'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

[Ernest T. Bass]

So now the Apostles were unbelievers?


Ok. Got it.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

These are the signs that follow believers.

You seem to think that these signs follow Apostles.

As long as there are believers, there will be these signs.




JLB

In the context of Mark 16 the Apostles were the unbelievers (Mk 16:11-13). When Jesus appeared to the 11 He "upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.'

So yes, in the context the Apostles were the unbelievers and "they" (v17) of the Apostles that believed would be given those signs.

1 Cor 12:29-30 some believers in the first century [when they actually did have have signs] had no sign at all.

 

[for_his_glory]

Paul NEVER said the gifts would cease when Christ returns. But from 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 (see my post #113) when the piece by piece revelation of the NT done by signs was perfected/completed then the in part revelation dine by signs would be done away. The NT was completed by the end of the first century.
Acts 8:14-17 the Aposltes could lay their hands upon another and pass to that person an Apostolic sign (2 Cor 12:12) but that person could not pass it on. When the last Apostle died some 2000 years ago no one was left to pass on these signs. And when the last person whom an Apostle passed a sign to died (some 2000 years ago) then the signs ceased, ended exactly as Paul said.

It's apparent we will not agree with all the both of us have presented. All I know is that when I speak in tongues, especially in prayer, I have no idea of what I am speaking or what the language is as my carnal mind could not produce such words that flow out of my mouth. It's my spirit connecting to God's Spirit as the Holy Spirit gives me what to speak that is a perfect prayer language that Satan can not interrupter.

 

[JLB]

So yes, in the context the Apostles were the unbelievers and "they" (v17) of the Apostles that believed would be given those signs.

So now the Apostles were unbelievers who followed Him for three and a half years, because they didn’t believe?

Ok, now your perspective all makes sense.


JLB

 

[Bob Carabbio]

1 Cor 14 the tongues Paul speaking about was like the tongues spoken by the Apostles in Acts 2 which was known earthly languages. Paul's point is that when a tongue (earthly language) is spoken it must be understood by the hearer else the tongue speaker is speaking to the air, is as a barbarian to the hearer, no edification can take place. If the tongue being spoken cannot be interpreted then the tongue speaker is COMMANDED to keep silent 1 Cor 14:28. Those that claim to speak in "tongues" often times do with no interpretation given which is in direct violation of what Paul said. I personally have NEVER seen one who was claiming to speaking in tongues on a public platform have interpreters.

In which case, you've obviously not had any experience whatsoever in mainline Pentecostal churches (like the Assemblies of God).

Over the last 55 years, I've witnessed many hundreds of "Messages in tongues" normally from the congregatrion gathered, and almost ALWAYS immediately interpreted, either by the tongue speaker, or by another, occasionally myself.

 

[for_his_glory]

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1 Cor 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1 Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Where does it say this was only for the first century only given to the Apostles? God has not ceased giving out these Spiritual gifts through the Holy Spirit. We are one body in Christ with many members.

1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

The church, one body, is very much alive today as it was on the day of Pentecost and the works of the Holy Spirit has yet to cease.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

 

[OzSpen]

1 Cor 13 and Eph 4. I posted about these two texts in post #113.

Ernest,

Nothing you quoted in #113 supports your view that 'the perfect' refers to the completed Scripture. Nothing!

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

--the last 12 verses of Mark 16 are just as genuine as other NT verses. There are those that attack the genuiness of MK 16:16 because they do not like that it teaches the necessity of water baptism in being saved.
--Jesus is not saying men would perform miracles as He did as in raising the dead for NO ONE today can raise the dead. The greater works refers to the work of saving souls by taking the gospel to a lost world.

ETB,

You have invented more theology.

If you visit the British Library and see Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest known MSS of the Bible, one of the four most important uncial MSS of the NT, you will clearly see that Mark 16:9ff is not found at the end of Mark 16. This MSS dates to the fourth century.

The MSS evidence does not synchronise with your theology.

Oz

 

[Hopeful]

The 'he' of verse 16 is singular. The PLURAL pronoun "them" in v17 refers back to the nearest PLURAL antecedent "the eleven" of v14.

You have created a reason to deny a gifts from God.
Too bad.
I speak in tongues every day, much to my own edifying...just as scripture says. (1 Cor 14:4).

 

[Hopeful]

My point was, as the verse says, that the Spirit makes intercession for the Christian when the Christian prays. Nothing miraculously taking place.

Nothing, except the Spirit is doing the interceding.

 

[Hopeful]

in 1 Cor 13:10 the 'in part' was the piece by piece revelation of the NT done by signs. Then when the "in part" is perfect-made whole (which NT was perfected/completed by the end of the first century) then the piece by piece revelation by signs was 'done away'.

