Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit

[electedbyHim]

Salvation is not by faith alone, but by grace through faith.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8


Not faith alone.
Not grace alone.

Grace and faith.

Not Biblical.

 

[RandyK]

Paul's teaching on the interpretation of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14 indeed emphasizes the edification of the church, which primarily consists of believers. When he states that tongues serve as a sign for unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22), Paul is not suggesting that tongues, especially when uninterpreted, are intended to directly instruct or reach unbelievers with understanding. Rather, the sign of tongues is a demonstration of God's power and presence, a supernatural indication that can provoke a response from those who do not believe, either in awe or in confusion. However, when tongues are interpreted, the primary goal is to edify the believers who are present, ensuring that the spiritual truth being communicated is clear and beneficial to the entire congregation. The interpretation allows the message, which originates in the Spirit, to be understood by all, fostering unity and spiritual growth within the church.

Interpreted or Uninterpreted Tongues are different from Understood Tongues on the Day of Pentecost. And if Believers' Tongues, whether Interpreted or not, are very different from Understood Tongues on the Day of Pentecost, why are we equating them or comparing them?

Unbelievers became believers on the Day of Pentecost when they heard Tongues *in their own language.* But weren't these Tongues also for unbelievers as a sign judging them? I should think so, and ultimately I think you've agreed?

In the account of Pentecost in Acts 2, the phenomenon of speaking in tongues was indeed a miraculous sign that served multiple purposes. While the listeners heard the disciples speaking in their own languages, this was not the same as the spiritual gift of interpretation of tongues mentioned later in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 12:10). Rather, it was a supernatural act of God where the spoken tongues were instantly understood by those from various nations.

This is what I mean? If Understood Tongues on the Day of Pentecost are different than either Interpreted or Uninterpreted Tongues for Believers primarily, why do you use one to prove the other? Why would you use Tongues on the Day of Pentecost as an argument that *all believers* should speak in Tongues?

The key point here is not whether these were interpreted tongues in the traditional sense, but that the event demonstrated God’s power and served as a divine confirmation of the new covenant reality—the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28-29). This manifestation was both a sign to the unbelievers present and a fulfillment of prophecy, signaling the dawn of the Church age and the universal call to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

The speaking in tongues at Pentecost is not an isolated incident but rather a pattern seen throughout the Book of Acts, where the baptism of the Holy Spirit is often accompanied by the initial evidence of speaking in tongues (Acts 10:44-46; Acts 19:6).

Not entirely. Yes, there were other events in which a group spoke in Tongues upon commitment to Christ. But this was still the initial period in which Pentecost was being declared as fulfilled in the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

I do not, however, see events outside of Pentecost in which Tongues were spoken in the language of the listeners or witnesses? So clearly, Pentecost was unique, as I think all early experiences of Tongues were, with respect to their speaking *as a group.* This is, however, speculative on my part.

This experience is not limited to foreign languages that need to be understood by others, but it serves as a personal sign of the infilling of the Spirit, a deeply spiritual and mostly private communication with God (1 Corinthians 14:2). The tongues spoken are not always meant to be understood by human ears, but they serve as a spiritual manifestation of God's presence within the believer, affirming their transformation and empowerment for service. This experience is seen as an essential component of the believer’s spiritual life, providing a direct, spirit-led connection with God that transcends natural understanding and empowers the believer for the work of the ministry.

Nobody is even questioning whether the Gift of the Spirit is essential for the believer's life. We are differing over the necessity of *Tongues* in the believer's life! Not the same thing.

 

[My Rock]

Paul used Tongues as an allusion to the OT experience of foreign countries invading Israel for judgment against their unbelief.

The use of tongues at Pentecost reveals a reversal of judgment—a movement from confusion and separation toward unity and revelation. Unlike the Old Testament instance, where foreign languages symbolized God’s displeasure, at Pentecost, they signified His pleasure in pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh, leading to conviction and salvation of unbelievers.

We are taken captive by Christ, and given Tongues, at times, to show that we've been changed, supernaturally, from unbelief to belief.

This concept of being "taken captive by Christ" can be understood as the transformative power of the Holy Spirit, which indeed marks a believer’s transition from darkness to light. The idea of tongues being exclusively a sign for believers contradicts the broader biblical narrative that depicts tongues as a public demonstration of God's power meant to draw both believers and unbelievers toward Him. The miraculous nature of tongues at Pentecost was not just an internal sign but a powerful, external testimony that drew many unbelievers to faith. The divine origin of these unlearned languages evidenced a supernatural encounter that could not be explained away, thus convicting both the heart of the believer and the skeptic.

