Synopsis: My Christian Beliefs

[Deborah13]

In God's permissive will he allowed it to happen.

What those passages mean I don't have a clue right now. Been a long time since I've studied that book.

BTW, I am not angry.

Fair enough.
Thanks

 

[Deborah13]

"IF" someone is a Chrisitan and puts their heart and mind to knowing God's word God WILL help them understand. He wants them to know the truth.

Illumination

Agree

 

[farouk]

Agree

Deborah: Yes, this is what John 7.17 says.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

I'd be happy to go into greater detail on that. Unfortunately you will have to wait until much later tonight or tomorrow, as I am off work today and spending time with my family. I've browsed other posts that have been brought up (mostly by P31 who enjoys stalking me on these forums, LOL) and will address those as well. Until then...

Not to worry, have a wonderful day with your family.

LOL I'm stalking you too, you make me think about things that are usually not directly discussed in any organized way.

 

[Vanguard]

Absolutely he will. I guess what annoys me though is when Christian A says "keep praying and God will reveal the truth" to Christian B whom they disagree with, it doesnt occur to Christian A that B might be right and its them that needs the truth revealing to them.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Someone else sees the bigger picture. People get stuck in their ways and beliefs and are unwilling to consider alternatives...that may prove to be right, or at least offer greater clarity and understanding!

Vangard, What you have described seems difficult, learned, & time consuming just to understand scripture. How would you say you are coming in your efforts as you have described here? Would you say you understand scripture completely, or partially at this point in your study, or close to closing the book on it? Would you say you are open minded even to what you hold true so far?

Danus, my methods of exploring and trying to understand scripture come from years of study, as well as the classes I have taken. My efforts are more for my own path to understanding, gaining knowledge and wisdom, and looking at the religious world through multiple views, as there are multiple cultures and authors within the Bible. There is a deeper message than what is on the surface. Some people can take things at face value and be okay with it. I used to be that way, until God called me to undertake the path I am now on. I have come full circle.

As to my understanding scripture, no one will ever be able to understand everything without fault. We are 2,000 years removed from that era and culture. Writings have been lost or destroyed. We don't have the autographs, only copies. Depending on the Bible you use, it has a specific set of source texts, and those sources do have discrepancies and contradictions. I'll do a post on the Majority Text later as an example. If anything, understand scripture is a daily venture and I pray I gain some insight each and every day. I'll never close the book on it.

I always try to keep an open mind. If verses get revised, so be it. If archaeology discovers something that changes a doctrine, tradition or tenet, so be it. My faith does not rise or fall on some interpreted words. Regardless of how you believe, there is a clear message from God and Jesus within the Bible, and it is to that which I hold dear.

What are some examples of Bible writers (Peter, Paul, John etc.etc.) getting names, places etc. wrong?

I never gave specifics, nor did I say the Apostles. If you want, I can give multiple examples throughout the Bible, and even give you the source texts for comparison (i.e. Byzantine, Alexandrian, etc.). It is important to understand that those errors and contradictions are the work of men, not God.

Vanguard claimed the bad that comes our way is because of our free will choices. Guess what! A child who is molested at 1 month old did NOT cause that to happen. God did "allow" it to occur.

Explain Katrina?

No the child did not make a choice. The child molester did. Good or bad, right or wrong, moral or immoral, we make our own choices and are subject to the consequences thereof.

Katrina was a hurricane. Weather patterns developed and devastated the Gulf of Mexico. It was a natural event. Not everything has to have God at the helm. This is where deism makes a lot of sense (no I am not a deist): God created everything including the laws of nature. He pressed the start button and walked away. Natural disasters are an act of nature, not divine intervention or the lack thereof.

That is a difficult position to accept, especially as a Christian, but it makes sense.

Vanguard, could you expound on #2.

Do you believe that the original texts written by the original authors of the NT were, without doubt, inspired by God?

Good question.

While some may assume I was referring to the Apostles (Webb) I was actually referring to anyone from the time of Moses to 2011 AD (the most recent revisions). Human beings wrote the autographs. Other human beings translated and copied the autographs, or worked from copies of them. The development of differing opinions developed over the course of time. I really need to do an independent thread on this. I just finished a class on it (from texts to translations).

