Bible Study Sinless Perfection in Christ

[for_his_glory]

Sinless "perfection" means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects. The action or "process" of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible.

1John 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Do we willingly continue in our sins once we are Spiritually born again from above? No, for if we do then there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27.

We now have an Advocate (Christ Jesus) that sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us when we do sin at times. 1John 2:1-2. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but yet being housed in this fleshly body that is still mortal and corruptable where the sin nature dwells we will stumble at times. We are only being made perfect until we receive perfection in Christ when our redemption draws near in the coming of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

The word "holiness" means set apart or purposefully different. It doesn't mean "perfection". God being holy and perfect means He is completely different than the imperfect world we live in and He is perfect, meaning He upholds every aspect of righteousness all the time because He is God. It is that same perfection that is seen in the Father that we strive for everyday of our lives here on earth. We are made righteous by that of God's righteousness as our own is as a filthy rag to God.

While here on earth we do strive to be holy as we draw closer to God and learn of Him, but yet we will never achieve full perfection until this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality. This can only happen when Christ returns and we are changed by the Holy Spirit to be then made perfect as we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

God knows we will stumble and fall short at times as we are yet humans, but God is greater than the mistakes we make and is always there to pick us up, dust us off and set our feet straight again when we humble ourselves before Him. All our sins have been forgiven and we have been made clean again in our spirit by the blood of Christ as we are Spiritually born again from above and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.

That which you struggle with in this world the battle belongs to the Lord and He will always walk with you no matter what you are going through as He will bring you out victorious over the enemy that tries to buffet us.

2 Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Sinless "perfection" means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects. The action or "process" of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible.

1John 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Do we willingly continue in our sins once we are Spiritually born again from above? No, for if we do then there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27.

We now have an Advocate (Christ Jesus) that sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us when we do sin at times. 1John 2:1-2. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but yet being housed in this fleshly body that is still mortal and corruptable where the sin nature dwells we will stumble at times. We are only being made perfect until we receive perfection in Christ when our redemption draws near in the coming of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

The word "holiness" means set apart or purposefully different. It doesn't mean "perfection". God being holy and perfect means He is completely different than the imperfect world we live in and He is perfect, meaning He upholds every aspect of righteousness all the time because He is God. It is that same perfection that is seen in the Father that we strive for everyday of our lives here on earth. We are made righteous by that of God's righteousness as our own is as a filthy rag to God.

While here on earth we do strive to be holy as we draw closer to God and learn of Him, but yet we will never achieve full perfection until this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality. This can only happen when Christ returns and we are changed by the Holy Spirit to be then made perfect as we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

God knows we will stumble and fall short at times as we are yet humans, but God is greater than the mistakes we make and is always there to pick us up, dust us off and set our feet straight again when we humble ourselves before Him. All our sins have been forgiven and we have been made clean again in our spirit by the blood of Christ as we are Spiritually born again from above and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.

That which you struggle with in this world the battle belongs to the Lord and He will always walk with you no matter what you are going through as He will bring you out victorious over the enemy that tries to buffet us.

2 Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Great post, after reading it my mind went to: https://biblehub.com/bsb/romans/6.htm

Love, Walter

 

[for_his_glory]

Great post, after reading it my mind went to: https://biblehub.com/bsb/romans/6.htm

Love, Walter

Praise the Lord we are no longer a slave to willful sin as we are made righteous in the righteousness of God.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Praise the Lord we are no longer a slave to willful sin as we are made righteous in the righteousness of God.

Praise The Lord Jesus Christ for His righteousness endures forever to follow: https://biblehub.com/1_peter/2-21.htm

 

[Hopeful]

Sinless "perfection" means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects. The action or "process" of improving something until it is faultless or as faultless as possible.
1John 3:9-10 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Do we willingly continue in our sins once we are Spiritually born again from above? No, for if we do then there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27.

Great, so far.

We now have an Advocate (Christ Jesus) that sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us when we do sin at times.

But now you have contradicted the above???

1John 2:1-2. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but yet being housed in this fleshly body that is still mortal and corruptable where the sin nature dwells we will stumble at times. We are only being made perfect until we receive perfection in Christ when our redemption draws near in the coming of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

Was just reading Mark 2:22 this evening: Jesus' parable of new wine must be put in new vessels.
You are concluding the new wine (Spirit) was put in old vessels (bodies/vessels).
I can't agree with that.

1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
The word "holiness" means set apart or purposefully different. It doesn't mean "perfection". God being holy and perfect means He is completely different than the imperfect world we live in and He is perfect, meaning He upholds every aspect of righteousness all the time because He is God. It is that same perfection that is seen in the Father that we strive for everyday of our lives here on earth. We are made righteous by that of God's righteousness as our own is as a filthy rag to God.

