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T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

wondering said:
Now...I can't force you to discuss with me...
Click to expand...
You stated that scripture does not teach something, and then ignored all of the verses that teach the very thing you claim scripture does not teach. Of course they are the usual verses, you keep claiming that the Bible does not teach anywhere the very thing in those verses, so I keep presenting the same verses to again prove that they do exist.
 
atpollard said:
You stated that scripture does not teach something, and then ignored all of the verses that teach the very thing you claim scripture does not teach. Of course they are the usual verses, you keep claiming that the Bible does not teach anywhere the very thing in those verses, so I keep presenting the same verses to again prove that they do exist.
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But the O.P. is discussing 1 Cor 15:1-2

You pick the PART of the post that suits YOU and reply to that.
Let's stick to scripture and discuss scripture...not change the subject.

You have the usual verses....
Must we always discuss John 10?

Can we do one at a time?

The O.T. AND the N.T. do not teach eternal security.
The teaching was not even in anyone's head until 1,500 years after Jesus died.

So, yes, I will keep on repeating that eternal security is not biblical. Because if it is.....some of Christianity does not know the same God the rest of Christianity does.

John 10...
I know my sheep
My sheep hear my voice
My sheep HEAR my voice.

WHEN do they hear the voice?
What tense is HEAR?

We HAVE HEARD....
this is the past and it stays in the past.

I hate discussing tenses.

Want to try your luck with 1 Cor 15:1-2?

I didn't think so.
 
atpollard said:
You stated that scripture does not teach something, and then ignored all of the verses that teach the very thing you claim scripture does not teach. Of course they are the usual verses, you keep claiming that the Bible does not teach anywhere the very thing in those verses, so I keep presenting the same verses to again prove that they do exist.
Click to expand...

What scripture is it you would like to discuss concerning perseverance of the saints?


I posted this scripture a while back.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24

What is Paul saying we wait for with perseverance, which is another way of saying patience?


JLB
 
JLB said:
What scripture is it you would like to discuss concerning perseverance of the saints?
Click to expand...

[John 6:44 NASB]​
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

Will “him” that the FATHER draws and COMES to Jesus really be raised on the last day?
  • No! If many of “him” do not persevere and fall away ... making Jesus a liar.
  • Yes! If GOD really does preserve all the “him” that GOD draws to Jesus, so they persevere to the end ... meaning that Jesus told the truth.
 
JLB said:
For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24

What is Paul saying we wait for with perseverance, which is another way of saying patience?
Click to expand...

[Romans 8:18-25 NASB]​
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he [already] sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.​

v.18: This paragraph is a discussion by Paul comparing the current physical suffering of the persecuted Saints with “the glory that is to be revealed in us”. We can surmise from verb tense that the suffering is in the present and the glory is in the future.
v.19: This suffering and glory impacts not only the individual, but all of creation. All of creation wants to see the glory revealed in us.
v.20: The unwilling subjection of creation is clearly from the hand of God and is typically understood to be a reference to the CURSE that God placed on the ground because of Adam.
v.21: This is a promise that the corruption (death) that happens in the world itself will be ended when the glory is revealed in us.
v.22: The whole physical world is suffering along with the Saints to whom Paul is writing, so we are not longing and suffering alone.
v.23: We have received a taste of what is to come, the first fruits of our adoption. However the first fruits are not the harvest, they are only a ’taste’ of what the harvest will be. Since we have had a taste of what is to come, we groan with longing for the actual harvest. We long for the glory to be fully revealed in us.
v.24: We have been saved from death. We have become the bride of Christ. We are united with Christ as His body. Yet we are not yet deathless. We have not yet been glorified. We are not yet in the New Jerusalem worshiping God in his presence forever. Our hope is only partially realized and we await its full realization. If we were already immortal, glorified and in heaven ... we would not be living in hope of what is to come.
  • hope = [G1680] ἐλπίς elpís, el-pece'; from a primary ἔλπω élpō (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence:—faith, hope
  • So our “hope” is more than wishful thinking, it is anticipation with expectation of receiving that for which we hope.
v.25: So expecting what we do not yet see (our glorification), we wait eagerly for it. When it says that “with perseverance we wait” it does not mean that we struggle under our own strength to ‘keep on keeping on’; it means we wait with “cheerful” and “hopeful” endurance.
  • perseverance = [G5281] ὑπομονή hypomonḗ, hoop-om-on-ay'; from G5278; cheerful (or hopeful) endurance, constancy:—enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting).
So the entire paragraph, including verse 24, is about enduring physical hardship because of the confidence we have that the first fruits of our glory will one day see a harvest in our glorification (and all of creation along with us).