Tongues, then, would not be a sign for unbelievers, but rather, for believers to know they've been changed by grace.

While tongues certainly affirm the believer’s experience of grace, the Bible emphasizes that their purpose extends beyond the individual believer. The New Testament, particularly in Acts, consistently portrays tongues as a sign that operates on multiple levels: it confirms the believer’s encounter with the Holy Spirit while simultaneously serving as a witness to unbelievers. God’s wisdom is demonstrated through the diversity of tongues, as He uses what may seem foolish to the world to reveal His power. The miraculous nature of tongues, understood by unbelievers at Pentecost, was a catalyst for conversion, demonstrating that God’s signs are not confined to edifying the believer alone but are intended to reveal His glory to all.

I don't advocate for "false humility." True humility begins with honesty. And I cannot honestly yield to your arguments unless enough truth is there to convict me that it is God's voice, and not merely your own interests.

True humility is not about self-abasement or blind submission to another's argument, but rather a sincere openness to the Spirit's leading. The Word of God invites us to "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1) and to seek truth with a pure heart. However, it’s crucial to also consider the collective witness of the Spirit within the body of Christ. When examining scriptural interpretations, we must be willing to align our understanding with the broader revelation of God’s Word and the consistent witness of the Spirit. This involves a careful, prayerful, and communal process of discerning truth.

Have you examined what your motivation is in this? Are you really considering whether you understand what Paul is saying here, or simply wishing what is said to confirm your predetermined beliefs?

This question about motivation touches on an essential aspect of biblical interpretation—our heart posture before God. It is vital to approach Scripture with a heart fully surrendered to the truth, even if it challenges our preconceived notions. The Bible warns against the dangers of self-deception (James 1:22) and the tendency to conform Scripture to our desires rather than allowing it to transform us. Paul’s teachings in 1 Corinthians 14 should be approached with the understanding that his primary concern is the edification of the church and the orderly exercise of spiritual gifts. If we approach the text with a desire to confirm our beliefs rather than seek God’s truth, we risk missing the full intent and purpose of Paul’s instruction.

Are you really considering whether you understand what Paul is saying here, or simply wishing what is said to confirm your predetermined beliefs?

This question brings us back to the principle of submission to God's Word. Scripture involves recognizing the unity of God’s purpose throughout the Bible, and how the Spirit reveals the truth in layers—both the immediate context and the larger redemptive narrative. Paul’s message in 1 Corinthians 14 is about the proper use of spiritual gifts for the edification of the church, a theme consistent with the New Testament's emphasis on building up the body of Christ. It’s essential to approach this passage with a readiness to be corrected by the Word, allowing the Spirit to reshape our understanding in light of the greater context of God’s work through the church. This openness to God’s leading ensures that our interpretations are not driven by our biases but by a genuine desire to align with God’s will.

 

[electedbyHim]

When we follow the commands of the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost, which is what the Word is. Never would that be considered a work. So, I ask If Jesus' and/or His Word commanded you to do something, you would say no that's a work, sorry Jesus.

Adding Baptism to regeneration is a work.

We do good works after we are saved.

We are saved by faith alone, this is not human faith as many believe.

Nothing mentioned about Baptism or tongues in the following verses. Paul must have forgot that part of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Philppians 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

 

[My Rock]

Not Biblical.

If Ephesians 2:8 is not in your Bible, what Bible are you reading? We can exhibit as much faith as we can muster, but without God extending His grace, our efforts alone would be in vain. The truth that 'by grace you have been saved through faith' underscores the essential reality that salvation is a divine gift, not something earned by our own works. It is through God's grace that we are enabled to believe and receive salvation. Faith is the response to this grace, a trust in God's provision and promises. In every step of our walk with God, it is His grace that empowers and sustains us, making faith a living, dynamic reality rather than a mere intellectual exercise. As we strive to live out our faith, we must continually rely on His grace, recognizing that it is the source of our strength and the foundation of our salvation.

 

[RandyK]

The use of tongues at Pentecost reveals a reversal of judgment—a movement from confusion and separation toward unity and revelation. Unlike the Old Testament instance, where foreign languages symbolized God’s displeasure, at Pentecost, they signified His pleasure in pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh, leading to conviction and salvation of unbelievers.

That's what I said from the start! We agree on this.

