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'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

Do you recognize two different kinds of gift of tongues?
One where foreign languages are being delivered and another where the Spirit edifies the speaker with words meant to
help our infirmities as we don't know what to pray for?
No, because both of those purposes were accomplished by the same gift of tongues. But those two issues don't justify the idea that the nature of tongues was different between Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 14. The manifestation did not change in that time period. But when talking about modern day tongues, it is absolutely different in manifestation, because it's just gibberish like a toddler pretending to talk. I'm not saying that Pentecostals are intending that, but I'm saying that's reality, that it's the nature of modern tongues.

And if what I'm saying is true, that modern tongues is a natural phenomenon, then every time someone babbles it and then claims "thus saith the Lord...," that person is taking the name of the Lord in vain. The tongue-talker by speaking it in public is saying that very thing by virtue of their doing it in public. Every person in the congregation who hears it is assuming that God is speaking - this is the nature of doing it in public. And then when someone gives an interpretation, They also are virtually saying "thus saith the Lord...," and that person also is taking the name of the Lord in vain, because the Lord did not speak in that way. It doesn't matter that those people are deceived, and don't intend on taking the name of the Lord in vain. The actions, the behavior, the doctrine is wrong, and the Lord isn't in it.

So, concerning interpretation, just because someone can remember some verse of scripture, it doesn't mean that an authentic miraculous language was spoken and there was an authentic interpretation, which would be a translation of the message. In the case of modern tongues, it's merely gibberish, and then someone pretends an interpretation by quoting scripture or declaring "thus saith the Lord..." and speaks out of their imagination. There is a vast difference between what is described in scripture and what is being done today in P/C circles (Pentecostal/Charismatic).

What I hear you saying is that since there were 2 purposes of tongues described that it justifies the idea that there are 2 different manifestations. No, I deny that idea, I don't believe it. And neither is the idea justified that modern babble is "tongues of angels." Although Paul used that phrase once, doesn't mean that He was saying that anyone spoke an angelic language. Let's examine it carefully: was it an exaggerative expression? Are we to take it that he was teaching that some actually spoke angelic languages, or should we take it as a hyperbole where no one literally did that?

There are many hyperboles in scripture, but let's look at the immediate context of 1 Cor. 13. One of the hyperboles Paul mentioned was giving oneself over to be burned. Although it could have happened, and did happen to some, it's still a hyperbole, because Paul did not expect it to happen to himself nor to any of the Corinthians, and certainly not to the entire church nor to all those to whom the Spirit was given. Such expectation is the nature of the language of 1 Cor. 13, which is a conversation to a church. So, even if we claim that tongues of angels was possible or even likely for someone to speak, it certainly was not an expectation for all to speak it by any means. Yet, modern P/Cs claim that the gibberish they all speak are "tongues of angels." Can you see that there is something horribly wrong with the picture? There is a vast difference between what P/Cs claim and what scripture actually says.

But I say that modern tongues is not tongues of angels or men, it is a natural human ability, not a miracle. It's a language phenomenon that people can speak gibberish fluently. And it's the same kind of gibberish that's been done for thousands of years among various religions who claim they are "speaking oracles of the gods." And that linguists can tell that it's nothing but gibberish by the fact that their ear is tuned to real languages, and they are able to tell that there is not enough vocabulary or structure in modern tongues to render it a language or have any intelligible meaning in it. And it can't be an angelic language, since that would have to have structure also, and a vocabulary likely greater than humans.

Consider this: Roman Catholics claim the dogma of transubstantiation in the Eucharist, which means that the bread and wine become "the real body and blood of Christ." And the Protestant doesn't believe that any more than they believe in fairies. In the same way, when a P/C speaks gibberish and claims that the Holy Spirit is speaking through them, I don't believe that either. Further, I am now convinced that the practice of it in public is the sin of taking the Lord's name in vain, even though that's not intended. At best, it's people who are deceived into thinking it's a manifestation of the Holy Spirit when in reality it isn't. I think my 5 issues listed above are the heart of the matter, in addition to my description of it in this post.
TD:)
 
