Synopsis: My Christian Beliefs

[Vanguard]

Vanguard has claimed Jesus did not fufill the OT Prophecy that the promised Messiah would come from the line of David.

I used scripture to show that is false. The message of that book of Matthew focuses on the Kingship of Jesus. I could have used this passage.

Matthew 1
The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah
(condensed by Vanguard for easier reading)

This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah son of David, the son of Abraham...

Abraham was the father of Isaac...
...Obed the father of Jesse,
and Jesse the father of King David.

David was the father of Solomon...

Matthan the father of Jacob,
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.

Yes, that is all great and wonderful. I am all too familiar with them. That is the biological bloodline from Abraham to Joseph. However, you're missing the point.

Joseph didn't father Jesus, God did. Jesus is God's son, not Joseph's. Jesus can't trace his lineage biologically through Joseph back to David. Thus, according to Judaism, that OT prophecy fails.

Now then, let's set the story straight. How de we get from the OT prophecy to Jesus being the Messiah, if He can't be traced back to David biologically? In the Hebrew culture, brother A could take brother B's wife as his own, in order for brother B's lineage to continue, in the event that brother B died without having any offspring. One story that is evident of this belief is Onan.

Put it in a formula:

A = living brother
B = dead brother
C = dead brother's wife

A+C = B's lineage continues, even though A is the actual father of the child. That is the OT Hebrew belief.

Now apply that theory to God, Joseph and Mary.

A = God
B = Joseph
C = Mary

A+C = B's lineage continues, even though Joseph was not dead. Joseph adopts Jesus, raises Him as his own, and in THIS scenario Jesus fulfills the prophecy without being Joseph's biological child. This is not in the Bible. It is a study of ancient history, and it refutes the Jewish argument against Jesus as the Messiah, using their own OT system of beliefs against them! What's good for one is good for another!

Is this a competition to see who can score the most points or a study of the Word? Let's try to remain objective please lest the thread turn sour.

I agree, and that is what I am trying to do (study the Word). But bad information needs to be refuted.

 

[Guest]

How did Jesus appear in Mary's womb without Mary having sex?

 

[Vanguard]

How did Jesus appear in Mary's womb without Mary having sex?

Dude, seriously?

Matthew 1:18-21 NASB Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace [divorce] her, planned to send her away secretly. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

It's the story of the Immaculate [miracle] Conception.

 

[Guest]

Dude, seriously?

Matthew 1:18-21 NASB Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace [divorce] her, planned to send her away secretly. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

It's the story of the Immaculate [miracle] Conception.

Dude yeah. Hey that's good, you're almost there. Now where did the Holy Spirit come from? Who and What is God John 4:24 - Is the Spirit of God not Holy? Did God who is spirit being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent not manifest himself into flesh?

 

[Vanguard]

Dude yeah. Hey that's good, you're almost there. Now where did the Holy Spirit come from? Who and What is God John 4:24 - Is the Spirit of God not Holy? Did God who is spirit being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent not manifest himself into flesh?

totopic

 

[P31Woman]

Hi P31Woman
I agree with much you write. I aquired a number of books by Wiersbe at an estate sale. I do not agree with much of his theology. It matters not how many degrees anyone has on either side of a discussion, the question is, and always must be, WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH. There are students of the scripture who understand that Zech.14 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem. I Thess.4 very definitely shows that at His 2nd coming Jesus does not set foot on earth. I know this disparages some very favorite doctrines of some, but true nonetheless.

I understand your lack of time as such has also become my lot. I am approaching the mid 80's in life, an ex United States Marine, cowboy and owner of an auto body shop and have now undertaken some additional responsibilities which make it necessary to wean myself not only from the forum to some degree but other matters.

God bless

Hey Webb,

I like degrees held in the hands of strong men of God who have taken being students of the Word much more serious than most.. It helps me. My goal is not to change your mind but to give you an answer to the question you asked me to the best of my ability. (this is not an essential doctrine so it's not really a big deal)

I am going to quote Lawrence O Richards from his 356 Day Devotional Commentary page 619. He like me and the others appear to see no conflict. I do not see a statement of Fact concerning Jesus not stepping on the earth. Could be Jesus is both on the earth and in the air at the same time.......my imagination at work..

This I found interesting.

"They will look on Me, the One they have pierce" Zech. 12:10

This is an odvious reference to Christ, pierced by the nails on Calvary's cross. The Hebrew preposition is perhaps better taken as "look to" rather than "look on" The thought here is that at Christ's second coming after God has "set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem" (vs9) Israel will look to Jesus in faith. (as Num. 21:9, Isa 45:22)

"Strike the Shepherd" Zech. 13:7

This is another passage that the New Testament appkues ti Hesys, (cf Matthew 26:31-32) The Hebrew term "strike" clearly indicated the death of the Shepherd. The Babylonian Talmud, an ancient Jewish commentary, deals with the divergent images of the Messiah in His suffer and triumph by suggest there ae to be 2 Messiah: a suffering Messiah and a triumphant Messiah. Not until Christ's resurrection was it clear how one Person could die for the sins of the people and later appear in power
to rescue them.

"His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives" Zech 14

After the Shepherd is striken, he returns as "the Lord" to fight against Israel's enemies and stand physically on the earth. again only New Testament events enable us to understand how this is possible. The Messiah is both man and God, both striken and triumphant. When He returns He will stand on mountains of Israel and by His presence change their topography and at the same time transform the whole land unitl it as last is holy to the Lord.

 

[Webb]

Hi P31Woman
While I've not mentioned it previously, I have a degree from a university, but that proves nothing, only the Bible is the standard ("let God be true and every man a liar").

Zech.12:10 is a different context than Zech.14:4 as all can read and see. Certainly when He comes they that pierced Him will see Him, not only they but ALL will: "BEHOLD, HE COMETH WITH CLOUDS; AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM: AND ALL KINDREDS OF THE EARTH SHALL WAIL BECAUSE OF HIM. EVEN SO, AMEN", Rev. 1:7. Note, He comes in the "clouds". "THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD", I Thess. 1:17. No scripture brings Him back to this earth, regardless of what men with multiple degrees have, and this fact remains a problem for some popular doctrines.

God bless

 

[Webb]

I think we are off topic, sorry about that,

God bless, webb

 

[Vanguard]

totopic