While I personally believe that the NT authors were inspired to write what became known as the NT, I believe their motives behind it were more historical and political. Jesus was just crucified by the Romans, at the demand of the Pharisees (the governing Hebrew [Jewish] religious body). The early Christians had an uphill battle. They were hunted, imprisoned and/or persecuted at every turn. Many would lose faith or feared for their lives, so writings took place to encourage and bolster the hearts and minds of those people.

The Gospels were the individual accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Even between those 4 there are contradictions. That is because each was writing from his point of view. In law enforcement, no 2 witnesses see the same event in the same way. That holds true for the Apostles.

Paul was the biggest author/contributor to the NT. What is interesting is that the Book of Acts has an anonymous author. Most believe it was Luke, judging on the style and characterization, but the author remains nameless. The Book of Hebrews also has an unknown author, and is one of the greatest mysteries within scholarly circles. The Book of Revelation is authored by a man named John, but which John is the subject of many debates. There are 3 possible candidates, but I firmly believe it was John the Apostle.

The Book of Revelation is also prophetic. John describes visions he is having. I am a futurist, so those events haven't happened yet. It also means the dragon [serpent] has yet to be thrown out of Heaven, so at this time (right now) there is no "devil" or "hell." As a matter of fact, Revelation 12:7-12 (HCSB, NASB and KJV) says they were not cast into hell, but down to the earth. That and the KJV gave us the word "hell" although it was a bad interpretation. The Hebrew word is sheol, and the Greek word is hades. Neither means a place of torment, but rather the grave (realm of the dead).

To expand on the idea of Satan, you need to read my OP in the thread about Judaism vs. Christianity: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48892 There is some really good info there.

In the NT when Jesus speaks of the "lake of fire" He is referring to Gehenna, which comes AFTER the rapture and resurrections, and will be the place of torment in the future (not the valley outside of Jerusalem called Gehenna).

I would very much like to tackle two things in the near future: a study of how the Bible came into being, complete with the different texts, languages, translators and history, and an in-depth look at the most confusing book in the Bible: Revelation.

Hope I answered the questions presented. I have to go now, so I'll continue either later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[P31Woman]

While I personally believe that the NT authors were inspired to write what
became known as the NT, I believe their motives behind it were more historical
and political.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable .......

It's the words of scripture not the men themselves that were inspired.

 

[P31Woman]

No the child did not make a choice. The child molester did. Good or bad, right or wrong, moral or immoral, we make our own choices and are subject to the consequences thereof.

Katrina was a hurricane. Weather patterns developed and devastated the Gulf of Mexico. It was a natural event. Not everything has to have God at the helm. This is where deism makes a lot of sense (no I am not a deist): God created everything including the laws of nature. He pressed the start button and walked away. Natural disasters are an act of nature, not divine intervention or the lack thereof.

That is a difficult position to accept, especially as a Christian, but it makes sense.

Katrina occured because we life in a fallen world.

 

[Guest]

When talking about any particular culture, especially an ancient one, you have to look at the political situation as well as the religious, financial, and what wars/conflicts were going on at the time.

Why did an "ancient culture" write the word eternal in the Bible if it's ancient? What about looking at the Salvation and Faith situations as well?

1. Free Will: a gift to humans (not angels or demons) that allows us to make our own choices and governs the consequences thereof. Bad things happen not because God allowed it, but because someone chose to do something bad. It is a far better explanation as to why these things happen other than the vague answers of, "it's God's will, he works in mysterious ways," etc.

Do you think free will gives us the right to obtain salvation through Matthew 7:7

2. The Bible does indeed contain errors. The Bible was written by human beings, not God (he did not sit at a desk and physically write). Yes those people claimed divine inspiration when writing the "Word of God," but you have to wonder if they were sincere or if they did it so no one would try and refute it (this dives into psychology and philosophy). For most of those cases they were always alone when they were divinely inspired (how convenient, no witnesses). In any event, they got names, dates, places and circumstances wrong, and after careful cross referencing, modern day scholars work to revise and correct those errors. The important thing here is that the message of God and Jesus is unchanged. True Christianity does not rise and fall over some early "type-o's."

Why is there Gospels in the Bible named after the Prophets of Jesus? Why is the word 'Holy Spirit' written in the Bible if they weren't aligned with God's heart? If there are errors then prove it and point them out.