So, did you have some bad experiences at them? Was biblical Pentecostal theology taught at those churches?
What I am talking about in here is not "bad experiences," except for the fact that I was deceived into thinking that modern "tongues" was a gift of the Spirit, just as (IMO) all P/Cs are (Pentecostals/Charismatics). If you read my post #281 (https://christianforums.net/Fellows...g-in-tongues-true-vs-false.79801/post-1584681), you'll see why, along with my 5 issues already listed earlier. My experience with it is personal, observations, research, and study of the scripture. It was important to me to discover the truth of the matter, since I heard God tell me it wasn't of Him. Even after that happened, it took me almost 40 years of growth, familiarity with scripture, and research to get to this point of clarity on this issue. Beliefs are a funny thing, in that people are gullible at first because of ignorance, and then they hang onto that belief (whether true or false) to their dying day because of fear. What does it take to free people from belief in urban legends? It might take a shock of reality check in addition to education in truth. I think it also takes God changing the attitude of the heart.
TD:)
 
Ernest,

The addition of Mark 16:9-20 to the biblical text is related to the MSS compiled by Erasmus at that time.


Ernest,

News is underwhelming to support the Textus Receptus and the long ending of Mark 16. In fact, there are several 'long' endings of Mark 16.

As for Burgon's research, it has holes so large I could drive a Mack track through them.

The Erasmus Greek text that became the Textus Receptus and had so much influence on the text used for the translation of the KJV New Testament, but it is based on a ‘debased form of the Greek Testament’ (Metzger’s words).

Better Greek manuscripts are available in the twenty-first century and most of the new translations are based on these texts. The Greek text gathered by Erasmus that became the Textus Receptus is not the most reliable Greek text available for NT translation. The manuscripts found since the time of Erasmus and the eclectic Greek text of Nestle-Aland 26, which is used in the United Bible Societies Greek NT (edition 27 is now available), provide a more reliable Greek text from which to translate. The latter Greek text is used in such English Bible translations as the RSV, NRSV, ESV, NET, NIV, NASB and NLT.

However, there is no point in trying to convince, a dogmatic Textus Receptus supporter, of these details.

Taken from my article, The Greek Text, the KJV, and English translations

Erasmus consulted only one MSS for the Book of Revelation and the last leaf was lacking, so the last six verses were omitted in that Greek MSS. So what did he do? He translated the Latin Vulgate into Greek and published that as the last 6 verses of the Book of Revelation. Therefore, in the Greek of the last 6 verses of the Book of Revelation, it contains some words and phrases that have been found in no other Greek MSS (see The King James Version disagreement: Is the Greek text behind the KJV New Testament superior to that used by modern Bible translations?)

Oz

The last 12 verses are found in over 99% of Greek texts....you would have us all ignore this fact to focus on two spurious manuscripts? Those 12 verses are found in the Alexandrinus one of the big three unical manuscripts yet you write off the Alexandrinus? It would be just as 'genuine' as the other two manuscripts.

The Vatanicus and Sinaticus do not agree with other manuscripts and as Burgon proved they do not even agree with each other. As Burgon said, it was easier to find two consecutive verse that did not match between the Vat. and Sin. than it was to find two consecutive verses that did match. So how can these two manuscripts that greatly contradict each other be combined to attack the last 12 verses of Mk 16 while the Alex. is ignored?

I did not see you drive a truck through any hole. I have studied the issue myself and never saw anything to prove the latter verses of Mark 16 are not genuine. As I have seen it the "controversy" exist over Mark 16:16 and it requiring water baptism to be saved. And is attacked with flimsy "evidence". For example, one "scholar" attacked the last 12 verses by counting the words found in those 12 verses. He found some 17 words found in those last 12 verses that are not found anywhere else in the book of Mark therefore declared the last 12 verses "non-Marcan'. Yet another scholar counted the words in the preceding verses (Mark 15:44-47 thru Mark 16:8) and found 17 words used in those verses not found anywhere else in Mark. Another scholar counted words in the last 12 verses of the last chapter of Luke and found 9 words not found anywhere else in Luke, 4 words not found anywhere else in the NT. In other words, there is NO VALID internal evidence against the last 12 verses of Mark and the external evidence as I have said is overwhelmingly against you.
 
I wouldn't know (since I didn't understand or recognize it). What I DO know is that there was an INTERPRETATION in English that I could understand.



Unless, of course it is, and your PenteHOSTILE paradigm just doesn't accept it.



In YOUR OPINION. How do YOU know it's not a "known language" just because YOU don't recognize it. There are probably THOUSANDS of languages you know nothing about.

The Corinthians didn't know any of the Tongues being spoken, but Paul doesn't say they're Fake - he only criticized their USE in the meeting. (probably because they weren't messages to the congregation, but only "prayer tongues"). When God BURDENS a person to speak in tongues, He already knows who He's going to burden with the interpretation.