This concept of being "taken captive by Christ" can be understood as the transformative power of the Holy Spirit, which indeed marks a believer’s transition from darkness to light. The idea of tongues being exclusively a sign for believers contradicts the broader biblical narrative that depicts tongues as a public demonstration of God's power meant to draw both believers and unbelievers toward Him. The miraculous nature of tongues at Pentecost was not just an internal sign but a powerful, external testimony that drew many unbelievers to faith. The divine origin of these unlearned languages evidenced a supernatural encounter that could not be explained away, thus convicting both the heart of the believer and the skeptic.

The point Paul was making was that Tongues, unless interpreted, would not convert unbelievers. But yes, Tongues were a sign, nevertheless, for unbelievers who after hearing in their own language would reject the message.

True humility is not about self-abasement or blind submission to another's argument, but rather a sincere openness to the Spirit's leading. The Word of God invites us to "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1) and to seek truth with a pure heart. However, it’s crucial to also consider the collective witness of the Spirit within the body of Christ. When examining scriptural interpretations, we must be willing to align our understanding with the broader revelation of God’s Word and the consistent witness of the Spirit. This involves a careful, prayerful, and communal process of discerning truth.

Of course.

This question about motivation touches on an essential aspect of biblical interpretation—our heart posture before God. It is vital to approach Scripture with a heart fully surrendered to the truth, even if it challenges our preconceived notions. The Bible warns against the dangers of self-deception (James 1:22) and the tendency to conform Scripture to our desires rather than allowing it to transform us. Paul’s teachings in 1 Corinthians 14 should be approached with the understanding that his primary concern is the edification of the church and the orderly exercise of spiritual gifts. If we approach the text with a desire to confirm our beliefs rather than seek God’s truth, we risk missing the full intent and purpose of Paul’s instruction.

Agreed.

This question brings us back to the principle of submission to God's Word. Scripture involves recognizing the unity of God’s purpose throughout the Bible, and how the Spirit reveals the truth in layers—both the immediate context and the larger redemptive narrative. Paul’s message in 1 Corinthians 14 is about the proper use of spiritual gifts for the edification of the church, a theme consistent with the New Testament's emphasis on building up the body of Christ. It’s essential to approach this passage with a readiness to be corrected by the Word, allowing the Spirit to reshape our understanding in light of the greater context of God’s work through the church. This openness to God’s leading ensures that our interpretations are not driven by our biases but by a genuine desire to align with God’s will.

I agree. We should also recognize our limitations, that we are flawed, need to go through a corrective, maturing process, and have to fight internal battles between what we want to believe and what God wants us to believe. In other words, it's a process. Thanks for some sound teaching.

 

[hawkman]

Moderator note .
No more dicussions of the grace , faith and salvation and water baptism , we are getting off track .
Keep your posts in line with the OP please !

 

[My Rock]

So clearly, Pentecost was unique

The only unique aspects of the Pentecost experience compared to today were the rushing wind and the cloven tongues of fire. Everything else remains the same. To illustrate, imagine a congregation representing 25 different countries. If many individuals in this congregation are baptized in the Holy Ghost and begin speaking languages that are unfamiliar to them but known to some of the bystanders who speak naturally these languages, the core experience mirrors that of Pentecost. The essence of the Holy Spirit's work—empowering believers to speak in various languages as a sign of God's promise being fulfilled—remains consistent across different contexts and eras. This demonstrates that while the specific manifestations may vary, the fundamental experience of receiving the Holy Spirit and its transformative impact is a continuous and unchanging reality.

 

[My Rock]

As I said above, you are asserting this, but not in any way demonstrating it as integral to Paul's thought. It goes without saying that Paul is speaking of NT Tongues, and not OT foreign invasions. But he did mention it, and you need to explain that other than simply calling it "paradoxical."

Paul’s reference to Isaiah 28:11-12 in 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 is a deliberate invocation of an Old Testament instance of divine judgment. While it is clear that Paul is speaking of New Testament tongues, he uses the symbolism of Old Testament foreign tongues to underscore a deeper theological point. In the Old Testament, foreign tongues signaled God's displeasure and judgment against Israel's unbelief. Paul recontextualizes this symbol within the New Covenant, shifting its meaning from judgment to an invitation to grace.

The paradox is that the same sign, once associated with alienation and exile, now signifies the presence of God in the church and serves as an invitation for unbelievers to come to faith. This dual-layered symbolism is integral to Paul’s thought and is not just a rhetorical device but a profound statement about the continuity and transformation of God’s relationship with humanity. The mention of Old Testament foreign invasions is thus not incidental but essential to understanding the way God’s communication evolves, reflecting the dynamic nature of His dealings with humanity across the covenants.

But the point had to do with whether uninterpreted Tongues was a sign to unbelievers? At least, that's what I thought your argument initially was?