I feel that Jesus is the "perfect shall appear" of 1 Cor 13:10.
At His return, prophesy, and other gifts from God, will end.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I feel that Jesus is the "perfect shall appear" of 1 Cor 13:10.
At His return, prophesy, and other gifts from God, will end.

1 Cor 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

--the word perfect in this context means to make whole or complete, it is not about sinless perfection.

--what was "in part" at the time Paul wrote this verse would eventually be "complete". The verse is not about Christ for Christ was never 'in part' Christ was never imperfect only to be perfected completed at some later date. What Paul is talking about that was in part at that time was the signs used to bring about the completed revealed NT. The NT would be complete-perfected by the end of the first century whereby those signs fulfilled their purpose and cease as Paul said.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nothing, except the Spirit is doing the interceding.

But again there is nothing miraculous taking place in Rom 8:26.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You have created a reason to deny a gifts from God.
Too bad.
I speak in tongues every day, much to my own edifying...just as scripture says. (1 Cor 14:4).

I believe the Bible, not what posters on a forum tell me to believe. No one can speak in tongues as it was in the first century church. The indecipherable stream of syllables is not speaking in tongues nor miraculous.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

ETB,

You have invented more theology.

If you visit the British Library and see Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest known MSS of the Bible, one of the four most important uncial MSS of the NT, you will clearly see that Mark 16:9ff is not found at the end of Mark 16. This MSS dates to the fourth century.

The MSS evidence does not synchronise with your theology.

Oz

The evidence is overwhelming that Mk 16:9-20 are inspired, genuine:

Is Mark 16:9-20 Inspired? - Apologetics Press

The science of textual criticism is a field of inquiry that has been invaluable to ascertaining the original state of the New Testament text. Textual criticism involves “the ascertainment of the true form of a literary work, as originally composed and written down by its author” (Kenyon, 1951...

apologeticspress.org

=========

I would also suggest doing internet searches to read what you can find from John Burgon in how the Sinaiticus was found in the garbage:

The Unreliability of the Alexandrian Manuscripts - Preserved Word Ministries

Bible scholarship of the past 150 years has placed much attention on a very small number of manuscripts. While there are over 5000 known New Testament manuscripts, attention has been placed on less than ten. Of these, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus have been exalted as the “oldest and...

www.preservedword.com

"The Sinaiticus was discovered by Constantine Tischendorf in the Greek Orthodox Monastery of St. Catherine, on the Sinai peninsula. Monasteries are known for exceptional libraries, and scholars would often visit to conduct research. St. Catherine’s is no exception. From the monastery’s website:

When Egeria visited the Sinai around the year 380, she wrote approvingly of the way the monks read to her the scriptural accounts concerning the various events that had taken place there. Thus we can speak of manuscripts at Sinai in the fourth century. It is written of Saint John Climacus that, while living as a hermit, he spent much time in prayer and in the copying of books. This is evidence of manuscript production at Sinai in the sixth century. The library at the Holy Monastery of Sinai is thus the inheritor of texts and of traditions that date to the earliest years of a monastic presence in the Sinai. In earlier times, manuscripts were kept in three different places: in the north wall of the monastery, in the vicinity of the church, and in a central location where the texts were accessible.8

This monastery has a library full of old manuscripts. One would then assume that Tischendorf found the prized Sinaiticus one a library shelf, hidden among other manuscripts. Well, this is not exactly the case. He found it in a trash can, waiting to be burnt! Sound incredible? Tischendorf gives his personal testimony:

It was at the foot of Mount Sinai, in the Convent of St. Catherine, that I discovered the pearl of all my researches. In visiting the library of the monastery, in the month of May, 1844, I perceived in the middle of the great hall a large and wide basket full of old parchments; and the librarian, who was a man of information, told me that two heaps of papers like these, mouldered by time, had been already committed to the flames. What was my surprise to find amid this heap of papers a considerable number of sheets of a copy of the Old Testament in Greek, which seemed to me to be one of the most ancient that I had ever seen.9

Why would the monks of St. Catherine’s thrown out such a valuable manuscript? Perhaps because of it’s low quality transcription and it’s “heavily corrected text.”10 Concerning it’s sloppy penmanship, Burgon writes, “On many occasions, 10, 20, 30, 40 words are dropped through very carelessness.11” His colleague, Frederick H. Scrivener, goes into detail:

Letters and words, even whole sentences, are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately canceled: while that gross blunder technically known as Homoeoteleuton…whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same words as the clause preceding, occurs no less than 115 times in the New Testament…Tregelles has freely pronounced that “the state of the text, as proceeding from the first scribe, may be regarded as very rough.”12

Sinaiticus has also been corrected by “…at least ten revisers between the IVth and XIIth centuries…”13 The Codex Sinaiticus Project readily admits:

No other early manuscript of the Christian Bible has been so extensively corrected. A glance at the transcription will show just how common these corrections are. They are especially frequent in the Septuagint portion. They range in date from those made by the original scribes in the fourth century to ones made in the twelfth century. They range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences. 14"

Burgon on Sinaiticus and Vaticanus Textus Receptus Bibles

John Burgon on Sinaiticus and Vaticanus

textusreceptusbibles.com

(my emp)

"On page 11 of his book, Burgon states: "Singular to relate Vaticanus and Aleph have within the last 20 years established a tyrannical ascendance over the imagination of the critics, which can only be fitly spoken of as a blind superstition. It matters nothing that they are discovered on careful scrutiny to differ essentially, not only from ninety-nine out of a hundred of the whole body of extant mss. besides, but even from one another. In the gospels alone B (Vaticanus) is found to omit at least 2877 words: to add 536, to substitute, 935; to transpose, 2098: to modify 1132 (in all 7578): - the corresponding figures for Aleph being 3455 omitted, 839 added, 1114 substituted, 2299 transposed, 1265 modified (in all 8972). And be it remembered that the omissions, additions, substitutions, transpositions, and modifications, are by no means the same in both. It is, in fact, easier to find two consecutive verses in which these two mss. differ the one from the other, than two consecutive verses in which they entirely agree."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest,

Nothing you quoted in #113 supports your view that 'the perfect' refers to the completed Scripture. Nothing!

Oz

The "in part" of 1 Cor 13:10 does refer to the piece by piece revelation of the NT done by signs and when the "in part" is made "complete" then the in part (the signs used to bring about the completed NT) would cease. Same point is made in Eph 4. It is not difficult to understand at all.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In which case, you've obviously not had any experience whatsoever in mainline Pentecostal churches (like the Assemblies of God).

Over the last 55 years, I've witnessed many hundreds of "Messages in tongues" normally from the congregatrion gathered, and almost ALWAYS immediately interpreted, either by the tongue speaker, or by another, occasionally myself.

Was the "tongue" being spoken a known earthly language that was being translated into a lnaguage the hearer could understand?

Again, speaking in an undecipherable steam of syllables is not speaking in tongues nor miraculous.

What takes place in the above video at about the 5:50 mark is NOT speaking in tongues nor miraculous. Since what the person in the video is uttering is NOT a known earthly language therefore anyone can make up out of thin air any "interpretation" to go along with it. I could make up any interpretation for it myself.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1 Cor 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1 Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1 Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1 Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Where does it say this was only for the first century only given to the Apostles? God has not ceased giving out these Spiritual gifts through the Holy Spirit. We are one body in Christ with many members.

1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

The church, one body, is very much alive today as it was on the day of Pentecost and the works of the Holy Spirit has yet to cease.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

Post #113 shows that 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 that those signs were for the purpose of bringing about the completed NT, they would last TILL (a time limiting word) there is a UNITY?ONENESS of 'the faith' with 'the faith' referring to the one system of faoth as taught in the one body of information making up the NT (Eph 4:13).

Jn 20:30-31 John wrote down miraculous signs (these "are written" - perfect tense) whereby those signs performed some 2000 years ago can still induce a belief in people who red about them today. Therefore no signs are needed to repeated today. To claim signs are needed today undermines the purpose of John writing them down. NO ONE today can walk on water, still a storm or raise the dead as Christ did....NO ONE.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So now the Apostles were unbelievers who followed Him for three and a half years, because they didn’t believe?

Ok, now your perspective all makes sense.


JLB

In the context of Mk 16:9-13 the Apostles did not believe about the resurrection when they were told Christ was seen alive. It does NOT say the Apostles never believed at all while following Christ.

 

[JLB]

In the context of Mk 16:9-13 the Apostles did not believe about the resurrection when they were told Christ was seen alive. It does NOT say the Apostles never believed at all while following Christ.

Makes no sense.

Tongues is one of the signs that follow those who believe.

 

[Hopeful]

1 Cor 13:10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

--the word perfect in this context means to make whole or complete, it is not about sinless perfection.

--what was "in part" at the time Paul wrote this verse would eventually be "complete". The verse is not about Christ for Christ was never 'in part' Christ was never imperfect only to be perfected completed at some later date. What Paul is talking about that was in part at that time was the signs used to bring about the completed revealed NT. The NT would be complete-perfected by the end of the first century whereby those signs fulfilled their purpose and cease as Paul said.

I don't agree, as Jesus, while in the flesh, didn't know the "times of the end".
There was somethings He would only be granted from His Father later on.

The gift of tongues is still being given by God, as are prophesy and other gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Don't you consider every time you are led to a new awareness as a gift of God?
Things are being revealed to me all the time, and I consider it prophesy.