Sure you could, but you'd be LYING, and YOU'D KNOW IT!!!

How about this: It's an FGBMFI dinner meeting in Marion, OH in 1978. There's a message in a tongue NOT understood by anybody in the room. Immediately the fellow on my Left stands and begins to give the interpretation.

While he's doing that I'm Burdened to interpret, and when the fellow on my left suddenly stops in mid thought, I begin to speak what the Holy Spirit supplies to my mind, and Speak until the flow of words stops.

Whereupon the fellow on my Right stands and picks up the message were I left off, and finishes it out. SO three individuals in sequence speaking the interpretation of the message in tongues, and dovetailing seamlessly to bring forth the entire interpretation. I know that I didn't "Make up" anything, but simply spoke what I was given.

It's the same when I speak in tongues (as I've been doing privately for the last 47 years). When I speak, I speak words supplied to my mind by the Holy Spirit, and don't "Make up" anything.
You said you was a hearer but could not understand yet Paul's point in 1 Cor 14 the tongue speaker is to be quiet if what he is speaking cannot be understood or no one is translating what is being said.

If the "tongue speaking" you heard was like in the youtube video I presented then what you heard has NO BIBLE BASIS AT ALL. The tongue speaking in the Bible was known earthly languages and not some non earthly language that makes no sense. Has it ever crossed your mind those that are supposedly "translating" this "ecstatic utterances" are the ones lying to you? They can make up any translation they choose to since such a language does not even exist nor even found in the Bible..ever.

Why is it that not one single time in my personal contact with these miracle works NOT ONE ever performed a miracle they claimed they possessed? NOT ONE TIME. (Please do not tell me the ones I personally encountered were 'fakes' while you are around 'real' miracle workers. One of my personal encounters went on to become a Pentecostal preacher dedicating his life to it but could never produce one miracle of any kind that he claimed to possess.)
 
I don't agree, as Jesus, while in the flesh, didn't know the "times of the end".
There was somethings He would only be granted from His Father later on.

The gift of tongues is still being given by God, as are prophesy and other gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Don't you consider every time you are led to a new awareness as a gift of God?
Things are being revealed to me all the time, and I consider it prophesy.
I wholly disagree that Jesus was at anytime imperfect or not complete only to later be perfected.
 
Makes no sense.

Tongues is one of the signs that follow those who believe.
You disagree that the Apostles in the context did not believe Christ was seen alive although the verses says they did not believe? Why would Jesus need to "upbraid them with their unbelief"?

The plural "they" of v17 refers back to the nearest plural antecendent "the eleven" of v14 who again were upbraided for their unbelief.
 
You said you was a hearer but could not understand yet Paul's point in 1 Cor 14 the tongue speaker is to be quiet if what he is speaking cannot be understood or no one is translating what is being said.

True, but not for the reason a PenteHostile thinks. One who has been "Baptised in the HOly SPirit (to use AG Vernacular) Can speak in a tongue anytime they feel like it, for as LONG as they feel like it as long as the flow of words from the Holy SPirit continues.

HOwever THAT DOESN'T MEAN that they can "deliver a message in a tongue to the congregation JUST BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE IT - any more that YOU can speak prophesy just because you feel like it. BOth things are supernatural giftings BUrdened by the Holy SPirit in HIS timing, and for HIS purposes.

The "Interpreter" doesn't understand the TONGUE either. The Interpretation is Gifted to him/her, just as the TONGUE was gifted to the tongues speaker. IF God burdens a person to speak in a tongue in a congregational meeting, he will ALSO burden either the tongues speaker themselves, OR another person to interpret. As I said before, I've been in this for almost 60 years, and after many hundreds of Messages in tongues, I can still count on the fingers of both hands how many times there's been a message in tongues, but NO interpretation immediately following.

If the "tongue speaking" you heard was like in the youtube video I presented then what you heard has NO BIBLE BASIS AT ALL. The tongue speaking in the Bible was known earthly languages and not some non earthly language that makes no sense. Has it ever crossed your mind those that are supposedly "translating" this "ecstatic utterances" are the ones lying to you? They can make up any translation they choose to since such a language does not even exist nor even found in the Bible..ever.

Typical PenteHostile response. Since I'm one who's often interpreted the tongues spoken by another, I know that I MADE UP NOTHING and only spoke the words given me by the Holy Spirit when I was burdened to, without adding to, or diminishing from what I was given.

