T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[JLB]

Every post you make to me includes a personal insult.
Why on earth would I want to return for more of your personal attacks?

Talk to the hand and try to figure out WHY they might have believed in vain on your own. God will open your eyes or he will not. Either way, you are not my problem.

Come on now.

Let’s don't start this kind of dialog.

I understand things get heated when people are passionate about what they believe.

Please cool off, and copy and paste some insults she made at you and I will review and delete as necessary.

You have a good knowledge of the scriptures and should focus on making your points from the scriptures.


The truth will prevail.


Be at peace.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Perseverance of the saints = eternal security.
Both mean that the JUSTIFIED will not be LOST; they will be GLORIFIED.

The request is nonsensical.

I was hoping you would start a thread about each letter of
TULIP so I can learn what you believe and why, rather than assume I know.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

I was hoping you would start a thread about each letter of
TULIP so I can learn what you believe and why, rather than assume I know.

OK. That makes more sense than suggesting we need another topic on the exact same subject.

 

[JLB]

Let’s test that hypothesis.
First assumption is that one is a saint (Perseverance of the Saints does not apply to non-saints).
Second assumption is that a saint (one who is saved) will remain saved until the end (glorification).
So what does Scripture say:

[John 10:27-29 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• “my sheep follow me” indicates that the Saints (Jesus’ sheep) will and do follow him. It does not say SOME sheep, so it must imply that ALL of Jesus’ Sheep (the Saints) will and do follow him. It does not say MAY follow him, or speak of WANDERING OFF, so it is not unreasonable to conclude that ALL of Jesus‘ sheep WILL follow him and keep on following him.
• ”I give eternal life to them” makes the gift a permanent one since ETERNAL life is not ETERNAL if one later looses it.
• “They will never perish” repeats the message just in case you missed it the first time. NEVER perish means never, not until you do perish.
• “No one will snatch them out of my hand” is an assurance of perseverance. Is there any doubt that those in God’s hand are “Saints”?
• “no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand” So no one will and no one is able to. That is assurance of salvation. (PS. If someone ‘jumps’ out of their hands, then they WERE both able to and did ’snatch themselves’ out ... making the claim of Christ false.)

[Ephesians 1:9-11 NLT] 9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.

• We have received ... past tense, so we already have it.
• an inheritance from God ... what is it that we have inherited? Salvation in Christ, or just a chance to earn our own salvation through human effort with eternal damnation the prize for failure?
• according to his plan ... Does God actually work out His plans and see them to completion, or does God just get the ball rolling and hope we can finish his work?

[Ephesians 1:12-14 NLT] 12 God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

• God saves you ... implies nothing but flat out states that it is God that saves, so who is man to unsave?
• The Spirit is God's guarantee ... So is the Holy Spirit a guarantee or not? If He is a guarantee, then the Saints (who have the Holy Spirit) WILL persevere to the end and receive the inheritance (ETERNAL LIFE). If the Saints do not persevere then the Holy Spirit guarantees nothing.

[Romans 8:29-30 NIV] 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

• Predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son ... Those that will ultimately be conformed to the image of Christ are SAINTS, so this extended sentence is about the Saints.
• those he predestined, he also called ... the Saints are all most assuredly called; no Saint remains uncalled.
• those he called, he also justified ... the Saints that are called are assuredly justified; no Saint remains unjustified.
• those he justified, he also glorified ... the Saints that are justified (by the blood of Christ) are most assuredly glorified; no Saint will remain unglorified.
• Throughout this, “those” always refers to exactly the same group of people ... the Saints that will be conformed to the image of his Son ... with their “perseverance” to glorification assured by GOD (the one who is doing all of the action in these verses.)

Thus the claim that “Perseverance of the Saints is not found anywhere in Scripture” appears to be false.

Here is your post #3.


I addressed some of the scriptures in your post but never found the the phrase “perseverance of the saints”.


What does perseverance mean to you?


I believe it means patience.


Can we discuss this word and reason together about how patience comes about in the believer?






JLB

 

[atpollard]

Please cool off, and copy and paste some insults she made at you and I will review and delete as necessary.

It is easier to just disengage from her ... again.
I have no idea why she enjoys our conversations when I always find them so unprofitable. (I am SO TIRED of being told that we Reformed just make it all up, but the pages of unsupported Arminian Semi-Pelagian Free Will opinions are all what SCRIPTURE teaches.)

 

[JLB]

(I am SO TIRED of being told that we Reformed just make it all up, but the pages of unsupported Arminian Semi-Pelagian Free Will opinions are all what SCRIPTURE teaches.)

I hear you.


What in the world is: Arminian Semi-Pelagian Free Will opinions?


To me, I really don’t know what those labels are and what they mean.


I really don’t want to know either.


I know this, Jesus Christ expects us to believe and teach His Doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Those who do not continue in His doctrine, do not have Christ any longer.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12



JLB

 

[atpollard]

I addressed some of the scriptures in your post but never found the the phrase “perseverance of the saints”.

