Sinless Perfection; The Unsustainable Command?

[Consecrated Life]

Have you ever given this good news publicly in face to face to a gathered group of people , citing your own sinless life as an example ?

Many, many times.
However, usually "my" life doesn't come up till after I have described how obedience is achievable.

So what kind of response do you typically get when you tell these groups of sinners that unless they can achieve your level of obedience they are doomed to hell ?

 

[electedbyHim]

Thanks for such a good reply.
I like to say that God is perfection and we must miss the mark so many times during any day....let alone the times we know we have.

This does not make us sinners, but children of God that sin.

I do believe we walk in the light, but still we stumble.

Indeed.

We must pray for those who do not believe these truths.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Agreed, though you have to physically die too.

You are correct, as long as that physical death occurs with Christ at our "immersion" into Him and His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24)

 

[Hopeful 2]

According to the Bible we can sin and not even know it, and still need to confess it.

Leviticus 5:17-18 "Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment. "He is then to bring to the priest a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his error in which he sinned unintentionally and did not know it, and it will be forgiven him.

Psalm 19:12-13 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. Also keep back Your slave from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me; Then I will be blameless, And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

I am certain these verses will get twisted to fit the narrative.

You can't use OT scriptures that only applied to men in the flesh to foist sinfulness on those reborn of God's seed and walking in the Spirit.

Besides, how can you confess something you don't even know you did ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Thanks for such a good reply.
I like to say that God is perfection and we must miss the mark so many times during any day....let alone the times we know we have.

This does not make us sinners, but children of God that sin.

That would make 1 John 3:9 a lie.
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

I do believe we walk in the light, but still we stumble.

Don't you trust your repentance from sin ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

So what kind of response do you typically get when you tell these groups of sinners that unless they can achieve your level of obedience they are doomed to hell ?

Typically, first their voices go up a few degrees in volume and intensity.
Then the most dedicated defenders of sin trot out the usual reasons they say God gives for ongoing disobedience to Him.
But once in a while, one or two people will wait for the crowd to thin out a bit, and come over and earnestly ask me to explain more fully.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Typically, first their voices go up a few degrees in volume and intensity.
Then the most dedicated defenders of sin trot out the usual reasons they say God gives for ongoing disobedience to Him.
But once in a while, one or two people will wait for the crowd to thin out a bit, and come over and earnestly ask me to explain more fully.

So when you explained to your loved ones, Father , Mother, Sister , Brother, Spouse that your perfect sinlessness was the standard they all needed to achieve to avoid hell did their voices go up a few degrees in volume as well, as the family who knows you more intimately than the average group, reminded you of your own failures to conform to your claim thru the instances of your sins that only a Mother , Father, Brother , Sister , Spouse could know of occurring within the household setting ?
Or were they just to bewildered to even speak , let alone raise the volume of their voices

 

[electedbyHim]

You can't use OT scriptures that only applied to men in the flesh to foist sinfulness on those reborn of God's seed and walking in the Spirit.

Besides, how can you confess something you don't even know you did ?

Are you saying David was not saved?

I knew you would deny this.

Besides, how can you confess something you don't even know you did ?

If you have to ask, you did not read my post.

You cannot prove you are sinless, all you have is eisegesis with you Bible Scriptures, especially interpretitng 1 John.

People like you all have the same responses and Scriptures that they use to justify their preideful self-righteousness.

The real proof is what is your life like. So you have no proof that you are sinless, your words are worthless.

You are fooling nobody across the internet on a keyboard.

Those strong in the faith, that study the Scriptures know that you are not truthful in what you believe.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So when you explained to your loved ones, Father , Mother, Sister , Brother, Spouse that your perfect sinlessness was the standard they all needed to achieve to avoid hell did their voices go up a few degrees in volume as well,

My family has no knowledge of biblical things, so they all just kind of sat back, waiting for this new "me" to go away.
None of them have has yet converted to Christianity.

as the family who knows you more intimately than the average group, reminded you of your own failures to conform to your claim thru the instances of your sins that only a Mother , Father, Brother , Sister , Spouse could know of occurring within the household setting ?

I don't recall them doing so, though, had they chosen to, there would have been a long list.

Or were they just to bewildered to even speak , let alone raise the volume of their voices

I can't comment on their thoughts.
Since that time, the ones still alive have either shown absolutely no interest in things religious, or, have tried other routes to God.

 

[Consecrated Life]

My family has no knowledge of biblical things, so they all just kind of sat back, waiting for this new "me" to go away.
None of them have has yet converted to Christianity.

What was the emphasis of your talk with those you love, assuming you do love them, with regard to salvation ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Are you saying David was not saved?
I knew you would deny this.

I don't know what will happen to David, but I imagine as long as he adhered to the Law, his future salvation is assured

If you have to ask, you did not read my post.

OK, lets try it this way...
As "God heareth not sinners", (John 9:31), confessing unknown sins is pointless.