Can an interpretation (or a tongue) be faked?? sure - in a new York Minute!! There was a church system, near us in Ohio (The Way International) that for several hundred dollars would TEACH YOU to Prophesy, Interpret, and Speak in tongues on cue. Phony as a three dollar bill, of course, but THEY BELIEVED IT 100%!!

Why is it that not one single time in my personal contact with these miracle works NOT ONE ever performed a miracle they claimed they possessed?

If they "CLAIMED TO POSSESS" a miracle, they were already completely out of order. The HOLY SPIRIT at HIS pleasure, empowers people in a temporary fashion to speak miracles. NOBODY OWNS ANY GIFT AT ALL. and any Christian can be burdened by God AT HIS PLEASURE, at ANY TIME to do provide ANY ministry in his delegated power.

Everything in 1 Cor 12 is still fully present, and always has been.
 
If they "CLAIMED TO POSSESS" a miracle, they were already completely out of order. The HOLY SPIRIT at HIS pleasure, empowers people in a temporary fashion to speak miracles. NOBODY OWNS ANY GIFT AT ALL. and any Christian can be burdened by God AT HIS PLEASURE, at ANY TIME to do provide ANY ministry in his delegated power.

Everything in 1 Cor 12 is still fully present, and always has been.
I've heard of this theory, but it doesn't fit the context of the NT. If Paul declared that one who has a tongue can keep silent, saying "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets," then those people could perform miracles at will, which well-fits the context of Paul's instruction to perform the service in order. If the problem of the Corinthians was their performing miracles out of order for the wrong reason, then obviously they could perform it at will.

Further, if you claim that modern tongues is a gift of the Spirit, and that people practice it at will, then your idea that "NOBODY OWNS ANY GIFT AT ALL" is self-contradictory, since AG doctrine says that everyone receiving the Spirit speaks in tongues, and that they can practice it at will. So then, are you saying that most of the time you can't speak in tongues at will, even though almost all other AGs say they can?
TD:)
 
You said you was a hearer but could not understand yet Paul's point in 1 Cor 14 the tongue speaker is to be quiet if what he is speaking cannot be understood or no one is translating what is being said.

Ernest,

I do wish you'd read the Bible carefully. Nowhere in 1 Cor 12-14 is there a mention of 'the gift of translation'. Not a word. Please understand the difference between translation and interpretation.

Oz
 
I've heard of this theory, but it doesn't fit the context of the NT.

COrrection - it doesn't fit YOUR INTERPRETATION if NT Context.

If Paul declared that one who has a tongue can keep silent, saying "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets," then those people could perform miracles at will,

Ridiculous a totally FALSE dichotomy.

which well-fits the context of Paul's instruction to perform the service in order. If the problem of the Corinthians was their performing miracles out of order for the wrong reason, then obviously they could perform it at will.

Miracles?? what "Miracles". all they were doing was blatting in their tongues, without being burdened to deliver a MESSAGE in a tongue, which would be interpreted.

Further, if you claim that modern tongues is a gift of the Spirit, and that people practice it at will, then your idea that "NOBODY OWNS ANY GIFT AT ALL" is self-contradictory, since AG doctrine says that everyone receiving the Spirit speaks in tongues, and that they can practice it at will. So then, are you saying that most of the time you can't speak in tongues at will, even though almost all other AGs say they can?

I speak in tongues at will all the time, however I HAVE NEVER been burdened to deliver a MESSAGE in a tongue to a congregation. The AG DOES NOT say that a person can deliver a MESSAGE IN TONGUES at will - ONLY that their "Prayer language" is always available to them, which I've found to be true. Paul agrees - speaking in an UNINTERPRETED tongue is personally edifying, and is "Speaking to God". I'm in the U.S., and consequently I speak English, but I CAN'T deliver a "prophetic message" just because I feel like it. I have done it when I was Burdened to by the Holy Spirit. Simple as that.
 
I am now convinced that the practice of it in public is the sin of taking the Lord's name in vain

What you may not have thought of is every time you END a prayer with "In Jesus' Name" you're CLAIMING to be speaking with JESUS' OWN AUTHORITY. But since you're not really exercising HIS AUTHORITY at all, your claim is false, and you're taking HIS NAME in vain.
 
