The Catholic Church.

[WIP]

Hi Adoration
You're new here.
You could comment if it's done with love and respect. I am also a former catholic, but I see value in the CC.
Neither teaching is perfect, each has it's good and bad points.
Maybe speaking about the pros and cons of each could help to understand each other better?

I too was raised in the Catholic tradition. I was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic church, served as altar boy for many years, sang in our church choir, attended regular daily mass which is something most don't do, and went to Catholic school through the 6th grade.

The problem that I see is that both sides tend to dig in their heels so deeply they close their ears to listening to each other but instead spend more effort trying to one-up the other. It becomes more of a debate than a discussion where teaching and learning can come about.

 

[WIP]

I am a former Catholic of many years... and again... I apologize for commenting on this thread. This is not about winning... It is about sound biblical doctrine... but I will in future refrain from commenting on the threads about Catholicism.

No need for the apology. We welcome your input. Here in the Theology forum it can be a little challenging, as it should be. This is one of our few debate forums so when one posts, one can expect that there will be replies that either invoke serious thought or perhaps even a desire to rebut. It's all good as long as we remain polite and respectful with one another.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I have read some of the Apocrypha and parts I believe and other parts I do not. I think adding it to the Bible would have caused a greater scale of division. I'm not saying they are not worth reading, especially within the history parts of the Maccabee's,

Agreed, not that I've read the Apocrypha, which is a strong indication of the credibility I assign to it.

We are not infallible, but the word of God is in what He gave to the Prophets and Apostles to write.

Agreed, and that is the reason for my original post ... that the R.C.s and protestants don't agreed on what is the source(s) of the Word of God and since they work from different foundations of knowledge, they will never agree.

 

[Adoration]

The problem that I see is that both sides tend to dig in their heels so deeply they close their ears to listening to each other but instead spend more effort trying to one-up the other. It becomes more of a debate than a discussion where teaching and learning can come about.

This is a discussion I am not able to have... I ex-communicated myself from the Catholic Church 2 days after my mother died in 2007... I made an appointment with the priest who resided over her funeral... and told him I wanted his blessing to NEVER have to step in the church again... He was gracious and told me I was FREE to leave...(which was all simply symbolic as he had no power to do anything). This institution is responsible for the destruction of my family...and so when I apologized for posting in here... I meant it... I AM sorry I posted....I am not one who has anything good to say about CATHOLICISM... In real life... I keep my thoughts to myself.
Therefore since I am very new here... I will honour the fact that these topics are allowed... and I will stay out of them.

 

[Adoration]

To the above post of mine... I would like to add this...

I have lived where I am at for 6 years... My landlords are Catholic... we live on the same property and I LOVE THEM to pieces... .NO issues... I absolutely respect everyone's right to believe as they do... the problem with forums is that issues get discussed without respect... and that is what has impressed me so deeply with this forum site... the demand for RESPECT... This is truly how we work things out... and I am all on-board for a site that shows the LOVE and COMPASSION of Christ.

Doctrines of Christianity are a BEE in my bonnet... and so there are certain topics that I have learned I am unable to discuss/are not prudent for me to discuss.

In my introduction... I stated I was a GRACE gal... I believe I am secure in my salvation. It took 20 years to get to this place... therefore I guard my heart and my faith with everything I have.

I will never understand why Catholicism and Protestantism are EXPECTED to meet in the middle.... when one has WALKED out of and away from the other... for very serious reasons. This to me is the problem. There seems to be an expectation that the two can meet and come to agreement. I do not feel this is possible.

Perhaps where the unity CAN come in is in serving our communities... and loving our neighbours... and not rubbing in each other's faces that one is the TRUE CHURCH... Right off the bat.. this statement makes all other arguments futile.

Thank you for allowing me to have my say here.... AGAIN... I really regret having commented on this thread... but I felt the need to explain myself a bit.

I do not think I am a better CHRISTIAN than any one else... My life is a work in progress.

 

[WIP]

I will never understand why Catholicism and Protestantism are EXPECTED to meet in the middle

Actually, nobody expects Catholicism and Protestantism to meet in the middle. What we expect is to meet with Christ. The problem is we are fallible human beings and we have an innate tendency to prefer to be our own gods and not put ALL our faith, trust, and love in the One Eternal God and so the rebellion that started with Adam and Eve continues to this day.

 

[Adoration]

Actually, nobody expects Catholicism and Protestantism to meet in the middle. What we expect is to meet with Christ. The problem is we are fallible human beings and we have an innate tendency to prefer to be our own gods and not put ALL our faith, trust, and love in the One Eternal God and so the rebellion that started with Adam and Eve continues to this day.

