T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[JLB]

Those d@mn Lutherans were far more numerous and stuck us with the name in the 1500’s as an insult. They said that we were not following Scripture, we were just following the man made teachings of John Calvin ... so we are not Christians, we are “Calvinists”.

It wasn’t the Lutherans that gave you that name, brother, you are the one who claimed you are a Calvinist.


I would never label anyone with such a name unless they themselves said they were.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It is easier to just disengage from her ... again.
I have no idea why she enjoys our conversations when I always find them so unprofitable. (I am SO TIRED of being told that we Reformed just make it all up, but the pages of unsupported Arminian Semi-Pelagian Free Will opinions are all what SCRIPTURE teaches.)

What is
ARMINIAN SEMI-PELAGIAN FREE WILL ???

There are two types of free will being spoken of in this thread:

LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL = FREE WILL as any person would understand it to be.....that is, our ability to choose between two moral alternatives with no outside force .
Philomen 1:14

COMPATIBLE FREE WILL = GOD makes all of us saved persons want exactly what He wants us to want. How else could this be said? It's not a biblical concept so I cannot post any verse.


Then there's philosophical free will.
We're not interested in that on this site.

 

[atpollard]

It wasn’t the Lutherans that gave you that name, brother, you are the one who claimed you are a Calvinist.

I am old, but I was not around in the 1500’s.

 

[JLB]

I am old, but I was not around in the 1500’s.

So why do you call yourself a Calvinist?


Just wondering.



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Galatians 4:6-7 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

If you are born again of the Spirit, you do have an outside force guiding you now.

 

[JLB]

Let’s test that hypothesis.
First assumption is that one is a saint (Perseverance of the Saints does not apply to non-saints).
Second assumption is that a saint (one who is saved) will remain saved until the end (glorification).
So what does Scripture say:

[John 10:27-29 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• “my sheep follow me” indicates that the Saints (Jesus’ sheep) will and do follow him. It does not say SOME sheep, so it must imply that ALL of Jesus’ Sheep (the Saints) will and do follow him. It does not say MAY follow him, or speak of WANDERING OFF, so it is not unreasonable to conclude that ALL of Jesus‘ sheep WILL follow him and keep on following him.
• ”I give eternal life to them” makes the gift a permanent one since ETERNAL life is not ETERNAL if one later looses it.
• “They will never perish” repeats the message just in case you missed it the first time. NEVER perish means never, not until you do perish.
• “No one will snatch them out of my hand” is an assurance of perseverance. Is there any doubt that those in God’s hand are “Saints”?
• “no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand” So no one will and no one is able to. That is assurance of salvation. (PS. If someone ‘jumps’ out of their hands, then they WERE both able to and did ’snatch themselves’ out ... making the claim of Christ false.)

[Ephesians 1:9-11 NLT] 9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.

• We have received ... past tense, so we already have it.
• an inheritance from God ... what is it that we have inherited? Salvation in Christ, or just a chance to earn our own salvation through human effort with eternal damnation the prize for failure?
• according to his plan ... Does God actually work out His plans and see them to completion, or does God just get the ball rolling and hope we can finish his work?

[Ephesians 1:12-14 NLT] 12 God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

• God saves you ... implies nothing but flat out states that it is God that saves, so who is man to unsave?
• The Spirit is God's guarantee ... So is the Holy Spirit a guarantee or not? If He is a guarantee, then the Saints (who have the Holy Spirit) WILL persevere to the end and receive the inheritance (ETERNAL LIFE). If the Saints do not persevere then the Holy Spirit guarantees nothing.

[Romans 8:29-30 NIV] 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

• Predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son ... Those that will ultimately be conformed to the image of Christ are SAINTS, so this extended sentence is about the Saints.
• those he predestined, he also called ... the Saints are all most assuredly called; no Saint remains uncalled.
• those he called, he also justified ... the Saints that are called are assuredly justified; no Saint remains unjustified.
• those he justified, he also glorified ... the Saints that are justified (by the blood of Christ) are most assuredly glorified; no Saint will remain unglorified.
• Throughout this, “those” always refers to exactly the same group of people ... the Saints that will be conformed to the image of his Son ... with their “perseverance” to glorification assured by GOD (the one who is doing all of the action in these verses.)

