It makes sense to God, whom I am praying to.
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Corinthians 14:14
JLB
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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T.U.L.I.P. - Irresistible Grace
- Thread starter atpollard
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It makes sense to God, whom I am praying to.
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Corinthians 14:14
JLB
Speaking against the Holy Spirit is what Jesus said was blasphemy.
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 12:32
Please just consider this.
JLB
i pray but not in tongues nor do i have to for God to understand me . lets stop the games whose right whose wrong .i have my beliefs you have yours paul said work out your own salvation with fear and trembling . i am dropping this b4 it moves into another level .
I don’t say, “your wrong” to people.
Im simply sharing what the scriptures say.
I don’t play games with God’s word, as I both fear Him and love Him, and His people.
I simply strive to give each person the truth.
JLB
ok.
i can appreciate that but giving truth is as we see it... there are those who think all this virus stuff is a hoax. that is there truth .there are those who think the vaccine is in form of a chip..relating to the mark of the beast..that is there truth. i have studied the subject in which we disagree out i researched it. i still stand by blaspheme is rejection /unbelief never being born again dieing lost by the definition given by you . we have all blasphemed while lost. the apostle paul did not believe in Jesus yet god chose him and saved him. i used God name in vain .it just dont get any more derogatory than that . i know put this discussion to a close.
Jesus Christ and His teaching is my truth.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
ok this was not the intent of my last point lets clear the air real quickly .i am not nor have i accused you of not holding the truth !!! so i dont appreciate the scripture . we are discussing interpretations . yours for end time is the church go through the tribulation and then took out. mine is we dont go through the great tribulation i have heard all 3 teachings and i see points i can agree with. i still take the side of be ready . might i add my teachings is Jesus Christ and His teaching is my truth also. if you feel the need to farther this discussion feel free to priv message me . let me point out the teachers who are pre trib hold to the teachings as true and has scriptures to back it up . those who favor mid trib ...i do lean in that direction but will not stand %100 on it. then those like you who are trib teachers. i have apostolic oneness friends and some family . i dont tell them they are wrong..
I didn’t mention the tribulation.
I mentioned the three main things that occur at His coming, by posting scripture, and emphasizing or pointing out, what the scripture says. My goal is for both of us to read what the scripture says, and for us to be in agreement, or unity, that is to say, have a common understanding about this subject, based on what the scripture instructs us.
Example:
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
I’m not trying to “interpret” the scripture, I’m simply pointing to the scripture that shows us the resurrection and rapture, occur at His coming.
Do you agree that the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming, based on this passage?
JLB
rapture teachings
i have given you my belief resurrection he takes the Church out dead in christ then those alive and remaining / in between that time is the great tribulation. the discussion is do we get took out before the 7 years /mid way or at the end . my computer is acting up running slow so it hard for me look things up.. i did do a search earlier and found the AOG holds to pre trib .i was surprised . its the timing we are having the indifference with. i have told you and will say this again .i can not prove by thus saith the Lord that pre trib or mid trib or trib is %100 true.. what i can say is he is coming again there will be tribulation and this world will be destroyed by fire . as a born again Child of God he will take care pf me one way or the other ..but no i dont believe in going through the full 7 years i have also said to me its not a timing but be ready. im tired and going to bed
Ok Jerry.
I have given you what the scripture specifically says about when the resurrection and rapture occur, so we can both have a common understanding based on the inspired word.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
This passage teaches us the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming, when He returns, in which the resurrection happens first, then the rapture.
- For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
JLB
time frame time frame
never disagreed with this at all.
i hope maybe this will help in the discussion so i am posting scriptures of all 3 rapture teaching
Pre Tribulation Rapture
Revelation 3:10 ESV / 24 helpful votes
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 ESV / 20 helpful votes
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 20:4 ESV / 18 helpful votes
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Revelation 4:1 ESV / 14 helpful votes
After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
2 Thessalonians 2:3 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ESV / 14 helpful votes
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Matthew 24:1-51 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. ...
1 Thessalonians 4:16 ESV / 13 helpful votes
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Revelation 12:1-17 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, ...
2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? ...