It is all about the faithfulness of God.
 
atpollard said:
​
[Romans 8:18-25 NASB]​
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for [our] adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he [already] sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.​

v.18: This paragraph is a discussion by Paul comparing the current physical suffering of the persecuted Saints with “the glory that is to be revealed in us”. We can surmise from verb tense that the suffering is in the present and the glory is in the future.
v.19: This suffering and glory impacts not only the individual, but all of creation. All of creation wants to see the glory revealed in us.
v.20: The unwilling subjection of creation is clearly from the hand of God and is typically understood to be a reference to the CURSE that God placed on the ground because of Adam.
v.21: This is a promise that the corruption (death) that happens in the world itself will be ended when the glory is revealed in us.
v.22: The whole physical world is suffering along with the Saints to whom Paul is writing, so we are not longing and suffering alone.
v.23: We have received a taste of what is to come, the first fruits of our adoption. However the first fruits are not the harvest, they are only a ’taste’ of what the harvest will be. Since we have had a taste of what is to come, we groan with longing for the actual harvest. We long for the glory to be fully revealed in us.
v.24: We have been saved from death. We have become the bride of Christ. We are united with Christ as His body. Yet we are not yet deathless. We have not yet been glorified. We are not yet in the New Jerusalem worshiping God in his presence forever. Our hope is only partially realized and we await its full realization. If we were already immortal, glorified and in heaven ... we would not be living in hope of what is to come.
  • hope = [G1680] ἐλπίς elpís, el-pece'; from a primary ἔλπω élpō (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence:—faith, hope
  • So our “hope” is more than wishful thinking, it is anticipation with expectation of receiving that for which we hope.
v.25: So expecting what we do not yet see (our glorification), we wait eagerly for it. When it says that “with perseverance we wait” it does not mean that we struggle under our own strength to ‘keep on keeping on’; it means we wait with “cheerful” and “hopeful” endurance.
  • perseverance = [G5281] ὑπομονή hypomonḗ, hoop-om-on-ay'; from G5278; cheerful (or hopeful) endurance, constancy:—enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting).
So the entire paragraph, including verse 24, is about enduring physical hardship because of the confidence we have that the first fruits of our glory will one day see a harvest in our glorification (and all of creation along with us).

It is all about the faithfulness of God.
Click to expand...


Thank you for your well thought out response.


I take it this is your answer:

v.25: So expecting what we do not yet see (our glorification), we wait eagerly for it.

Here is verse 24 and 25.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


Here is the subject of verse 24, in which his explanation continues through verse 25.


For we were saved in this hope...

Paul goes on by using the language of faith, which is hope and not seen (See Hebrews 11:1), to describe the continuing patience (perseverance) that each of us must undergo as we wait for the salvation that we now have faith for, that is yet unseen, but that we hope for it.



JLB
 
wondering said:
You pick the PART of the post that suits YOU and reply to that.
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Respectfully, I responded to the part of the post that was a statement in direct contradiction to my beliefs. Surely you can understand why I would respond to a direct claim that scripture nowhere teaches what I believe.
 
wondering said:
Want to try your luck with 1 Cor 15:1-2?

I didn't think so.
Click to expand...
Sure.

[1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB] 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

I agree with that.
The Gospel was made known to me.
I did receive the Gospel.
I do stand in my firm belief in the truth of the Gospel.
I, and all Christians, are saved if they hold fast to the words (those that hear and reject the words are unsaved as are those that hold fast to a false gospel that denies the Christ).
... unless, of course, we believed in vain.

Believed what in vain?

[1 Corinthians 15:3-5 NASB] 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

So what does it mean to “believe” the above “in vain”?
It means unless we believe something that is not true. We have believed in vain if Christ did not die for our sins. We believe in vain if Christ was not buried and rose from the dead. We believe in vain in nobody really saw the resurrected Christ.

That is why Paul goes through the effort to establish the resurrection of Christ as a fact in the chapter. His point is that we have not believed in vain.

So what is there in 1Corinthians 15:1-2 that you expected me to object to and run away from?
 
wondering said:
Must we always discuss John 10?
Click to expand...
How about John 3?

[John 3:19-20 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

So who is it that does no evil?
Does this not say everyone that does evil “hates the Light” and “does not come to the Light”?
If Jesus is the light and all men that do evil hate Him and do not come to Him, then how does anyone get saved?
Who are these people that do no evil so they do not HATE Jesus and will come to Him?


(I know you asked for one verse at a time, but I hope you will accept two consecutive verses.) ?
 
atpollard said:
Sure.

[1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB] 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

I agree with that.
The Gospel was made known to me.
I did receive the Gospel.
I do stand in my firm belief in the truth of the Gospel.
I, and all Christians, are saved if they hold fast to the words (those that hear and reject the words are unsaved as are those that hold fast to a false gospel that denies the Christ).
... unless, of course, we believed in vain.


Believed what in vain?