It’s important to recognize that the function of tongues in the New Testament is multifaceted. The initial sign of tongues at Pentecost served as a miraculous sign to unbelievers because it was a supernatural event where people from diverse backgrounds heard the message in their native languages. This act was both a sign and a witness, showing God’s power and drawing people to repentance. However, Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians 14 makes a distinction between the public use of tongues without interpretation within the church and its potential to confuse or even alienate unbelievers present. In this context, uninterpreted tongues are not presented as a sign to unbelievers but rather as something that requires interpretation for edification. The sign at Pentecost was unique in its function as it was a direct and clear demonstration of God's Spirit that transcended linguistic barriers.

If it is not, then, a sign to unbelievers except as a miracle of supernatural translation of foreign languages, then why would it be explained as a function for *all Christians?*

The function of tongues, as described in the New Testament, goes beyond the initial sign at Pentecost. While the miraculous event of speaking in known languages at Pentecost was a sign to unbelievers, Paul emphasizes in 1 Corinthians 12-14 that tongues also serve a different role within the church. The gift of tongues, when paired with interpretation, is meant for the edification of the body of Christ. Not all believers are given the gift of interpretation, just as not all are given the gift of prophecy, teaching, or healing. The distribution of spiritual gifts is varied and serves to build up the church collectively. The statement that tongues are explained as a function for all Christians should be understood in the context that the Spirit distributes gifts according to His will, and the evidence of tongues as a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit is distinct from the ongoing spiritual gift of tongues used within the church.

Certainly not all Christians interpret their "Gift of Tongues?"

This observation is correct, (but it can happen) and it aligns with Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians 12:30, where he rhetorically asks, “Do all interpret?” indicating that not every believer is given the same gift. The diversity of gifts within the body of Christ underscores the unique role each believer plays in the church. The gift of tongues, when it operates without interpretation, is intended for personal edification (1 Corinthians 14:4). However, when it is used in a congregational setting, interpretation is necessary for the benefit of all. This distinction is crucial in understanding that while the initial sign of tongues serves as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit, the ongoing gift of tongues and its interpretation are distinct roles within the church, contributing to its unity and growth.

Your argument is that "all" spoke in Tongues on the Day of Pentecost. But on that day, it was "Interpreted Tongues," and not "uninterpreted Tongues." How can we then use the Day of Pentecost and its particular use of Tongues as proof that *all* Christians should speak in Tongues?

Understood Tongues and Interpreted Tongues are two different things. Understood tongues occur when people hear the message in their native language without needing an interpreter, as seen on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). The disciples spoke in languages they didn't know, but the diverse crowd understood them directly, leading to immediate conviction and faith. Interpreted tongues, however, require someone with the spiritual gift of interpretation to explain the message to others. This is necessary when the tongues spoken are not naturally understood by the hearers, as Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 12-14. While both are manifestations of the Holy Spirit, understood tongues are immediately comprehensible, whereas interpreted tongues require divine interpretation to edify the church.

The argument that all Christians should speak in tongues is rooted in the consistent New Testament pattern where speaking in tongues accompanies the reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-46, Acts 19:6). The Day of Pentecost serves as the initial and powerful demonstration of this, where the Spirit enabled those present to speak in tongues, affirming their reception of the Holy Spirit. Even if the specific context of Pentecost involved interpreted tongues due to the crowd's diversity, the underlying truth remains that the Spirit's outpouring was accompanied by the sign of tongues, which is seen throughout the New Testament as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. This pattern supports the belief that speaking in tongues is an experience available to all believers, serving as a sign of the Spirit's indwelling.

 

[My Rock]

But weren't these Tongues also for unbelievers as a sign judging them?

Not at Pentecost because they were Understood Tongues. The only time that Tongues are seen as a judgment is when tongues spoken without interpretation can confuse or alienate unbelievers.

Interpreted or Uninterpreted Tongues are different from Understood Tongues on the Day of Pentecost. And if Believers' Tongues, whether Interpreted or not, are very different from Understood Tongues on the Day of Pentecost,

Agree.

Why would you use Tongues on the Day of Pentecost as an argument that *all believers* should speak in Tongues?

The event of Pentecost is often cited to emphasize the importance of speaking in tongues as a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit, based on Acts 2:4 where the apostles were filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues. While this miraculous occurrence was specific to the early church's formative days, it sets a precedent for the subsequent experiences of all believers.