Matthew 24:21 ESV / 10 helpful votes
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
Luke 21:36 ESV / 9 helpful votes
i will do another page .... * disclaimer i am not supporting any of the 3 i simply showing what others has to say with scriptures i still support be ready
Mid-tribulational premillennialism
The mid-tribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of what is popularly called the tribulation period, or during Daniel's 70th Week. The tribulation is typically divided into two periods of 3.5 years each.
amazingly i don't find any site posting scriptures . i will see what i can dig up tribulation rapture i did run on to this for mid trib
easons for Accepting the Pre-millennial View: There are many reasons for accepting the pre-millennial view of our Lord's return to this earth. Dr. Clarence Larkin, in his masterful book Dispensational Truth, offers the following evidence:
The mid-tribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of what is popularly called the tribulation period, or during Daniel's 70th Week. The tribulation is typically divided into two periods of 3.5 years each.
amazingly i don't find any site posting scriptures . i will see what i can dig up tribulation rapture i did run on to this for mid trib
easons for Accepting the Pre-millennial View: There are many reasons for accepting the pre-millennial view of our Lord's return to this earth. Dr. Clarence Larkin, in his masterful book Dispensational Truth, offers the following evidence:
- When Christ comes He will raise the dead, but the Righteous dead are to be raised before the Millennium, that they may reign with Christ during the 1,000 years, hence there can be no Millennium before Christ comes (Rev. 20:5).
- When Christ comes Satan shall be bound, but as Satan is to be bound during the Millennium, there can be no Millennium until Christ comes (Rev. 20:1-3).
- When Christ comes He will separate the "tares" from the "wheat", but as the Millennium is a period of universal righteousness the separation of the "tares" and "wheat" must take place before the Millennium, therefore there can be no Millennium before Christ comes (Matt. 13:40-43).
- When Christ comes Antichrist is to be destroyed, but as Antichrist is to come before the Millennium there can be no Millennium until Christ comes (2 Thess. 2:8; Rev. 19:20).
- When Christ comes the Jews are to be restored to their own land, but as they are to be restored to their own land before the Millennium, there can be no Millennium before Christ comes (Ezek. 36:24-28; Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10).
- When Christ comes it will be unexpectedly, and we are commanded to watch lest He take us unawares. Now if He is not coming until after the Millennium, and the Millennium is not yet here, why command us to watch for an event that is over 1,000 years off?
Preterists believe that all of the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation through midway into chapter 20 have already been fulfilled (most of them around the time of 70 A.D.). Consequently, they consider "this generation" to refer to the generation of those who were alive at the time Christ spoke these words (in 32 A.D.). If we consider the length of a generation to be 40 years, then it would seem that (the date of 70 A.D.), when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed, would support this view.
The futurists, while accepting as fulfilled those prophecies which can definitely be identified in that manner (such as the destruction of Jerusalem (in 70 A.D.), believe that most of these Scriptures just mentioned are yet to be fulfilled in a future period of time known as the "last days". They therefore believe that by "this generation" Christ referred to a future generation yet to live on earth.
Some futurists simply say that Christ was indicating that when these signs began to occur they would all take place within the lifespan of one generation. It seems unlikely, however, that Christ would be indicating that view. Daniel had already told us that everything would have to be fulfilled within a shorter period of time, the seven years of his 70th week. Christ would certainly not extend that seven year period to a generation, for to do so would contradict Daniel.
Futurists: Believe that virtually all prophetic events will not occur in the current church age, but will be fulfilled through events that will occur in the future seven year tribulation, second coming, or millennium. Among those who are pre-tribulation futurists, there are three basic approaches taken in interpreting current events. The 3 classifications are in terms of how one relates prophecy for Israel to the Church age. Loose, Moderate and strict.
What is the preterist view of the end times?
https://www.gotquestions.org/preterist.html for the most qot questions is pretty upfront even being a calvinist page .they do tend to give both sides of the coin . i will let those wanting to review
Question: "What is the preterist view of the end times?"
Answer: According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.
Preterism is divided into two types: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. This article will confine the discussion to full preterism (or hyper-preterism, as some call it).
Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem. Preterism teaches that every event normally associated with the end times—Christ’s second coming, the tribulation, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment—has already happened. (In the case of the final judgment, it still in the process of being fulfilled.) Jesus’ return to earth was a “spiritual” return, not a physical one.
Preterism teaches that the Law was fulfilled in AD 70 and God’s covenant with Israel was ended. The “new heavens and new earth” spoken of in Revelation 21:1 is, to the preterist, a description of the world under the New Covenant. Just as a Christian is made a “new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17), so the world under the New Covenant is a “new earth.” This aspect of preterism can easily lead to a belief in replacement theology.