If we can't do it, it is pointless to try.
Thankfully though, it is possible.
We are new creatures after rebirth.
Holy creatures, reborn of God's seed.

While here on earth we do strive to be holy as we draw closer to God and learn of Him, but yet we will never achieve full perfection until this corruptible puts on incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality. This can only happen when Christ returns and we are changed by the Holy Spirit to be then made perfect as we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

God knows we will stumble and fall short at times as we are yet humans, but God is greater than the mistakes we make and is always there to pick us up, dust us off and set our feet straight again when we humble ourselves before Him. All our sins have been forgiven and we have been made clean again in our spirit by the blood of Christ as we are Spiritually born again from above and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30.

That which you struggle with in this world the battle belongs to the Lord and He will always walk with you no matter what you are going through as He will bring you out victorious over the enemy that tries to buffet us.

2 Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[for_his_glory]

Great, so far.

But now you have contradicted the above???

Was just reading Mark 2:22 this evening: Jesus' parable of new wine must be put in new vessels.
You are concluding the new wine (Spirit) was put in old vessels (bodies/vessels).
I can't agree with that.

If we can't do it, it is pointless to try.
Thankfully though, it is possible.
We are new creatures after rebirth.
Holy creatures, reborn of God's seed.

Notice where the definition of perfection means as free as "possible". The action or "process", "as faultless as possible"

Do you not see in that definition those things I have pointed out? None of us are perfect and sinless perfection comes against scripture as many of us have been trying to get you to see. It was John Wesley that taught this deception as it is being taught today in the Methodist and The Nazarene Church to name two churches.

Nothing has been contradicted as Christ Jesus is our advocate before the Father if you believe the scriptures.

No I am not concluding that new wine can be put into old wine skins. Can you not see the different between our flesh and our spirit? It is our spirit/soul that is made Spiritually renewed again, not the flesh. Flesh and Spirit can not mix and will always battle each other as this fleshly body is corruptible.

The point is, is that none of us can be completely perfect while we are housed in this fleshly corruptible body as the flesh wants what the flesh wants. Perfection in Christ is a process that we let Him work in us as we crucify this flesh daily pressing more and more into Christ.

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Where in those verses does it say we are sinless here on earth as I read we will be changed before we are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Being completely sinless while here on earth will never happen, but we strive to be holy and without blame before the Father. Do not let sin rule your life.

 

[Hopeful]

Notice where the definition of perfection means as free as "possible". The action or "process", "as faultless as possible"

Do you not see in that definition those things I have pointed out? None of us are perfect and sinless perfection comes against scripture as many of us have been trying to get you to see. It was John Wesley that taught this deception as it is being taught today in the Methodist and The Nazarene Church to name two churches.

Nothing has been contradicted as Christ Jesus is our advocate before the Father if you believe the scriptures.

No I am not concluding that new wine can be put into old wine skins. Can you not see the different between our flesh and our spirit? It is our spirit/soul that is made Spiritually renewed again, not the flesh. Flesh and Spirit can not mix and will always battle each other as this fleshly body is corruptible.

The point is, is that none of us can be completely perfect while we are housed in this fleshly corruptible body as the flesh wants what the flesh wants. Perfection in Christ is a process that we let Him work in us as we crucify this flesh daily pressing more and more into Christ.

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Where in those verses does it say we are sinless here on earth as I read we will be changed before we are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Being completely sinless while here on earth will never happen, but we strive to be holy and without blame before the Father. Do not let sin rule your life.

Here are just a few of the verses I have gleaned concerning sinless perfection here and now...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

It is not only possible, it is commanded in Matt 5:48.
It doesn't matter if you are knock-kneed and cross-eyed, as we will not be judged for those physical things.
It is the new, reborn, inner man, that "steers the car".

 

[for_his_glory]

Truthfrees are you also sinless as in never stumbling at times?

 

[for_his_glory]

Here are just a few of the verses I have gleaned concerning sinless perfection here and now...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

It is not only possible, it is commanded in Matt 5:48.
It doesn't matter if you are knock-kneed and cross-eyed, as we will not be judged for those physical things.
It is the new, reborn, inner man, that "steers the car".

I'm not talking about willful sin as no one who is Christ own will willfully sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Truthfrees are you also sinless as in never stumbling at times?

Of course.
It is written..."He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." (1 John 2:10)
I walk in the light, thanks be to God.
so can any person who will subject themselves to Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm not talking about willful sin as no one who is Christ own will willfully sin.

All sin is willful, as it requires, as per James 1:14-15..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
How can all of that happen 'accidently'?

 

[for_his_glory]

Of course.
It is written..."He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." (1 John 2:10)
I walk in the light, thanks be to God.
so can any person who will subject themselves to Christ.

Are you Truthfrees, please do not answer for other people.

