The Biblical ONENESS of God

[Highway54]

You can believe what you want, but I have given a few arguments which prove very difficult for your position. Are you not even going to try and address them?

No need sir, the Bible is clear on it. Jesus was in fact begotten, and the first and only creation made exclusively by Jehovah.

I understand why you feel that way, but I believe he was created, and it doesn't open the way for any contradictions that way, as the Bible does not contradict itself, as you would agree.

I think it is really another issue that concerns you moreso, and that is who is God? Since most people try to deify Jesus, they do not believe he can have a beginning but try to justify it.

 

[Free]

No need sir, the Bible is clear on it. Jesus was in fact begotten, and the first and only creation made exclusively by Jehovah.

I understand why you feel that way, but I believe he was created, and it doesn't open the way for any contradictions that way, as the Bible does not contradict itself, as you would agree.

I think it is really another issue that concerns you moreso, and that is who is God? Since most people try to deify Jesus, they do not believe he can have a beginning but try to justify it.

You claim your position is correct, yet you don’t even try to respond to my points which show serious problems with it. Why is that?

 

[Gregg T]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the exchanges on this topic.

I'm a monotheist, reject modalism and oneness, while recognizing distinctions between YHWH Jesus Christ and GOD His Father. I'm uncomfortable with the terms trinity and persons and constituent parts when used to describe God.

When God created us on His image, our being body and soul and spirit, perhaps He was indicating something of His own person.

 

[Free]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the exchanges on this topic.

I'm a monotheist, reject modalism and oneness, while recognizing distinctions between YHWH Jesus Christ and GOD His Father. I'm uncomfortable with the terms trinity and persons and constituent parts when used to describe God.

Yes, we do need to be careful with the language we use when trying to make sense of God's revelation of himself to us. He has revealed certain things we can know but we still cannot fully comprehend him and his existence. I prefer the use of Trinity to differentiate from Modalism, Oneness, Arianism, tritheism, or the idea of him being tripartite. "Persons" is difficult, as it does bring to mind separate individuals, but in English is about as close as we can get, in my opinion.

This is definitely a very complex topic with many nuances.

When God created us on His image, our being body and soul and spirit, perhaps He was indicating something of His own person.

I would disagree about the body being in his image and add that there are many other things as well, such as logic, language, love, and being creators. But, yes, I would agree that all these things certainly indicate something of his own person.

 

[Gregg T]

Yes, we do need to be careful with the language we use when trying to make sense of God's revelation of himself to us. He has revealed certain things we can know but we still cannot fully comprehend him and his existence. I prefer the use of Trinity to differentiate from Modalism, Oneness, Arianism, tritheism, or the idea of him being tripartite. "Persons" is difficult, as it does bring to mind separate individuals, but in English is about as close as we can get, in my opinion.

This is definitely a very complex topic with many nuances.


I would disagree about the body being in his image and add that there are many other things as well, such as logic, language, love, and being creators. But, yes, I would agree that all these things certainly indicate something of his own person.

I think we are in agreement. Regarding our body, I don't think Jesus was flesh and blood or a man in any way from before eternity as He created those things. But that He could have been corporeal in some aspect outside of these created dimensions that we know. It's just a thought but nothing I would entertain as a belief.

 

[Free]

I think we are in agreement. Regarding our body, I don't think Jesus was flesh and blood or a man in any way from before eternity as He created those things. But that He could have been corporeal in some aspect outside of these created dimensions that we know. It's just a thought but nothing I would entertain as a belief.

I think it is unlikely, but I'll grant that it is an interesting thought and entirely within the realm of possibility.

 

[Gregg T]

The Bible teaches Oneness from cover to cover.

Nowhere does it teach a trinity.

I see the Bible teaching God is One. What do you think about this verse, "and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, 'You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.' " (Luke 3:22)

 

[Highway54]

You claim your position is correct, yet you don’t even try to respond to my points which show serious problems with it. Why is that?

My apologies Free, it is likely because I prejudged you as not caring. Many people choose to simply argue without intent of learning. So again I apologize and will be glad to discuss this important topic. I will say that my attention span and reading capabilities are weak. So please lets look at your information in stages. Keeping it simple give me your point and your scriptural evidence.

 

[Randy]

The only word you're banking on there is the word 'and'.

That word in the original Greek can mean 'indeed.'

Your prized verse is left wanting.

In the original Greek it is translated "Grace and peace to you from God our Father indeed the Lord Jesus Christ."

And is english - I don't know ancient Greek
I see what others state in that regard.
But its not just one verse that speaks of God and His Christ or the Father and Son is it? If you can read all that testimony and still state they are not two persons then any of these discussions are fruitless.