It is important to recognize that the Pentecostal experience serves as an example for every believer. In the New Testament, speaking in tongues is portrayed as a significant manifestation of the Holy Spirit's presence and empowerment, as the initial evidence, but not the sole or exclusive evidence of the Spirit's work in an individual’s life. The broader New Testament teaching supports the idea that the Holy Spirit’s baptism equips believers with various spiritual gifts, including tongues, but also emphasizes the fruit of the Spirit and the transformative power of a Spirit-filled life.

If anyone chooses not to speak in tongues or not to seek the gift, it is entirely up to them. Yet, if God has made this gift available, I personally would not want to miss out on it. Embracing the fullness of what the Holy Spirit offers can enrich our spiritual journey and deepen our relationship with God.

 

[My Rock]

I agree. We should also recognize our limitations, that we are flawed, need to go through a corrective, maturing process, and have to fight internal battles between what we want to believe and what God wants us to believe. In other words, it's a process. Thanks for some sound teaching.

Try my best I am Human and flawed, but with plenty of real life Tongue Speaking experiences, youth conventions, revivals, and plenty of intercessory praying and even sing in Tongues on occasion.

 

[RandyK]

Not at Pentecost because they were Understood Tongues. The only time that Tongues are seen as a judgment is when tongues spoken without interpretation can confuse or alienate unbelievers.

Seriously? You don't think those who said the apostles were drunk were being judged for rejecting their witness?

Agree.

The event of Pentecost is often cited to emphasize the importance of speaking in tongues as a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit, based on Acts 2:4 where the apostles were filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues. While this miraculous occurrence was specific to the early church's formative days, it sets a precedent for the subsequent experiences of all believers.

But you're here claiming what you have yet to prove! If Pentecost and subsequent events of group Tongues is different and largely relegated to the early manifestation of the fulfillment of the Gift of the Spirit, why would it be used as a precedent for later experiences of Christians in general? It is no longer a group experience, since it is no longer evidenced as such in history. Nor are we told to expect that by Paul. Remember that he asked, rhetorically, "Do all speak in tongues," to which we would answewr, "No!"

It is important to recognize that the Pentecostal experience serves as an example for every believer. In the New Testament, speaking in tongues is portrayed as a significant manifestation of the Holy Spirit's presence and empowerment, as the initial evidence, but not the sole or exclusive evidence of the Spirit's work in an individual’s life.

It is not even taught in the Scriptures to be the "initial evidence" of the Holy Spirit's "presence and empowerment." On the contrary, the gift of Tongues is said to be an individual gifting at the discretion of the Holy Spirit. The presence and empowerment of the Spirit can just as easily be evidence in other gifts of the Spirit, as an "initial evidence" of the gift of the Spirit. Though Tongues was the initial evidence of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost we have already established that it uiquely showed the initial coming of the Spirit, a unique "group experience," and a Tongue that uniquely was given and understood in the language of the hearers.

The broader New Testament teaching supports the idea that the Holy Spirit’s baptism equips believers with various spiritual gifts, including tongues, but also emphasizes the fruit of the Spirit and the transformative power of a Spirit-filled life.

Of course, spiritual phenomena is certainly not limited to Tongues, which is actually given as a "lesser gifting." But nothing in the Scriiptures explicitly teaches that Tongues is to be the "initial sign" of the Gift in the lives of individuals who receive the Holy Spirit. If so, where? Anecdotal evidence is not "exlicit teaching!"

If anyone chooses not to speak in tongues or not to seek the gift, it is entirely up to them. Yet, if God has made this gift available, I personally would not want to miss out on it. Embracing the fullness of what the Holy Spirit offers can enrich our spiritual journey and deepen our relationship with God.

I've always been open to whatever supernatural gift the Lord wants to give me or others. I fully believe in Tongues--not as a necessary "initial evidence" of receiving the Holy Spirit, but as one way the Holy Spirit may gift an individual. The value is on personal edification, unless it extends its spiritual vitality to an interpretation, which edifies all.

 

[My Rock]

Seriously? You don't think those who said the apostles were drunk were being judged for rejecting their witness?

A mocking response from anyone highlights a rejection of the sign and a refusal to recognize God's work. It illustrates that the effectiveness of tongues as a sign depends on the openness of the heart. For those open to God, it can lead to faith and repentance, but for those who mock, it becomes a moment of judgment as they reject the very sign meant to draw them closer to the truth. This contrast underscores that the reception of spiritual signs, such as tongues, is ultimately determined by the condition of the heart of the believer and unbeliever.

But you're here claiming what you have yet to prove! If Pentecost and subsequent events of group Tongues is different and largely relegated to the early manifestation of the fulfillment of the Gift of the Spirit, why would it be used as a precedent for later experiences of Christians in general?

