished to walk according to the Spirit, and not the flesh.

We who have the Spirit within us, are not to allow sin in our flesh to rule over us, that we should obey it.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


Notice that Paul is speaking to water baptized Christians.



JLB

 

[JLB]

i have showed scripture .careful you dont add to or take away the word so you can be right

Ok, please show me the scripture that says God forbids women from being a pastor.



JLB

 

[jerry63935]

Ok, please show me the scripture that says God forbids women from being a pastor.



JLB

no sir were done i showed you only thing it words as a bishop which is a type over seer of pastors which in turn has to have been a pastor himself. how do you oversee a position you know nothing about? i am done with this each reply instead of answering the question. you in turn answer with a question i have showed you in acts where men was chosen in timothy and Titus. one last time this does not make the woman lower or less than a man. it simply means God put the greater responsibility on leadership. to the man.

unless you provided scripture were done

 

[jaybo]

There were no "brothers in Christ" when Jesus taught that.
Only familial, or national brothers.
The jist of His teaching is right on, in the days before we could be brothers in Christ with God as our Father.
But if a supposed brother in Christ were to commit a sin against me now, it would show that he wasn't my brother, having a different father than I.

That remedy works today as well as in Jesus' time with his Jewish brothers.
Perhaps the poser will actually repent permanently this time.

We have different ideas about the death of the old man of sin and rebirth from God's seed.
If a man commits sin, he hasn't converted from being a servant of sin and unto a servant of God.
The unconverted won't be saved on the day of judgement.

Everyone sins, including Christians. And all are forgiven. The difference is that Christians have accepted Christ's sacrifice on their behalf.

1 John 1:8 (written to Christians): "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

 

[jaybo]

Does your ankle have the same "rank" as your eyes?
I don't suppose you wish to insert your own "customs" in place of the apostle Paul's?
I hope not.

I had never thought of it that way, as a woman is given long hair as her physical covering.
Spiritually, the rank is God, Jesus, man, woman.
That will never change.
In fact, those who wish to elevate women in that rank have already raised man over God...much to their shame.

This is unBiblical conjecture. You are just trying to justify your false dominance over women.

 

[JLB]

no sir were done i showed you

You haven't shown any such scripture that says a woman is forbidden to be a pastor.

I think we agree that a woman is not to usurp authority over a man.

However I have to find a scripture that's says a woman can not be called as a Pastor.

Try to be honest.


JLB

 

[JLB]

no sir were done i showed you only thing it words as a bishop which is a type over seer of pastors which in turn has to have been a pastor himself. how do you oversee a position you know nothing about? i am done with this each reply instead of answering the question. you in turn answer with a question i have showed you in acts where men was chosen in timothy and Titus. one last time this does not make the woman lower or less than a man. it simply means God put the greater responsibility on leadership. to the man.

unless you provided scripture were done

Please show me some passages from Acts or the New Testament about Pastors and their role in the Church leadership structure, so I can study what you believe to be true about this subject.






JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You haven't shown any such scripture that says a woman is forbidden to be a pastor.

I think we agree that a woman is not to usurp authority over a man.

However I have to find a scripture that's says a woman can not be called as a Pastor.

Try to be honest.


JLB

A pastor without teaching and leadership authority is not a pastor and so we should not call them one. A pastor or elder or overseer is a leader who has teaching and leadership authority over the congregation to which the congregation is to submit.

Hebrews 13:17
17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account.

Paul says women are not permitted to seize this authority by reason of order in creation, and because Eve was the one deceived, not the man. Women are simply not called to occupy these positions of teaching authority. That's why Paul uses the word 'authentein'. They are usurping and seizing and exercising an authority they do not have by reason of creation. And so this is not to be permitted.

 

[jerry63935]

when a person takes the time to show in scripture How God put the man as the head./ that does NOT make the women the sole of the shoe!!!!!!! it means God want the man to take the lead.. its not hard to understand.. no there is no scripture that reads thus saith the Lord women can not be pastors. . what it says if any Man desires the office the 12 apostles was men the 7 chosen in acts was men... it does not take a rocket scientist to under stand . he chose Men .

i am very tired of this subject very tired of having to show the same scriptures time after time. JLB if you want the truth in scripture .there is NO scripture that reads you can or you can not lose salvation 2 . in leadership it plainly tells us God wants man to lead as pastor.. man holds the greater judgement

you have asked a lot of questions that tip toes around the subject . i am not going to keep discussing a subject on what if .or is.. i been polite used respect.. we have a saying around here like a mule looking at a new gate. where did that come from? solo scripture ---The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings”—referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

 

[JLB]

A pastor without teaching and leadership authority is not a pastor and so we should not call them one. A pastor or elder or overseer is a leader who has teaching and leadership authority over the congregation to which the congregation is to submit.

Hebrews 13:17
17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account.

Paul says women are not permitted to seize this authority by reason of order in creation, and because Eve was the one deceived, not the man. Women are simply not called to occupy these positions of teaching authority. That's why Paul uses the word 'authentein'. They are usurping and seizing and exercising an authority they do not have by reason of creation. And so this is not to be permitted.

Since we all seem to have varying perspectives in this matter, then it’s probably best to list the passages that speak to us about the role of the Pastor in the church leadership structure.

So far I have agreed with most of what you have said.


However it’s one thing to say, women should not usurp authority over a man, or teach over a man.


It’s quite another thing to say… Women are forbidden to be Pastors.


We know that the older women should teach the younger women.

We know that women are to teach their children, whether male or female.

We know that children are to obey their parents.

Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord. Colossians 3:20


One role that may be suited for the woman to teach in would be an orphanage. Loving and teaching as well as looking after the needs of orphans, whether male or female, to me would be acceptable for a woman to be in that role.

What do you think?



JLB

 

[JLB]

when a person takes the time to show in scripture How God put the man as the head.

I don’t know of anyone who disagrees with the fact that the man is the head of the woman.

I believe we have moved on from that point.

Now I have asked you to prove your point from scripture that says women are forbidden from being Pastors.

Please list the scriptures that pertain to Pastors, and their function in the church.



JLB