Preterists usually point to a passage in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse to bolster their argument. After Jesus describes some of the end-times happenings, He says, “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened” (Matthew 24:34). The preterist takes this to mean that everything Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 had to have occurred within one generation of His speaking—the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was therefore “Judgment Day.”
The problems with preterism are many. For one thing, God’s covenant with Israel is everlasting (Jeremiah 31:33–36), and there will be a future restoration of Israel (Isaiah 11:12). The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2:17–18). And Jesus’ mention of “this generation” should be taken to mean the generation that is alive to see the beginning of the events described in Matthew 24.
Eschatology is a complex subject, and the Bible’s use of apocalyptic imagery to relate many prophecies has led to a variety of interpretations of end-time events. There is room for some disagreement within Christianity regarding these things. However, full preterism has some serious flaws in that it denies the physical reality of Christ’s second coming and downplays the dreadful nature of the tribulation by restricting that event to the fall of Jerusalem. ..
in discussions it is good to see both sides .just as i did with osas vs asnas
The futurists, while accepting as fulfilled those prophecies which can definitely be identified in that manner (such as the destruction of Jerusalem (in 70 A.D.), believe that most of these Scriptures just mentioned are yet to be fulfilled in a future period of time known as the "last days". They therefore believe that by "this generation" Christ referred to a future generation yet to live on earth.
Some futurists simply say that Christ was indicating that when these signs began to occur they would all take place within the lifespan of one generation. It seems unlikely, however, that Christ would be indicating that view. Daniel had already told us that everything would have to be fulfilled within a shorter period of time, the seven years of his 70th week. Christ would certainly not extend that seven year period to a generation, for to do so would contradict Daniel.
Futurists: Believe that virtually all prophetic events will not occur in the current church age, but will be fulfilled through events that will occur in the future seven year tribulation, second coming, or millennium. Among those who are pre-tribulation futurists, there are three basic approaches taken in interpreting current events. The 3 classifications are in terms of how one relates prophecy for Israel to the Church age. Loose, Moderate and strict.
What is the preterist view of the end times?
https://www.gotquestions.org/preterist.html for the most qot questions is pretty upfront even being a calvinist page .they do tend to give both sides of the coin . i will let those wanting to review
Question: "What is the preterist view of the end times?"
Answer: According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.
Preterism is divided into two types: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. This article will confine the discussion to full preterism (or hyper-preterism, as some call it).
Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem. Preterism teaches that every event normally associated with the end times—Christ’s second coming, the tribulation, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment—has already happened. (In the case of the final judgment, it still in the process of being fulfilled.) Jesus’ return to earth was a “spiritual” return, not a physical one.
Preterism teaches that the Law was fulfilled in AD 70 and God’s covenant with Israel was ended. The “new heavens and new earth” spoken of in Revelation 21:1 is, to the preterist, a description of the world under the New Covenant. Just as a Christian is made a “new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17), so the world under the New Covenant is a “new earth.” This aspect of preterism can easily lead to a belief in replacement theology.
Preterists usually point to a passage in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse to bolster their argument. After Jesus describes some of the end-times happenings, He says, “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened” (Matthew 24:34). The preterist takes this to mean that everything Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 had to have occurred within one generation of His speaking—the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was therefore “Judgment Day.”
The problems with preterism are many. For one thing, God’s covenant with Israel is everlasting (Jeremiah 31:33–36), and there will be a future restoration of Israel (Isaiah 11:12). The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2:17–18). And Jesus’ mention of “this generation” should be taken to mean the generation that is alive to see the beginning of the events described in Matthew 24.
Eschatology is a complex subject, and the Bible’s use of apocalyptic imagery to relate many prophecies has led to a variety of interpretations of end-time events. There is room for some disagreement within Christianity regarding these things. However, full preterism has some serious flaws in that it denies the physical reality of Christ’s second coming and downplays the dreadful nature of the tribulation by restricting that event to the fall of Jerusalem. ..
in discussions it is good to see both sides .just as i did with osas vs asnas
.
In my post I hoped to find common ground, before we discuss the tribulation.
JLB
i told you on scripture i have no issue btw all my post is nothing more than a look at all sides the pre the mid the trib .i am not interested in discussing tribulation /the great .i actually have posted all i need to . my only thing is time frame. . which seems to be a issue in here . if i say be ready then for some reason it has to go farther
Yes.
It was informative about the different views.
I was aware of the different perspectives and just wanted to find some common ground.
Thanks for your post.
JLB