Here is a some good questions.
If the Only thing required for Salvation is belief in Christ and Repentance than why did Jesus tell His disciples not to leave Jerusalem on missionary journeys until after the Promise of the Father? What was even the need to pray in one accord for the Spirit and speak in tongues if they were already saved?

The use of Pentecost as a precedent for later experiences is supported by the consistency of this manifestation across diverse groups of believers—Jews, Gentiles, and those who had previously only known the baptism of John—indicating that the Holy Spirit’s work is for all who come to faith in Christ. Additionally, Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost, where he declared, “The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call” (Acts 2:39), underscores that this outpouring was not a one-time event but a promise for all believers across generations.

Nor are we told to expect that by Paul. Remember that he asked, rhetorically, "Do all speak in tongues," to which we would answewr, "No!"

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 addresses the diversity of spiritual gifts within the body of Christ, emphasizing that not every believer will have the same role or gift. The church is likened to a body, with each member having a distinct function, and all are necessary for the health and growth of the church. This diversity ensures that the church operates effectively, with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers, those with gifts of healing, and others each contributing uniquely to the mission of the church.

It is important to distinguish between the different types of speaking in tongues mentioned in the New Testament. The Bible teaches that speaking in tongues serves different purposes and contexts. There is speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit, which is a private and personal experience for every believer baptized in the Holy Ghost. This experience is a sign of the New Birth and is distinct from the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 12 refers to the specific gift of tongues used in a public worship setting. This gift, meant for the edification of the church, typically occurs during quiet spiritual moments of reflection and requires interpretation. Not all believers will possess this particular gift (Do all speak in Tongues), just as not all are apostles, prophets, or teachers. This public exercise of the gift of tongues, accompanied by interpretation, is different from the personal prayer language experienced by individuals when they receive the Holy Spirit.

While every believer is encouraged to seek and receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as a personal experience, the specific gift of tongues used in church settings for communal edification and requiring interpretation is given according to God’s sovereign will and purpose. This distinction clarifies the different roles of speaking in tongues within the body of Christ, both for individual spiritual growth and for the edification of the church.

 

[electedbyHim]

A mocking response from anyone highlights a rejection of the sign and a refusal to recognize God's work. It illustrates that the effectiveness of tongues as a sign depends on the openness of the heart. For those open to God, it can lead to faith and repentance, but for those who mock, it becomes a moment of judgment as they reject the very sign meant to draw them closer to the truth. This contrast underscores that the reception of spiritual signs, such as tongues, is ultimately determined by the condition of the heart of the believer and unbeliever.

Here is a some good questions.
If the Only thing required for Salvation is belief in Christ and Repentance than why did Jesus tell His disciples not to leave Jerusalem on missionary journeys until after the Promise of the Father? What was even the need to pray in one accord for the Spirit and speak in tongues if they were already saved?

The use of Pentecost as a precedent for later experiences is supported by the consistency of this manifestation across diverse groups of believers—Jews, Gentiles, and those who had previously only known the baptism of John—indicating that the Holy Spirit’s work is for all who come to faith in Christ. Additionally, Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost, where he declared, “The promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call” (Acts 2:39), underscores that this outpouring was not a one-time event but a promise for all believers across generations.

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 addresses the diversity of spiritual gifts within the body of Christ, emphasizing that not every believer will have the same role or gift. The church is likened to a body, with each member having a distinct function, and all are necessary for the health and growth of the church. This diversity ensures that the church operates effectively, with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers, those with gifts of healing, and others each contributing uniquely to the mission of the church.

It is important to distinguish between the different types of speaking in tongues mentioned in the New Testament. The Bible teaches that speaking in tongues serves different purposes and contexts. There is speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit, which is a private and personal experience for every believer baptized in the Holy Ghost. This experience is a sign of the New Birth and is distinct from the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 12 refers to the specific gift of tongues used in a public worship setting. This gift, meant for the edification of the church, typically occurs during quiet spiritual moments of reflection and requires interpretation. Not all believers will possess this particular gift (Do all speak in Tongues), just as not all are apostles, prophets, or teachers. This public exercise of the gift of tongues, accompanied by interpretation, is different from the personal prayer language experienced by individuals when they receive the Holy Spirit.

While every believer is encouraged to seek and receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as a personal experience, the specific gift of tongues used in church settings for communal edification and requiring interpretation is given according to God’s sovereign will and purpose. This distinction clarifies the different roles of speaking in tongues within the body of Christ, both for individual spiritual growth and for the edification of the church.