3. The Old Testament does not apply to Christians (except maybe Messianic Jews). The OT is the law and history of the Jewish people. Keep in mind that Orthodox Judaism does not believe that Jesus was the messiah as foretold by prophecy. They reject the claim as well as the NT. Christianity is governed by the NT, under the new covenant of Jesus. Churches and clergymen, who are Christian, that use the OT to dictate how we should live do so erroneously. No the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians. You won't find that anywhere in the NT.

Oh but he was the Messiah, Jesus was/is God in the flesh and Jesus is alive right now in Heaven and in the hearts of believers on this earth!! Why do you think the pharisees were angry with him. What Jesus are you following? There is only one Jesus, is there not??

4. It is important to understand religious/biblical history. Most denominations/religions form because one sect within a church does not like or agree with what is going on. They break away under some unified "leader" and the split grows under a new name. Catholics (the first Christians) broke away from Judaism. Protestants broke away from the Roman Catholics. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, non-denominationals, etc. broke away from their respective Protestant parent churches, so on and so forth.

The reasons for the splits are numerous but are not limited to envy, financial considerations, desire for power, different beliefs, animosity, and every other emotion human beings are subject to.

There is only one salvation Vanguard. The only way to God the Father of Spirit is through Jesus Christ in Holy Spirit baptism.

5. To understand scripture you must be willing to go beyond listening to a pastor/priest, reciting verses from memory, and going through the motions on Sunday.

To understand scripture, a person must obtain salvation first through the Grace of God the Father of Spirit.

I often play the devil's advocate in debates and discussions because so many don't like to think outside of mainstream religious views.

Salvation isn't religious. God loving us first before we loved him isn't religious. Avoiding salvation is what's religious.

 

[Webb]

I don't understand why so many are startled by what you say. In general any who have studied to any reasonable degree already know the debate over Isa.7:14 and hell as used in the KJV. Its the specifics you do not get into that leave me wondering. And, yes, I would like to have a few specifics on Bible writers getting places etc. wrong. I will discuss the KJV and its use of hell at a later time as well Isa.7:14.

 

[Webb]

BTW, on several occasions you speak of the importance of "hermeneutics". I assume you have studied Dungan.

 

[Deborah13]

Not stalking but reading many of your post. Still have not found the one that took me on this journey today. Maybe someone else can remember.

I believe it was you who said the Jews did not believe Jesus was the Messiah because he has not fufilled so many of the OT Prophecies.

Can you or anyone else remember that sort of post? I would like to read it in context.

I believe it is true that not all prophecies have been fulfilled that are written in the OT. Doesn't Daniel give prophecy that most believe is about the tribulation, etc.?
I also understand but I could be wrong that the Jews expected the Messiah to come as a saviour King, not as a man riding on a donkey colt.
Are there any OT prophecies that are about the Second Coming? I'm not sure.
Or did Jesus fulfill all OT prophecies about Him?

 

[Vanguard]

Back for a few. Wife and son went to pickup pizza (yea!!!)...

Are there any OT prophecies that are about the Second Coming? I'm not sure.

There is no indication about a 2nd coming in the OT. The idea of the 2nd coming is a NT Christian belief.

Or did Jesus fulfill all OT prophecies about Him?

No He did not. The Christian argument is that He will fulfill them in the 2nd coming.

 

[P31Woman]

Originally Posted by Deborah13
Or did Jesus fulfill all OT prophecies about Him?

Unless someone proves to me otherwise I believe Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies concerning the promised Messiah.

Luke 24:44 (NIV)

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.â€

____________________

Originally Posted by Deborah13
Are there any OT prophecies that are about the Second Coming? I'm not sure.

I believe these OT passages deal with the 2nd coming of Jesus. I believe Ezekiel has some as well.

Daniel 12:9 (KJV)

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Zechariah 14 (NLT)

16 In the end, the enemies of Jerusalem who survive the plague will go up to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, and to celebrate the Festival of Shelters. 17 Any nation in the world that refuses to come to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, will have no rain. 18 If the people of Egypt refuse to attend the festival, the Lord will punish them with the same plague that he sends on the other nations who refuse to go. 19 Egypt and the other nations will all be punished if they don’t go to celebrate the Festival of Shelters.