[1 Corinthians 15:3-5 NASB] 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

So what does it mean to “believe” the above “in vain”?
It means unless we believe something that is not true. We have believed in vain if Christ did not die for our sins. We believe in vain if Christ was not buried and rose from the dead. We believe in vain in nobody really saw the resurrected Christ.
Click to expand...

Believing in vain does not mean to believe something that is untrue. It means that we have let go of that belief and thus have believed in vain since it no longer is of any good to us. To believe in vain means that the belief is of no purpose. In this the belief will be of no purpose because the belief was abandoned.

The word IF is conditional....the first part of the sentence is true IF the second part of the sentence is adhered to.

Paul is stating that the gospel has not changed from the last time he preached it to them.

Paul tells them that their faith is built upon this good news that saved them IF they still firmly believe it. They need to STILL FIRMLY BELIEVE IT IF they want this good news to save them.

What they need to believe in order to be saved is irrelevant. What Paul is telling them is that they need to STILL believe it IF they want to be saved.

Here is what vain means.....NOT AT ALL how YOU explained it:

2. in vain; without success or effect: 1 Corinthians 15:2; Galatians 3:4; Galatians 4:11. (From Xenophon, Aeschylus down.)

source: https://biblehub.com/greek/1500.htm

IF they had not STILL believed the message...they would have believed without success or effect.

IOW, they would be lost UNLESS they still firmly believed.




That is why Paul goes through the effort to establish the resurrection of Christ as a fact in the chapter. His point is that we have not believed in vain.
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No A,,,,as I explained above, you are not exegeting these two verses properly.

Even Strong's does not agree with you.

So what is there in 1Corinthians 15:1-2 that you expected me to object to and run away from?
Click to expand...
What it really means...which the reformed rewrite.
 
atpollard said:
How about John 3?

[John 3:19-20 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

So who is it that does no evil?
Does this not say everyone that does evil “hates the Light” and “does not come to the Light”?
If Jesus is the light and all men that do evil hate Him and do not come to Him, then how does anyone get saved?
Who are these people that do no evil so they do not HATE Jesus and will come to Him?


(I know you asked for one verse at a time, but I hope you will accept two consecutive verses.) ?
Click to expand...
The ones that have not believed in Him have been judged already, and WHY??

BECAUSE they have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Because they have not believed.....
God would send someone to hell because HE did not allow them to believe? God is Love,,,God is Merciful,,,God is Just.
Where is the love in that?
Where is the mercy in that?
Where is the justice in that?

Paul in Romans 9:1-3 cries for his fellow Jews. He has great sorrow and unceasing grief in his heart.

Looks like Paul loves mankind more than God does.



Yes. Everyone that does evil hates the light and
DOES NOT COME TO THE LIGHT.
They purposefully stay away. They stay in the dark and do not COME to the light.

Jesus said in John 5:40 that some were NOT WILLING to go to Him....
This means of their own Free Will.
Why would Jesus accuse anyone of not going to Him, if He is God and would know the rules of the Kingdom? He would have known that it was up to God to make them go to Him....
and yet Jesus said they were not WILLING to go to Him.
Please think about this.

And your last question:
How do these people that hate the light get saved?
They see the light:

John 5:24
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

1. someone HEARS the word.
2. he believes God.
3. he gets eternal life.
4. he has passed out of death into life
or out of darkness into the light.
 
atpollard said:
​
[John 6:44 NASB]​
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

Will “him” that the FATHER draws and COMES to Jesus really be raised on the last day?
  • No! If many of “him” do not persevere and fall away ... making Jesus a liar.
  • Yes! If GOD really does preserve all the “him” that GOD draws to Jesus, so they persevere to the end ... meaning that Jesus told the truth.
Click to expand...

Verse 44 is prefaced by these verses, and establishes the context.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:38-40

  • that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. John 6:43-47


The context is referring to all those who came to Him during His earthly ministry; ie His disciples.

That is what the rest of the chapter is about, some disciples that followed Him, and some that turned away from Him after following Him for a while.

Verse 66: From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”


We know the God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance.


Here is further context about raising up those on the last Day, as He prefaced from chapter 5 —

Those who will come forth in the resurrection of eternal life:

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—

  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
  • and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.






JLB
 
atpollard said:
Except for all of the verses presented in Post #3. ?
Click to expand...


Yes please start a thread about eternal security, and explain what it is and what it means, using two or three scriptures that teach us we are eternally secure.


Let’s try to keep this one about perseverance of the saints.




JLB
 
wondering said:
What it really means...which the reformed rewrite.
Click to expand...
You say you want to talk.
You say that I don’t want to talk with you.

Every post you make to me includes a personal insult.
Why on earth would I want to return for more of your personal attacks?

Talk to the hand and try to figure out WHY they might have believed in vain on your own. God will open your eyes or he will not. Either way, you are not my problem.
 
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