Provide solid evidence tongues are for today.

A video will do from the church you attend., or pastor over.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[My Rock]

Provide solid evidence tongues are for today.

A video will do from the church you attend., or pastor over.

Grace and peace to you.

If you need to skip to 5:39

If you need to skip to 8:15

Watch this especially listening from 3:39

 

[eddif]

Matthew 9:6 kjv
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

The use of Spiritual Gifts is to provide a person encouragement to seek forgiveness of sins.
We can not see forgiveness of sins. We can acknowledge the more close to our physical / mental experiences.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[RandyK]

Well of course! But the point I wished to make was that Tongues, which in this case was *understood,* was intended by God to be a judgment against unbelievers, just as foreigners with foreign tongues judged Israel in ancient times when they fell into unbelief. This is what I think Paul meant when he said....

1 Cor 14.21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

That is, even though unbelievers may or may not understand Tongues, they will be judged for their hard-heartedness in the presence of supernatural signs. The fact the sign is supernatural and from God will judge them. And when the Tongues are interpreted they will judge them or, in some cases, save them.


The Spirit had always been with Israel when they were under contract with the Law. But God wanted His Spirit to be with them continuously and eternally, marking them as children, and not just "servants."

So after Christ provided the atonement for Eternal Life, the Spirit came to confirm the New Covenant making believers permanent children and members of God's household. But I think it may be important to say that the Spirit came not just to confirm the New Covenant, but also to confirm that reality as a witness to others.

In other words, it was power designed to anoint God's People for ministry, and not just for ownership. This provided an open invitation for others, to whom this ministry would be pointed. It was a fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise, that not just Israel but all nations would have access to God's Salvation and would, in fact, result in entire nations committing to the laws of God.

What I suggested was that Pentecost itself, along with its initial manifestations, was a one-off. Pentecost does not have to begin over and over again throughout history. Once the Spirit had come, it was here forever.

The coming of the Spirit is what was fulfilled--not the display of Group Tongues resulting in other languages being spoken to diverse language groups. That ceased in history whereas the gift of the Spirit has not ceased from taking place among those willing to obey Christ.

I'm not here teaching a doctrine of Cessationism, but rather, speaking of historical realities. Group Tongues appear to have ceased after the initial coming of Pentecost. It no longer needed to confirm that it had come long after that historical event had taken place.

On the other hand, the Gifts of the Spirit continue to operate throughout history, including Tongues. It's just that, I think, the kind of Tongues we saw on the Day of Pentecost has changed somewhat. Instead of Group Tongues with people speaking in their own language, we get more of a "Private Tongues" thing, or Tongues + Interpretation in a Service.

Exactly. Tongues is, however, not said to be given to all, but only to those chosen to receive it by the Holy Spirit. Here is, I believe, the relevant rhetorical question: "Do all speak in tongues?" The answer is: of course not!

And people are not said to be without this gift because they reject it, but rather because God chooses who gets what gifts. Some Pentecostal Theology disagrees with this, however.

We are told Christians with the gift of Tongues may exercise that gift privately. But we are not told that because this takes place in a private setting it has different rules applying to it, allowing *all Christians to have that gift!*

If the theology itself is not being explicitly stated., I would be cautious.

I don't think this. Where is "every believer encouraged to seek and receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?" And how is that even possible if Paul said some would not receive every gift, including Tongues?

It is true we are all encouraged to accept Christ and receive the Spirit. And we are told not to forbid gifts like Tongues and Prophecy. However, this is different from saying *every individual should expect to have Tongues and other gifts.* I don't believe the theology explicitly says this.

If you don't agree, that's okay. I share with you a love for the Scriptures and for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Without the supernatural manifestation of God's Spirit our witness will be weak and ineffective. I pray for this every day in my heart.

I'm replying here with an apology that my post above was on the "rude" side, and sharper than it needed to be. So I amended the post somewhat in order to give my arguments without getting too personal. Sorry! Randy

 

[My Rock]

not the display of Group Tongues resulting in other languages being spoken to diverse language groups.

Group Tongues appear to have ceased after the initial coming of Pentecost. It no longer needed to confirm that it had come long after that historical event had taken place.

In a hypothetical yet conceivable situation, imagine an international megachurch with a congregation representing over 50 countries. During an altar call, hundreds of individuals are praying aloud in tongues, each speaking in their personal prayer language rather than delivering a message intended for public interpretation. Remarkably, bystanders in the congregation, who come from diverse linguistic backgrounds, hear these prayers in their own native languages. Group Tongues. During the endtime revival this could become a natural reality.