We have this dance a lot.
There are many things that scripture teaches that are often presented in different ways using different words and phrases that all mean the same essential truth. For example “chosen” and “elect” and “those He predestined” all refer to the same group of people in different verses. They are NOT the “tares” and “goats” and “antichrists” that have a diametrically opposed eternal destiny. So there is nothing sinister or wrong with creating a word to discuss these two groups of people that are represented over and over throughout scripture. In the 1500’s one group of theologians (also not a bad word) chose “Elect” and “Reprobate”as terms to conveniently refer to each group when discussing various scriptures about one or both of them.

”Perseverance of the Saints” is a descriptive phrase. We all probably agree on what a SAINT is (whether any specific verse uses the term or not) ... for example, when Jesus separates the wheat from the tares, is there any doubt that the “wheat” is the “Saints”. “of the” is also a word combination with a simple, obvious meaning. That just leaves “Perseverance” as the only word that even has the possibility of being tricky.

If I said “Sam persevered in the 1K race.” most people would understand that to mean that Sam continued running in the race until Sam reached the end and finished the race. If I said “Bob did not persevere in his boat building project.” Most people would understand that to mean that Bob quit building his boat some time before it was completed.

So by our common understanding of the words “Perseverance of the Saints” means that the Saints will persevere. The Saints will not quit until the reach the finish line. The Saints will not quit before the work is finished. Now for the tricky theological part ... what is it that the Saints will persevere until? The Saints will persevere in the faith until they are glorified.

That is the meaning of “Perseverance of the Saints”.

Can you think of any verses that might suggest that the Saints will not fall away, but will finish the race of faith?

 

[JLB]

I am SO TIRED of being told that we Reformed just make it all up,

I can relate.

I get tired of posting scripture and have people tell me I’m a Pharisee or I am to dense to understand the scriptures I’m posting.



JLB

 

[JLB]

There are many things that scripture teaches that are often presented in different ways using different words and phrases that all mean the same essential truth.

My point is, why not call the things mentioned in scripture, what scripture calls them.


That’s why I started the section called:

Defining and Understanding Biblical Words and Terms.


Why argue and waste time discussing words and phrases not found in scripture.


What is the purpose of creating words that are not found in scripture to build a foundation of your Theology on?


Of course I’m still trying to figure out why people call themselves Calvinist.


I thought it was because they adopted the teachings of John Calvin.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Can we do one at a time?

That might be a good idea.


Start a thread about a certain topic and uses one or two scriptures that make your point and discuss that one scripture or point.



JLB

 

[JLB]

OK. That makes more sense than suggesting we need another topic on the exact same subject.

Ok. I didn’t know Perseverance of the saints = Eternal Security


I thought Eternal Security = OSAS


I thought perseverance of the saints was something the saints had to do.


It would seem so much more solid to have a scripture with the word perseverance in it, so we all understand what it means to persevere.


I looked it up and it seems to mean patience.






JLB

 

[atpollard]

I know this, Jesus Christ expects us to believe and teach His Doctrine.

Are you familiar with the quote from Augustine

‘GIVE WHAT YOU COMMAND, AND COMMAND WHAT YOU WILL’​

It made its way into the official Catholic Prayer Book (for the Fourth Sunday after Easter) as:

O ALMIGHTY God, who alone canst order the unruly wills and affections of sinful men: Grant unto thy people, that they may love the thing which thou commandest, and desire that which thou dost promise; that so, among the sundry and manifold changes of the world, our hearts may surely there be fixed, where true joys are to be found; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.​

We Reformed believe in obeying the law as well, but we see God as having a thumb on the scale to help us do what God desires. That whole “new heart” and “new mind” and “born of the Spirit” thing at work in us.

 

[atpollard]

Of course I’m still trying to figure out why people call themselves Calvinist.

Those d@mn Lutherans were far more numerous and stuck us with the name in the 1500’s as an insult. They said that we were not following Scripture, we were just following the man made teachings of John Calvin ... so we are not Christians, we are “Calvinists”. (See how long that insult has been thrown in our face because we rejected the Catholic teachings that were accept by Martin Luther but not found in Scripture.)

Over the centuries, the name stuck to the teaching (because Lutherans and Catholics were more numerous for most of that time). Some Reformed individuals came to embrace the term as it lost its “insult” character and just became descriptive of the 5 points called TULIP. Other Reformed individuals still object to the term, not because it is an insult, but because it is very inaccurate. It would be like calling the United States “Jefferson” because Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence and treating it as if Jefferson founded the nation all by himself. John Calvin was only one of many influential men that rejected both Catholic and Lutheran teachings and went back to the Bible to work out what it taught for themselves ... not as individuals, but as a group that read the original languages and exchanged ideas about what God said and what it meant as they translated the Bible into the language that the local people could read.

[shrug]
So that is the bizarre story of why “Calvinism” is not the teachings of John Calvin and why some are ok with the name and other’s take offense.