Thus the claim that “Perseverance of the Saints is not found anywhere in Scripture” appears to be false.

Ok. So far we have found that the term
“Perseverance of the Saints” is not found in scripture.


We have your claim, that certain scriptures contain the meaning or concept of “Perseverance of the Saints”, which is understood to be what?


Maybe you could define the term “Perseverance of the Saints” so we can know what you are referring to.


IOW, I don’t want to assume I know what that means to you.


Maybe you can explain what it means to us.


Again, here is a scripture that uses the word perseverance.


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25 NKJV


This word is rendered as patience in the KJV.



Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; Ephesians 6:18 KJV

Strongs renders this meaning as: Perseverance

Nothing in the Vines.


Webster’s —

Definition of perseverance

: continued effort to do or achieve something despite difficulties, failure, or opposition : the action or condition or an instance of persevering : STEADFASTNESS



JLB

 

[atpollard]

I pass.
You can define anything you want, any way you want.
I feel like I am talking but nobody is listening.

So carry on without me.

 

[atpollard]

So why do you call yourself a Calvinist?

Because I am not an Arminian that believes the semi-Pelagian teachings of Libertarian Free Will as articulated in the Remonstrances and championed by the modern Methodist Church and Church of God and other denominations influenced by the “Holiness Movement”.

I believe the 5 points of TULIP as first affirmed by the Synod of Dort in response to the Remonstrances. The common modern term for someone that believes the 5 points of TULIP that are clearly taught in scripture, is a “Calvinist”.

Being a Calvinist does not mean, and has never meant, that I follow the teachings of John Calvin (or any other man).

(I hope that was clear enough, but I doubt it will make any difference.)

 

[atpollard]

COMPATIBLE FREE WILL = GOD makes all of us saved persons want exactly what He wants us to want. How else could this be said? It's not a biblical concept so I cannot post any verse.

• [Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
• [Ezekiel 36:26 NASB] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
• [Romans 9:18 NASB] 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
• [Philemon 2:13 NLT] 13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

It is a biblical concept.

 

[JLB]

Because I am not an Arminian that believes the semi-Pelagian teachings of Libertarian Free Will as articulated in the Remonstrances and championed by the modern Methodist Church and Church of God and other denominations influenced by the “Holiness Movement”.

Really don’t know what all that is.

I am just a Christian, who follows the teachings of Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Being a Calvinist does not mean, and has never meant, that I follow the teachings of John Calvin (or any other man).

(I hope that was clear enough, but I doubt it will make any difference.)

Ok.

Not everyone has the same outlook as you.


Webster Dictionary—

Definition of Calvinism. : the theological system of Calvin and his followers marked by strong emphasis on the sovereignty of God, the depravity of humankind, and the doctrine of predestination.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

That might be a good idea.


Start a thread about a certain topic and uses one or two scriptures that make your point and discuss that one scripture or point.



JLB

LOL
This is what I tried to do!
It's natural, however, for topics to become overlapping at times.
No problem....(as long as we get back to topic soon).

 

[PeterJens]

I pass.
You can define anything you want, any way you want.
I feel like I am talking but nobody is listening.

So carry on without me.

I understand that feeling.
I wonder if our perceptions, how we become convinced of one idea over another has a purely emotional basis. There are fundamental themes in life, how much we are able to choose our reactions, and how much are reactions occur, and we run along with the flow.

It is far easier to draw conclusions, reduce things down to a polarised response, and then just make a choice. This brings security, so the list TULIP means something.

But I see TULIP as a starting place, to which the armenian views are another view.
I read on a forum about a believer being slain in the spirit, therefore this must be of God and the speaker must be speaking His truth. Fainting never defined authority, only emotional depth of feeling, yet here is an extrapolation into the fanciful.