"Do all speak in tongues?"

The specific gift of tongues, as described in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, operates differently from the personal experience of speaking in tongues that occurs when believers receive the Holy Spirit. While speaking in tongues is a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4, 10:46, 19:6), the public exercise of tongues as a spiritual gift used in quiet worship settings is distinct and not given to every believer ("Do all speak in Tongues?") (1 Corinthians 14:5, 13). This public manifestation requires interpretation otherwise "let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." (1 Corinthians 14:28) and serves the purpose of edifying the church collectively.

And people are not said to be without this gift because they reject it, but rather because God chooses who gets what gifts. You ignore that, as well. This is not to condemn your responses, but only to call your attention to the Scriptures, as opposed to your Pentecostal Theology.

From a scriptural standpoint, it is true that the distribution of spiritual gifts is according to God's will. 1 Corinthians 12:11 states, "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." This underscores the sovereignty of God in bestowing gifts upon believers according to His purpose and plan.

However, it's also important to recognize that the Pentecostal emphasis on seeking and desiring spiritual gifts, including tongues, is rooted in Paul's exhortation in 1 Corinthians 14:1, where he encourages believers to "follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy." The pursuit of spiritual gifts is presented as a positive and encouraged practice, intended to build up the body of Christ and to draw believers closer to God.

It's not merely a matter of rejecting or accepting a gift; it's also about aligning one's heart with God's will, being open to His workings, and earnestly desiring to be used by Him in whatever capacity He chooses. The Biblical perspective emphasizes that while God is the giver of gifts, the believer's openness and desire to be filled with the Spirit play a role in experiencing the fullness of what God has to offer.

In light of this, the Pentecostal theology doesn't contradict Scripture but rather emphasizes a dynamic relationship with the Holy Spirit, where believers are encouraged to seek, ask, and be receptive to the gifts God is willing to bestow. It's a balance between recognizing God's sovereign choice and the believer's response to His call.

But we are not told that because this takes place in a private setting it has different rules applying to it, allowing *all Christians to have that gift!*

Let me clarify this: While interpretation of tongues is indeed a higher gift within the framework of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14:5), it is important to recognize that the gift of tongues itself serves as the foundation for interpretation. If believers ceased seeking the gift of tongues, there would be no content to interpret, which would limit the function of the gift of interpretation. Both gifts are interdependent, with tongues providing the substance that interpretation elucidates for the edification of the church. Therefore, both gifts play crucial roles in the operation of the Spirit within the body of Christ.

I don't believe this is true. Where is "every believer encouraged to seek and receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?"

If a true seeker of God wants everything God has available to them, would they not be encouraged through the Word to seek these gifts?

 

[My Rock]

I'm replying here with an apology that my post above was on the "rude" side, and sharper than it needed to be. So I amended the post somewhat in order to give my arguments without getting too personal. Sorry! Randy

Your response might have seemed a bit sharp, but I don't believe it was meant to be rude. Often, our strong passion for absolute truth can lead to responses that come across as blunt. I've been taking steps to pause and reflect on God's love and His guidance before replying. This helps me approach discussions with a more thoughtful and gracious perspective.

 

[My Rock]

Well of course! But the point I wished to make was that Tongues, which in this case was *understood,* was intended by God to be a judgment against unbelievers, just as foreigners with foreign tongues judged Israel in ancient times when they fell into unbelief. This is what I think Paul meant when he said....

1 Cor 14.21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

That is, even though unbelievers may or may not understand Tongues, they will be judged for their hard-heartedness in the presence of supernatural signs. The fact the sign is supernatural and from God will judge them. And when the Tongues are interpreted they will judge them or, in some cases, save them.

Maybe I wasn't very good at bringing together what I was trying to say correctly, but I Am in perfect agreement.

The Spirit had always been with Israel when they were under contract with the Law. But God wanted His Spirit to be with them continuously and eternally, marking them as children, and not just "servants."

So after Christ provided the atonement for Eternal Life, the Spirit came to confirm the New Covenant making believers permanent children and members of God's household. But I think it may be important to say that the Spirit came not just to confirm the New Covenant, but also to confirm that reality as a witness to others.

In other words, it was power designed to anoint God's People for ministry, and not just for ownership. This provided an open invitation for others, to whom this ministry would be pointed. It was a fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise, that not just Israel but all nations would have access to God's Salvation and would, in fact, result in entire nations committing to the laws of God.

Great stuff. Sure would have a lot of fun fellowshipping with you. Very great and respectful conversation. Compared to other forums.