What you may not have thought of is every time you END a prayer with "In Jesus' Name" you're CLAIMING to be speaking with JESUS' OWN AUTHORITY. But since you're not really exercising HIS AUTHORITY at all, your claim is false, and you're taking HIS NAME in vain.
Straw man argument to be sure, since I pray according to His will, as specified in His word. Just as your judgment about me is false, so also is your interpretation of scripture, since you don't think anyone exercises Christ's authority.
TD:)
 
Straw man argument to be sure, since I pray according to His will, as specified in His word. Just as your judgment about me is false, so also is your interpretation of scripture, since you don't think anyone exercises Christ's authority.
TD:)

It's pretty OBVIOUS that they don't as evidenced by their lack of power. When's the last time you made a Blind man see, or a Lame person walk?? You gonna hide behind "Cessationism" as a rationalization???
 
COrrection - it doesn't fit YOUR INTERPRETATION if NT Context.
Since I explained it and you don't address it, I doubt that you can refute what I said about it with reason.


Ridiculous a totally FALSE dichotomy.
If you can't explain HOW you think it's a false dichotomy, then your argument falls dead.


Miracles?? what "Miracles". all they were doing was blatting in their tongues, without being burdened to deliver a MESSAGE in a tongue, which would be interpreted.
Such is your claim, since you think what you have (tongue babbling) is what the apostles did, which is untrue. Here is my explanation of the issue based on many years of experience and research:
1. It is quite impossible to prove that modern day tongues is miraculous. At no time has a tongue talker shown that his "language" was understood by anyone, whether it be someone knowing the language, or someone receiving a miraculous interpretation.
2. The interpretations of tongues given today are not shown to be miraculous orations, but only a pretense of them.
3. Tongues of today are not languages, as they never have enough vocabulary or structure to convey any message, according to expert linguists.
4. Tongues of today is a natural human phenomenon, since it has been proven that anyone can do it if they really try. And even Pentecostals believe this, since they expect every person in the congregation to do so (as they receive the Spirit).
5. Many religious sects perform glossolalia in the same manner as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, including those among Hindus, Muslims, and occult religions. This activity is not new, since hundreds of years BC the Greeks believed that a person speaking it was speaking oracles of the gods.

So, just because someone can't understand what the tongue-talker is saying doesn't prove that it's from God. In Acts 2, the crowd knew it was from God because they understood the message (except the sinful unbelieving attitude of some drove them to mock it). So, 3000 people became believers that day. Quite unlike the fruit of modern day tongues.


I speak in tongues at will all the time, however I HAVE NEVER been burdened to deliver a MESSAGE in a tongue to a congregation. The AG DOES NOT say that a person can deliver a MESSAGE IN TONGUES at will - ONLY that their "Prayer language" is always available to them, which I've found to be true. Paul agrees - speaking in an UNINTERPRETED tongue is personally edifying, and is "Speaking to God". I'm in the U.S., and consequently I speak English, but I CAN'T deliver a "prophetic message" just because I feel like it. I have done it when I was Burdened to by the Holy Spirit. Simple as that.
Delivering a message in tongues is not a different manifestation as speaking in tongues (from a Biblical standpoint). It's simply a different venue. So, I wonder if you can explain the apparent contradiction in your language.

There are only 2 "edifications" that I know of (which aren't Biblical edifications) that modern tongues offer:
1. Strengthens a person's faith in modern tongues (which is a distraction from faith in Christ).
2. Makes a person feel better about their religious activity (which I say is a subtle undermining of true humility).

Biblical edification has to do with gaining knowledge of God and bearing the fruit of the Spirit. But these are gained by reading and studying the Bible, public worship, fellowship with Christians, giving of alms, etc. according to the context of 1 Corinthians. But what I see of Pentecostals is the opposite. There is a severe ignorance of scripture and how to correctly interpret it, and they exude pride and elitism according to the prejudice of their doctrine, that whoever hasn't spoken in tongues doesn't have the Spirit.

So can you please explain in detail how you are edified by your practice (barring the fact that I've already given you the Biblical answer)?
TD:)
 
It's pretty OBVIOUS that they don't as evidenced by their lack of power. When's the last time you made a Blind man see, or a Lame person walk?? You gonna hide behind "Cessationism" as a rationalization???
Now you are assuming I'm a cessationist, which is also a false judgment.

And since you bring up miracles, have you made a blind man see or lame person walk? Can you testify what miraculous power you have exercised? Or are you admitting that you also lack power, since you seem to include yourself in the "not anyone exercises Christ's authority"?
TD:)
 
The gifts were temporary by nature, but "the word of our God abides forever." Therefore, the Word is that which is more perfect than the sign gifts.
TD:)
Amen to that.
It is the Lord that qualifies as "that which is perfect is to come".
Gifts of the Holy Spirit "will cease" at the return of Jesus Christ.
 
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