 

[atpollard]

I get tired of posting scripture and have people tell me I’m a Pharisee or I am to dense to understand the scriptures I’m posting.

I have seen both from other “Non-Free Will” types and you have my sympathy. As a Baptist I also cringe when some “Baptist” church makes the news for disrupting the funeral of a soldier with a protest. I can’t control idiots that share one or two beliefs in common with me.

For the record, I do not believe that you are a Pharisee (frankly, you don’t work nearly hard enough ... a real Pharisee would have memorized the entire Bible by age 12) although I can understand how someone could reach that false conclusion. You so strongly emphasize obedience or loose salvation that it is a short misstep to saved by obedience.

As far as understanding scriptures ... the reality is that different people will always read the same scripture and see different things. You and I do ALL THE TIME. I like the advice from the Moravian Church:

In essentials unity. In non-essentials liberty. In all things charity.

In other words, it is one thing to fight over whether Jesus was really God or if he really rose from the dead ... those are essential to salvation. Anything that is not ESSENTIAL to salvation (like baptizing babies or do people still speak in tongues) we should give other Christians the liberty to follow their conscience. In all things charity means that even when we disagree on the meaning of a verse, we should try to remain respectful (I struggle with that) and we should assume that people mean what they say and understand what we say unless there is a very strong reason to think that there has been a misunderstanding.

Assuming that you do not understand a verse you quoted is not “charity”.

 

[JLB]

Are you familiar with the quote from Augustine

‘GIVE WHAT YOU COMMAND, AND COMMAND WHAT YOU WILL’

No. I haven’t studied his writings.



JLB

 

[JLB]

That whole “new heart” and “new mind” and “born of the Spirit” thing at work in us.

Yes He has written His laws and commandments in our heart and mind.

He has given us His Spirit, to empower us to walk according to the desires of the Spirit, rather than the desires of our flesh.

We have the same Spirit Jesus and His Apostles have, to walk as Jesus walked.


The question is; am I obeying, being led, in which I’m following Him in these things of righteousness.

Only the righteous will inherit the kingdom of God.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7

• He who practices righteousness is righteous.

Born again Christians who have the Holy Spirit, yet do not practice righteousness, but practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

• Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul solemnly warms these brothers and sisters at Ephesus, not to be partakers of God’s wrath with the sons of disobedience.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You so strongly emphasize obedience or loose salvation that it is a short misstep to saved by obedience.

If He is tipping the scale in your favor, I would think it would be easy to obey Him.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


I just can’t ignore scriptures like this...

• He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Personally I choose to embrace these truths, and not allow my mind to explain them away or ignore them. I think this leads to self deception and blindness.


I would rather allow these truths to renew my mind, and allow the fear of the Lord to grip my heart to be an ally against the deception of sin, and the desires of the flesh.


The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life,
To turn one away from the snares of death.
Proverbs 14:27

• The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life

JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Sorry, I don't usually do this......... But, look at me! Look at me! My post got ignored by everyone but wondering.

I agree with atpollard with the saints not being snatched out of his hand. John 10:29 "My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

Who is one of the saints that aren't being snatched? The people whose hearts are good
Luke 8:15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

There is even the word persevering in there. We do persevere when are hearts are good. I bet you could even look up the Greek roots and Hebrew roots and all the roots in this scripture and it would show "we do persevere, no not persevering".

What I've been trying to promote, is that we shouldn't worry about the saints not persevering........if you are a saint...........you hear his voice and put his words into action. His words are not for those who don't take it serious, they are the lamp to our feet Psalm 119:105
John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

 

[GodsGrace]

You say you want to talk.
You say that I don’t want to talk with you.

Every post you make to me includes a personal insult.
Why on earth would I want to return for more of your personal attacks?

Talk to the hand and try to figure out WHY they might have believed in vain on your own. God will open your eyes or he will not. Either way, you are not my problem.

I'm happy not to be your problem.
I never knew I was a problem....


Could you please show me the post where I PERSONALLY insulted you?

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

You started this thread on PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS.
That is the same thing as ETERNAL SECURITY.

Almost,,,but not quite.

Let's take a look:


1. Perseverance of the Saints
God choose the person He wishes to save, for whatever reason.
That person will persevere in the will of God until the end of his life.
Why? Because God will make that person want what God wants him to want. This is compatible free will - which, in effect, is NO FREE WILL at all. IOW,,, God forces the person to be saved till the end.


2. Eternal Security
A person receives Jesus and become a Christian and a disciple of Jesus. He lives a Godly life and is aware that he could fall away from his faith and be right back at the beginning....with no faith and no salvation.


3. OSAS
A person receives Jesus and becomes a Christian - But...whatever he does, or says, or how he behaves or what he believes, from that time on...he will always be saved (no matter what).


So there you have it.
We're speaking about perseverance of the saints here.
Some of the other two MIGHT overlap,,,it's inevitable.

Please start a thread on OSAS or Eternal Security if you wish.