Kai

Greek Concordance: καὶ (kai) -- 9079 Occurrences

 

[Alfred Persson]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the exchanges on this topic.

I'm a monotheist, reject modalism and oneness, while recognizing distinctions between YHWH Jesus Christ and GOD His Father. I'm uncomfortable with the terms trinity and persons and constituent parts when used to describe God.

When God created us on His image, our being body and soul and spirit, perhaps He was indicating something of His own person.

Like God seeing Himself in a mirror, a reflex. One God in three Persons (sorry), One Human Person in three substances.

"Person" distinguishes from "substance". A necessary distinction.

Something to ponder. Christ is the "Word" of God, He "verbalizes" God's thought, makes it "concrete reality", or as Paul says it:

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist (4921 συνίστημι sunistemi). (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)

He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together. (Col. 1:17 CSB)


4921 συνιστάω (συνίστημι) sunistao {soon-is-tah'-o} or (strengthened) συνιστανω sunistano {soon-is-tan'-o} or sunistemi {soon-is'-tay-mee}

Meaning: 1) to place together, to set in the same place,to bring or band together 1a) to stand with (or near) 2) to set one with another 2a) by way of presenting or introducing him 2b) to comprehend 3) to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing 3a) to show, prove, establish, exhibit 4) to put together, unite parts into one whole 4a) to be composed of, consist.


27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, `For we are also His offspring.' (Acts 17:27-28 NKJ)

In God the Son we have our being. That is mind blowing:

By the word of Yahweh, the heavens were made, and, by the spirit of his mouth, all their host: (Ps. 33:6 ROT)

 

[theWind]

If you can read all that testimony and still state they are not two persons then any of these discussions are fruitless.

Just like all those who believe in a Biblical concept without taking the entirety of Scripture into account, you toss in the trash all of the Scripture that presents, and proves, that God is one individual and expect me to ONLY consider the portions that YOU allow - and then ask me what my assessment is.

That's just not how it works.

You are among a great number who do not understand the Bible because your knowledge of it is very lacking. You have either been taught only by the corrupt churches or you have never studied the entire Bible repeatedly.

There are masses of Scripture that prove God is one. Study Isaiah chapters 40-48 a few times and make note of all the statements by God the Father that declare Him to BE all that Jesus is believed to be. All of those chapters cannot exist in Scripture if God and Jesus are two separate individuals. Yet they DO exist, and they MUST be taken into account before someone can fully understand God's nature.

It is very easy to consider all the verses you are referring to and still come away with the understanding that God is ONE individual when you are clear on what the full weight of Scripture teaches about God Almighty.

Jesus IS God Almighty. He is ONE. There is NO trinity, NOR twinnity. (My term.)

God the Father does not share His glory with ANY other.
Isaiah 42:8

He is solely sovereign and ALL glory belongs to HIM.

 

[Free]

Just like all those who believe in a Biblical concept without taking the entirety of Scripture into account, you toss in the trash all of the Scripture that presents, and proves, that God is one individual and expect me to ONLY consider the portions that YOU allow - and then ask me what my assessment is.

That's just not how it works.

You are among a great number who do not understand the Bible because your knowledge of it is very lacking. You have either been taught only by the corrupt churches or you have never studied the entire Bible repeatedly.

These arguments are completely unnecessary and pointless personal attacks. Anyone could easily say that about you and it gets us nowhere. Please don't state them again.

There are masses of Scripture that prove God is one.

And, yet, you haven't provided a single one. You have provided a number of them which say there is only one God, but the doctrine of the Trinity fully affirms monotheism.

Study Isaiah chapters 40-48 a few times and make note of all the statements by God the Father that declare Him to BE all that Jesus is believed to be. All of those chapters cannot exist in Scripture if God and Jesus are two separate individuals. Yet they DO exist, and they MUST be taken into account before someone can fully understand God's nature.

That's fallaciously begging the question since you're presuming that YHWH is only God the Father when those verses make no such distinction; they say nothing about the nature of God. You are again conflating monotheism with the self-existent nature of God.

Jesus IS God Almighty. He is ONE. There is NO trinity, NOR twinnity. (My term.)

That's a mocking term. Come up with something better, like "binity."

God the Father does not share His glory with ANY other.

Isaiah 42:8

He is solely sovereign and ALL glory belongs to HIM.

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

Who did Jesus share glory with and in whose presence was he, and when?

 

[JLB]

The Bible plainly makes the case that God is ONE individual being/person/identity from Genesis to Revelation.

Christ is that person.