You cannot prove you are sinless, all you have is eisegesis with you Bible Scriptures, especially interpretitng 1 John.

You are, of course, correct.
But what is it about 1 John that you question ?

People like you all have the same responses and Scriptures that they use to justify their preideful self-righteousness.

As any righteousness a man may or may not have is of God, your point is moot.

The real proof is what is your life like. So you have no proof that you are sinless, your words are worthless.

I can't prove anything about my life, but as I am not important to the subject of perfect obedience to God, I let the verses by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and James do the talking.
Verses like these..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

I'm not asking folks to believe in me.
I am asking them to believe Jesus and Peter, and Paul, etc.

You are fooling nobody across the internet on a keyboard.

...or with the bible ?
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

Those strong in the faith, that study the Scriptures know that you are not truthful in what you believe.

Would that be the "truth" that Jesus said could free us from service to sin...in John 8:32-34 ?

As no man can serve two masters, even "loving the one and hating the other", (Matt 6:24), who do you think the servants of sin hate ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

What was the emphasis of your talk with those you love, assuming you do love them, with regard to salvation ?

To the best of my recollection, as it was a long time ago, my emphasis was just as it is here...obedience to God.
I can also remember discussing the freedoms that come with that obedience.
Freedom from tobacco, drugs, perversions, lying, thieving, alcoholism, drunk driving, and porn.
Those where just some of the things Jesus had freed me from.

 

[Consecrated Life]

To the best of my recollection, as it was a long time ago, my emphasis was just as it is here...obedience to God.
I can also remember discussing the freedoms that come with that obedience.
Freedom from tobacco, drugs, perversions, lying, thieving, alcoholism, drunk driving, and porn.
Those where just some of the things Jesus had freed me from.

I notice you make no mention of the Love of God in your talk to those you claim to love .
Only the burden of sin and the flesh .
Is it your understanding that was Jesus's approach to the perishing ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

I notice you make no mention of the Love of God in your talk to those you claim to love .
Only the burden of sin and the flesh .

It is kinda hard to remember every aspect of my talks.
My family were raised in religious backgrounds, so were well aware of the love of God.

Is it your understanding that was Jesus's approach to the perishing ?

I feel that Jesus used different approaches, depending on the audience.
The Pharisees got "both barrels", while the blind man was healed.
The adulterous woman got His own forgiveness, and the command to "sin no more".
I think Jesus concentrated on faith more than on obedience.
Real faith breeds obedience.

 

[electedbyHim]

As "God heareth not sinners", (John 9:31), confessing unknown sins is pointless.

John 9:31 “We know that God does not listen to sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He listens to him.
Davis did God's will. David was Chosen by God. David definitely was God-fearing. David was a man after Gods own heart.

You deny Psalm 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. According to you that verse is pointless.

But what is it about 1 John that you question ?

I do not question the Bible and what it teaches,

The point you are missing is that you misinterpret the passages that you believe teach sinless perfection.

I'm not asking folks to believe in me.
I am asking them to believe Jesus and Peter, and Paul, etc.

You are making the claim you are sinless, your words convey that you live a sinless life. If you really want people to believe you,your life will prove it. of course, over the internet.....well......you know.

A very tiny percentage of denominations teach Holiness and they have been debunked by their lives.

Not so, you have been in many forums trying to push your agenda and derail anyone who has scripture that deals with sin.

I am asking them to believe Jesus and Peter, and Paul, etc.

No one in the Bible taught sinless perfection. Nevertheless, that is how you interpret it.

Friend, it is you, your pastor and congregation that are self-decieved and preaching a different gospel. You and your like are taking verses out of context to justify a doctrine that sends a schism between believers, you put doubts in people minds.

This stems out of different movements, especially the Holiness movement and a false woman teacher.

The Holiness movement began in 1840 when a Methodist leader named Phoebe Palmer began to hold revivals and teach the necessity of holiness—and how to attain it. Groups and denominations historically associated with the Holiness movement include Wesleyans, Methodists, Nazarenes, and the Salvation Army. However, it should be noted that churches differ widely on doctrine, even within denominations. The Holiness movement did have a profound effect on the history of the church, particularly in North America during the Third Great Awakening. Holiness adherents are typically interested in obedience to the Law and see their obedience as a way to gain closeness to God and greater spirituality.

Many Pentacosta/charasmatics hold to thsi teaching as well.

James tells us...
3:1 Do not, many of you, become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive a stricter judgment.

You will be held accountable for what you are teaching God;s people.

I encourage you to this forum....1 John 3:6 and refute the Pastors and Theologians that breaksown this verse. Teach us how they condone and justify sin in this verse. Teach us how these men were really not Christians.

I say this sarcastically because this is something you cannot do.

Please repent of your sin of this false gospel that you are teaching.