 

[eddif]

Was just reading Mark 2:22 this evening: Jesus' parable of new wine must be put in new vessels.
You are concluding the new wine (Spirit) was put in old vessels (bodies/vessels).
I can't agree with that.

I thought the Pharisees were rigid old wineskins that had no room for slight fermentation.
Rigid the woman was caught in adultery — stone her.

The new wine was to restore the woman in a new flexible skin that would take understanding failure to be perfect.

I thought the daily putting to death was because the old dead man kept trying to come alive and had to be continually put down, till the last trump.

Of course I am just a Mississippi redneck and ignorant to understanding Jewsh wineskins.

eddif

 

[JLB]

Great, so far.

But now you have contradicted the above???

Was just reading Mark 2:22 this evening: Jesus' parable of new wine must be put in new vessels.
You are concluding the new wine (Spirit) was put in old vessels (bodies/vessels).
I can't agree with that.

If we can't do it, it is pointless to try.
Thankfully though, it is possible.
We are new creatures after rebirth.
Holy creatures, reborn of God's seed.

Here is how Jesus taught us to deal with a brother who sins.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

Jesus taught us, if a brother should sin against us we should go to him in an effort to confront him about his sin, as well as turn him back to be restored.


There is no doubt that Jesus and the earth Church viewed sin much differently that we do today in our modern culture. If we expect to remain in Christ, we must take heed to the teachings of Jesus Christ, our Lord and King.

• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

Having another brother, to try and bring repentance is the next step.

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

It’s undeniable that Jesus is teaching His disciples, who then will continue to teach their disciples so the Church, as it grows will be established in His doctrine.


Those who desire to willfully continue in unrepentant sin, are to be considered as sinners, separated from Christ, as tax collectors and heathen. These must repent and turn back to God is they expect to be restored to Christ.


As we see by the words of Christ, If he hears you, you have gained your brother, a brother who does repent continues to be a brother in Christ.


Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22



If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:9-10











JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Are you Truthfrees, please do not answer for other people.

Sorry.
I hadn't noticed the side-step you did by confronting a "watcher".
I thought it was our conversation.
Again, sorry.

 

[Hopeful]

I thought the Pharisees were rigid old wineskins that had no room for slight fermentation.
Rigid the woman was caught in adultery — stone her.

The new wine was to restore the woman in a new flexible skin that would take understanding failure to be perfect.

I thought the daily putting to death was because the old dead man kept trying to come alive and had to be continually put down, till the last trump.

Of course I am just a Mississippi redneck and ignorant to understanding Jewsh wineskins.

eddif

This is a derail here so I will keep it brief.
Wineskins are not mentioned in the verses of Mark 2.
Vessels are.
Your over thinking of it deprives you of the gist.
New Spirit...new creature.

 

[Hopeful]

Here is how Jesus taught us to deal with a brother who sins.
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

Jesus taught us, if a brother should sin against us we should go to him in an effort to confront him about his sin, as well as turn him back to be restored.
There is no doubt that Jesus and the earth Church viewed sin much differently that we do today in our modern culture. If we expect to remain in Christ, we must take heed to the teachings of Jesus Christ, our Lord and King.

• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

Having another brother, to try and bring repentance is the next step.

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector

It’s undeniable that Jesus is teaching His disciples, who then will continue to teach their disciples so the Church, as it grows will be established in His doctrine.
Those who desire to willfully continue in unrepentant sin, are to be considered as sinners, separated from Christ, as tax collectors and heathen. These must repent and turn back to God is they expect to be restored to Christ.
As we see by the words of Christ, If he hears you, you have gained your brother, a brother who does repent continues to be a brother in Christ.
Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:9-8.

I fail to see how that relates to my post?

 

[for_his_glory]

Years ago John Wesley, one of the founders of the Holiness Movement, introduced into the Christian community the idea that Christian perfection can be achieved in this life through a second work of grace - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Although his "Christian perfection" idea does excuse sins of ignorance. And thus many Holiness types have to maintain an ignorance of their own sinfulness in order to maintain their testimony that they have achieved such a state of perfection.

 

[JLB]

I fail to see how that relates to my post?

So you agree with the teaching of Jesus to His disciples?






JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Years ago John Wesley, one of the founders of the Holiness Movement, introduced into the Christian community the idea that Christian perfection can be achieved in this life through a second work of grace - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I don't remember that point from my studies of Wesley's writings.
Where did you see/hear it from?

Although his "Christian perfection" idea does excuse sins of ignorance. And thus many Holiness types have to maintain an ignorance of their own sinfulness in order to maintain their testimony that they have achieved such a state of perfection.

I haven't heard that either.
I do know that Wesley started out strongly preaching total obedience to God, but by the time of his death had watered it down to the world's level of obedience.
Such a shame.