Oneness is intentionally misrepresented constantly by trinitarians as it is a major threat to the integrity of their unbiblical doctrine. Contrary to trinitarians' claim that Oneness is modalism,

Oneness theology affirms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as simultaneous, not sequential, manifestations of God.​

https://mphbooks.com/oneness-view-jesus-christ/

Some theologians maintain that in modalism God is essentially unknowable because God’s essence is hidden behind three “masks.” The main thrust of Oneness theology is exactly the opposite; we can truly know God’s character, holiness, love, and power in Jesus Christ.

The one true God is not hidden but manifested, for as 2 Cor 4:6 teaches, the glory of God is revealed in the face of Jesus Christ.

If the True teachings of Oneness were properly explained in every single trinitarian church as a comparison to the trinity teachings, masses of Christians would embrace Oneness overnight. They are not explained, they are never explained, and they are intentionally misrepresented when they are ever referred to because the Truth of Biblical Oneness would find its way to the hearts and minds of those truly seeking God all over the world if they were.

The Bible teaches Oneness from cover to cover.

Nowhere does it teach a trinity.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

Oneness says this one is three.

The scripture says these three are one.


One what?


One in unified Family?
One in unified Spirit?
One in unified God?




JLB

 

[JLB]

There are masses of Scripture that prove God is one.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;… Genesis 1:26


The same God (Elohim) that created the heavens and the earth, says Let Us make…


Man is also three, spirit, soul and body, yet he is one man.



JLB

 

[donadams]

Condemned as heresy, Modalism is the belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three different modes of God, as opposed to a Trinitarian view of three distinct persons within the Godhead.

Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]


Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!

 

[justbyfaith]

Free:

I said the following to you in a PM and I think that I am not in violation of ToS 1.14 if I share only what I said and not what you said back to me; because I would not be divulging the whole of the conversation but would be repeating in public only what I said to you before.

I would not be betraying your words to other people but would only be repeating in public the argument that I shared with you in private.

Otherwise, it is not expedient to argue doctrine in private because then the conclusions that are made can never be made public.

Also, you would be wasting your arguments on one person because you can never bring those same arguments out in the open by sharing them in a thread.

 

[justbyfaith]

You don't know the meaning of the word "one".

Jas 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

That is in the New Testament; which was translated from Greek.

The Greek word for "one" does not give you the luxury of believing that it is speaking of a plurality in unity.

It is not a carry-over of "echad"

And if it is, then consider this.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

"one" being a carry-over of "echad" would here be saying that the Father is a compound unity.

I rest my case.
.
.
.
Free,

What do you think "one" is in 1 Corinthians 8:6?

A compound unity or an absolute unity?
.
.
.
2Co 12:16, But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

If you say that it is a compound unity, then the Father is a compound unity and what I am saying of Jesus and the Holy Ghost also being the Father is true.

If you say that it is an absolute unity, then the word also refers to God in the verse (not just the Father) and therefore you would be saying that God is an absolute unity.

You're damned if you do; and you're damned if you don't!

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

But if I were you, I would go with absolute unity; because the Father is a singular Person.

Nevertheless if you are going to stay Trinitarian, you need for it to be a compound unity; otherwise God is an absolute unity and cannot be three-in-one.

 

[justbyfaith]

Don't cop out by saying that "one" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is neither a compound unity nor an absolute unity.

It is either one or the other.

CHOOSE.

 

[donadams]

The Bible plainly makes the case that God is ONE individual being/person/identity from Genesis to Revelation.

Christ is that person.

Oneness is intentionally misrepresented constantly by trinitarians as it is a major threat to the integrity of their unbiblical doctrine. Contrary to trinitarians' claim that Oneness is modalism,

Oneness theology affirms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as simultaneous, not sequential, manifestations of God.​

https://mphbooks.com/oneness-view-jesus-christ/

Some theologians maintain that in modalism God is essentially unknowable because God’s essence is hidden behind three “masks.” The main thrust of Oneness theology is exactly the opposite; we can truly know God’s character, holiness, love, and power in Jesus Christ.

The one true God is not hidden but manifested, for as 2 Cor 4:6 teaches, the glory of God is revealed in the face of Jesus Christ.

If the True teachings of Oneness were properly explained in every single trinitarian church as a comparison to the trinity teachings, masses of Christians would embrace Oneness overnight. They are not explained, they are never explained, and they are intentionally misrepresented when they are ever referred to because the Truth of Biblical Oneness would find its way to the hearts and minds of those truly seeking God all over the world if they were.

The Bible teaches Oneness from cover to cover.

Nowhere does it teach a trinity.

Really?

Matt 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. (Glory of God!)

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Cloud represents the spirit
The voice of the father about Christ the son

1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[justbyfaith]

person.