20 On that day even the harness bells of the horses will be inscribed with these words: Holy to the Lord. And the cooking pots in the Temple of the Lord will be as sacred as the basins used beside the altar. 21 In fact, every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. All who come to worship will be free to use any of these pots to boil their sacrifices. And on that day there will no longer be traders[e] in the Temple of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.

 

[Webb]

Any possibility Zech.14 has reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and not the 2nd coming?

 

[Vanguard]

Unless someone proves to me otherwise I believe Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies concerning the promised Messiah.

He failed to fulfill these...

He is not a descendant of King David.
He did not gather all the Jews back to Israel.
He did not rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, that Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed.
There is no world peace.
Humanity is not united as one under God.
The weapons of war will be destroyed.
All nations will turn to Israel for guidance.
All Jews will know the Torah without studying [reading] it.
All of the dead will rise again.
The Sanhedrin will be re-established.

The list goes on. The Christian rebutall is that the prophecies that were not fulfilled the first time will be fulfilled in the 2nd coming.

The OT does not have a single verse that refers to or indicates the 2nd coming. That is because the Hebrews [Jews], for which the OT is all about (their history and genealogy), wrote that the Messiah will accomplish and fulfill the prophecies during his lifetime on earth, as a man.

Christianity has to have the 2nd coming, otherwise it's all a bust. That is basic Judaism vs. Christianity 101.

Before anyone starts throwing accusations at me, I am just giving factual information relevant to both sides of the argument.

 

[Vanguard]

Any possibility Zech.14 has reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and not the 2nd coming?

Yes, considering she quoted from the NLT, which is a paraphrased version. For a more formal translation...

Zechariah 14:16-21 NASB 16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19 This will be the [h]punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

20 In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a [j]Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.

In context, the chapter is talking about God battling Jerusalem's foes, and God being King over all.

 

[Webb]

You are right on with that one, otherwise it would contradict what Paul wrote to the church of Christ in Corinth regarding His coming.

 

[P31Woman]

He failed to fulfill these...

He is not a descendant of King David.
He did not gather all the Jews back to Israel.
He did not rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, that Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed.
There is no world peace.
Humanity is not united as one under God.
The weapons of war will be destroyed.
All nations will turn to Israel for guidance.
All Jews will know the Torah without studying [reading] it.
All of the dead will rise again.
The Sanhedrin will be re-established.

BTW, there is no agrument there is only the Truth.

The list goes on. The Christian rebutall is that the prophecies that were not fulfilled the first time will be fulfilled in the 2nd coming.

The OT does not have a single verse that refers to or indicates the 2nd coming. That is because the Hebrews [Jews], for which the OT is all about (their history and genealogy), wrote that the Messiah will accomplish and fulfill the prophecies during his lifetime on earth, as a man.

Christianity has to have the 2nd coming, otherwise it's all a bust. That is basic Judaism vs. Christianity 101.

Before anyone starts throwing accusations at me, I am just giving factual information relevant to both sides of the argument.

Your telling on yourself. Christanity is not something that has to "invent" things.

Secondly Jesus does not fail. Cannot happen! God cannot fail. I said Jesus fufilled all the prophecies concerning the coming Messiah. Like it or not that "is" what happened.

The Old Testament and New Testament is about God and His revelation to man.

Luke 3:23-31

New International Version (NIV)

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josek, the son of Joda,
27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David,

 

[P31Woman]

Any possibility Zech.14 has reference to the destruction of Jerusalem and not the 2nd coming?

This comes from Willmington's Guide to the Bible page 258

Thank goodness I found it online so I won't have to type all this! Go to page 258

http://books.google.com/books?id=NeCN2cVnONYC&pg=PA1009&lpg=PA1009&dq=Willmington's+Guide+to+the+Bible++page+258&source=bl&ots=WYLUrkUWmC&sig=mwRHDeZSgWFnc_ydmkQdiU2Xc18&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nPz9UOaEGZCO8wSik4DoCQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Willmington's%20Guide%20to%20the%20Bible%20%20page%20258&f=false

 

[Webb]

In my previous post I meant the Thessalonian church, not Corinth.