God gives us real warnings. A prophet told to eat on the way to and from giving Gods message would cost him his life. Another prophet said God had changed his mind. So he ate, God judged him and a lion killed him. Korah rose up, convinced Moses and Aaron were wrong, without seeking Gods confirmation, and Korah was destroyed.

Only Jesus and His word can be our guide, and in all things we are mere followers, leaning on His inspiration and light.

So I say God is soveriegn, and He chooses to give us free will, and the power to share like this and discover His will and ways. What is hardest for me to comprehend is God uses it all, literally to fulfil His purposes. When I grasp just a slight glimmer of this, I fall back in awe and wonder. The limits He sets, confound us and our sense of justice, yet He always waits for the true fruit to appear and make plain His blessing and His judgement.

So we are hearing all you are saying, yet respond differently than you expect.
Have you ever wondered why? Perhaps there are other views and insights that God may provide and use?

 

[PeterJens]

In our discussions, it is clear, a believer is a heart transformed individual, where the principles and spiritual realities of Christ have taken root. It is not as if this is a aspiration, rather a reality, the word become flesh in our hearts.

In a sense Peter and Paul are saying, maturity is our walk, and in this walk we enter into the Kingdom. By abandoning the walk, it reflects the word not taking root, and its out workings being stunted and rejected.

I realised an image some months ago. There is no greater walk than the walk with Jesus and His ways. To see love and beauty flow is a glorious thing. It is simple, acts of love and kindness, empathy and understanding along the way. In eternity, this walk is still our walk, except deeper and more open. So when those who have started abandon it for the world, upon what is their hope now based?

What in eternity with free will, will they return to? What will happen is the heart in rebellion will find the door closed and their heart incapable of responding to Christ in love, but only in lostness and abandonment, weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The elect will persevere for that is their maturity in Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Galatians 4:6-7 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

If you are born again of the Spirit, you do have an outside force guiding you now.

That force GUIDES us.
It does not IMPEL us to do as He wishes.
This is called free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

bbb

• [Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
• [Ezekiel 36:26 NASB] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
• [Romans 9:18 NASB] 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
• [Philemon 2:13 NLT] 13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

It is a biblical concept.

Proverbs 21:1 God can do whatever He wishes. Agreed.

Ezekiel 36:26 This is referring to the New Covenant...God will give to those in the New Covenant a new heart that will follow His laws out of love,,,,and not out of obligation.

Romans 9:18 God will have mercy on those who follow His conditions for that mercy----He alone can determine those conditions. (which are clearly laid out in scripture; as a just God would of course do so that we may know how to be saved).

Aside from this,,,yes, God can harden anyone He wants to,,,but it is not taught in scripture that He EITHER:
Has mercy on someone
or
Hardens someone

In almost all cases that we know about...the person acted of their own free will.

Jonah......why would God have to beg him to go to Nineveh IF God predetermined that J would have to?
Was God arguing against Himself??
Jonah 1:1......
1 The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

3 But Jonah ran away from the Lord and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the Lord.



Philemon 2:13 This verse does not exist in Philemon.

 

[PeterJens]

That force GUIDES us.
It does not IMPEL us to do as He wishes.
This is called free will.

I like these words, but emotionally, do they convey the force going on.
I love my wife, and over various ups and downs recently, that love has grown stronger.
I am impelled by that love, partly out of choice, but also knowing who she is.

A person in love, is a slave to this involvement, to the song that draws them onward.
So I feel in an objective, distant sense, we are guided, and not impelled like a slave in chains, forcing us to put one foot in front of the other.

But equally I am not free, because the more I see of Jesus the deeper I must go.
Paul conveyed this reality calling it slavery.

He also talked by the awareness in himself trying to obey the law for its own sake only led to condemnation by the law, and had no power to fulfil it. But after meeting Jesus, repenting and getting his heart right before the Lord, walking in the Spirit changed everything.