Question to you, who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

 

[Consecrated Life]

I notice you make no mention of the Love of God in your talk to those you claim to love .
Only the burden of sin and the flesh .
Is it your understanding that was Jesus's approach to the perishing ?

My family were raised in religious backgrounds, so were well aware of the love of God.

You already told me your family was ignorant of the bible.
The Bible being the only religious text I know of that tells the Love of God.
Now you claim they are "well aware" of God's Love due to their "religious background"

My family has no knowledge of biblical things,

Obviously both aspects of this spiritual dichotomy of your family's concerning their biblical awareness , or lack thereof , that you attested to cannot be true.
It is beginning to sound to me like you are the one that is not aware .
Not aware that it is a sin to lie for instance .

 

[Hopeful 2]

John 9:31 “We know that God does not listen to sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He listens to him.
Davis did God's will. David was Chosen by God. David definitely was God-fearing. David was a man after Gods own heart.

If one is committing sin, they are not doing God's will.

You deny Psalm 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. According to you that verse is pointless.

It is pointless.
Is it a sin to you, if you hit and kill a child that runs into the street between parked cars ?
No, as you weren't tempted and enticed by a lust to kill that child.

I do not question the Bible and what it teaches,

That makes two of us.

The point you are missing is that you misinterpret the passages that you believe teach sinless perfection.

Obedience to God is not an option for anybody.

You are making the claim you are sinless, your words convey that you live a sinless life. If you really want people to believe you,your life will prove it. of course, over the internet.....well......you know.

Come on over for a week, and on Friday you can come with me to the food bank to help out.
I'll lodge you and feed you the entire time you are here.

A very tiny percentage of denominations teach Holiness and they have been debunked by their lives.

Haven't all the false "churches" debunked their claimed Christianity by their lives ?

Not so, you have been in many forums trying to push your agenda and derail anyone who has scripture that deals with sin.

I have been able to show the truth about misused scriptures that accommodate sin on a few sites.
When you figure that their POVs faster continued disobedience to God while my POV illustrates our ability to to exactly as God wants, which do you figure is from God almighty ?

No one in the Bible taught sinless perfection. Nevertheless, that is how you interpret it.

I will provide 5 examples of what you say isn't there...
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

Friend, it is you, your pastor and congregation that are self-decieved and preaching a different gospel. You and your like are taking verses out of context to justify a doctrine that sends a schism between believers, you put doubts in people minds.

Our POVs on what is a lover of God obviously differ.

This stems out of different movements, especially the Holiness movement and a false woman teacher.

Actually, it stems out of the heart of the Son of God who died to free us from sin.

Many Pentacosta/charasmatics hold to thsi teaching as well.

But do they live it ?

James tells us...
3:1 Do not, many of you, become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive a stricter judgment.

That is for sure.
In James' case, it looks like a case of "too many cooks spoil the broth".
Teaching conflicting things to the detriment of the church.

You will be held accountable for what you are teaching God;s people.

I am just glad that my teaching are classified as fresh water while the false teachings are classified as bitter.

I encourage you to this forum....1 John 3:6 and refute the Pastors and Theologians that breaksown this verse. Teach us how they condone and justify sin in this verse. Teach us how these men were really not Christians.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)
That looks pretty straight forward to me.
Especially when taken together with 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
And 1 John 5:18..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
The rest of your request makes no sense.

I say this sarcastically because this is something you cannot do.

You should have given me a sarcasm alert !

Please repent of your sin of this false gospel that you are teaching.

If I truly repent of sin, won't I be without sin ?
But you don't believe that is possible !
(Back to James)

Question to you, who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

Jesus is the Word made flesh, and the Son of God.

 

[electedbyHim]

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)
That looks pretty straight forward to me.
Especially when taken together with 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
And 1 John 5:18..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
The rest of your request makes no sense.

Not as straightforward as you interpret the verse.

I must not be conveying my thoughts very well.

I started a thread on 1 Joh 3:6, please go there and learn what the verse really means.

https://christianforums.net/threads/1-john-3-6.104426/#post-1861777

 

[Hopeful 2]

You already told me your family was ignorant of the bible.
The Bible being the only religious text I know of that tells the Love of God.
Now you claim they are "well aware" of God's Love due to their "religious background"

Yes, but the religion they were a part of wasn't bible based.
It was Catholic.
We got plenty of "Thou shalt nots", but no "Here's how"?

Obviously both aspects of this spiritual dichotomy of your family's concerning their biblical awareness , or lack thereof , that you attested to cannot be true.
It is beginning to sound to me like you are the one that is not aware .
Not aware that it is a sin to lie for instance .

I hope I have explained it sufficiently.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not as straightforward as you interpret the verse.

The supporting verses made it crystal clear.

I must not be conveying my thoughts very well.
I started a thread on 1 Joh 3:6, please go there and learn what the verse really means.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)
There is nothing hidden in there.