So Paul found himself a slave to sin, set free and forgiven to become a slave to righteousness.

So here I humbly suggest, our language often fails us, and we say very similar things, while not seeing the words refer to different reference points and contexts. I wish I was not bound by my heart and flows of feelings and insights, but it appears it defines who God created us to be in Him. So I can but humbly bow and praise Him for His gifts and life He shares with us, Amen

 

[GodsGrace]

I like these words, but emotionally, do they convey the force going on.
I love my wife, and over various ups and downs recently, that love has grown stronger.
I am impelled by that love, partly out of choice, but also knowing who she is.

A person in love, is a slave to this involvement, to the song that draws them onward.
So I feel in an objective, distant sense, we are guided, and not impelled like a slave in chains, forcing us to put one foot in front of the other.

But equally I am not free, because the more I see of Jesus the deeper I must go.
Paul conveyed this reality calling it slavery.

He also talked by the awareness in himself trying to obey the law for its own sake only led to condemnation by the law, and had no power to fulfil it. But after meeting Jesus, repenting and getting his heart right before the Lord, walking in the Spirit changed everything.

So Paul found himself a slave to sin, set free and forgiven to become a slave to righteousness.

So here I humbly suggest, our language often fails us, and we say very similar things, while not seeing the words refer to different reference points and contexts. I wish I was not bound by my heart and flows of feelings and insights, but it appears it defines who God created us to be in Him. So I can but humbly bow and praise Him for His gifts and life He shares with us, Amen

I agree.
I take impel to mean here, to push forward...whereas I understand the Holy Spirit to pull slightly so as not to interfere with our free will.

Pushing forward is a more active (maybe violent) action...
the pulling by the Holy Spirit allows us to KNOW what action God would want us to take but without forcing His will upon us and thus leaving us to our free will.

If we lacked this free will, there would be no personal responsibility for our sinning --- as you have often noted.

As to husband/wife relationships...
I'd say that we are ALWAYS guided by our spouse...
and sometimes we are even IMPELLED to do as they wish, for one reason or another, or simply because it's the right thing to do.

I can't think of a time when God would impel us to do something....

 

[GodsGrace]

In our discussions, it is clear, a believer is a heart transformed individual, where the principles and spiritual realities of Christ have taken root. It is not as if this is a aspiration, rather a reality, the word become flesh in our hearts.

In a sense Peter and Paul are saying, maturity is our walk, and in this walk we enter into the Kingdom. By abandoning the walk, it reflects the word not taking root, and its out workings being stunted and rejected.

I realised an image some months ago. There is no greater walk than the walk with Jesus and His ways. To see love and beauty flow is a glorious thing. It is simple, acts of love and kindness, empathy and understanding along the way. In eternity, this walk is still our walk, except deeper and more open. So when those who have started abandon it for the world, upon what is their hope now based?

What in eternity with free will, will they return to? What will happen is the heart in rebellion will find the door closed and their heart incapable of responding to Christ in love, but only in lostness and abandonment, weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The elect will persevere for that is their maturity in Him.

Good points all of the above.
You mention the Kingdom of God here many times -- something I believe the church of today is lacking; most churches anyway.

As to our new heart....
Ezekiel is speaking about giving us a new heart which is what God has wanted all along.

in the O.T. we carried on with a heart of stone,,,trying to win God's favor by following every Law and found that this could not be done.

Even in the O.T.,,,persons were saved by their faith...by their soft heart.

Jesus, as God's final revelation, came to show us that by loving Him and following Him,,,we could all of us have a softened heart that can follow God's commandments because we love Him.

Anyone that wishes to join the community of believers, the Church, the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant surely will be given this new heart by God Himself.

 

[LovethroughDove]

PeterJens and wondering, posts 157 and 158 are beautiful with the pictures you are creating with your words.

Who ever thought that being a slave to something could be a good thing? But, being a slave to love is the only good thing. (that is the paradox here) It is almost against our will, because our will is to be selfish.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.