I have said my peace... I am of the mindset that topic of Catholicism cannot be fruitfully discussed with those who are NOT Catholic. However... the topics of servitude and fruits of the spirit can certainly be shared with hope for unity.

 

[jaybo]

I too was raised in the Catholic tradition. I was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic church, served as altar boy for many years, sang in our church choir, attended regular daily mass which is something most don't do, and went to Catholic school through the 6th grade.

The problem that I see is that both sides tend to dig in their heels so deeply they close their ears to listening to each other but instead spend more effort trying to one-up the other. It becomes more of a debate than a discussion where teaching and learning can come about.

Kinda' reminds me of Paul's epistles...

 

[jaybo]

I have said my peace... I am of the mindset that topic of Catholicism cannot be fruitfully discussed with those who are NOT Catholic. However... the topics of servitude and fruits of the spirit can certainly be shared with hope for unity.

I find this very strange. WHY can't the topic of Catholicism be "fruitfully discussed" with non-Catholics? Is it a cult, unable to be understood by those on the outside?

 

[Adoration]

I find this very strange. WHY can't the topic of Catholicism be "fruitfully discussed" with non-Catholics? Is it a cult, unable to be understood by those on the outside?

I am trying very hard to bow out gracefully from this conversation... so I will not be able to answer your question. Sorry about that.

 

[GodsGrace]

I find this very strange. WHY can't the topic of Catholicism be "fruitfully discussed" with non-Catholics? Is it a cult, unable to be understood by those on the outside?

We Are discussing it.
Seems the other member has some personal feelings about the CC,,,thus discussion becomes difficult.

 

[Adoration]

Seems the other member has some personal feelings about the CC,,,thus discussion becomes difficult.

For me... the topic of Catholicism... is very difficult to discuss... it was my life for a great many years... and I have stepped away... so yeah... I have personal feelings about the doctrine of the Catholic church... I do not have any issues with CATHOLICS... those who practice this religion...
However...out of respect.... I never discuss religion with these people... Any Catholic I know is one I can dine with... talk with about things freely with regards to life's hardships and anything that does not pertain to the RULES of the religion. In real life it is quite easy to NOT discuss things that will divide... but in the world of forums... this is the purpose... TO DISCUSS.... therefore it is a challenge to find the way to do this properly.... Anyways... I do hope that something FRUITFUL can come of this discussion. Bless you all.

 

[for_his_glory]

To the above post of mine... I would like to add this...

I have lived where I am at for 6 years... My landlords are Catholic... we live on the same property and I LOVE THEM to pieces... .NO issues... I absolutely respect everyone's right to believe as they do... the problem with forums is that issues get discussed without respect... and that is what has impressed me so deeply with this forum site... the demand for RESPECT... This is truly how we work things out... and I am all on-board for a site that shows the LOVE and COMPASSION of Christ.

Doctrines of Christianity are a BEE in my bonnet... and so there are certain topics that I have learned I am unable to discuss/are not prudent for me to discuss.

In my introduction... I stated I was a GRACE gal... I believe I am secure in my salvation. It took 20 years to get to this place... therefore I guard my heart and my faith with everything I have.

I will never understand why Catholicism and Protestantism are EXPECTED to meet in the middle.... when one has WALKED out of and away from the other... for very serious reasons. This to me is the problem. There seems to be an expectation that the two can meet and come to agreement. I do not feel this is possible.

Perhaps where the unity CAN come in is in serving our communities... and loving our neighbours... and not rubbing in each other's faces that one is the TRUE CHURCH... Right off the bat.. this statement makes all other arguments futile.

Thank you for allowing me to have my say here.... AGAIN... I really regret having commented on this thread... but I felt the need to explain myself a bit.

I do not think I am a better CHRISTIAN than any one else... My life is a work in progress.

You might have said more than you realize in all truths as God is not about a persons religious choice, but is about a personal relationship between you and His Son Christ Jesus. Religion can not save us, but only by the grace of God through faith that is Christ Jesus as we believe in Him and what He has already taught us.

 

[jaybo]

The main problem that I have with Catholicism is their real separation from the entire body of Christ. To my Catholic friends, if you're not a Catholic then you're not really one of God's people. I saw this growing up as a Jew. We were a separate and superior people. I see the same attitude in Catholics. There are other aspects of Catholicism that I want to discuss, but would like to start here.

 

[Fastfredy0]

if you're not a Catholic then you're not really one of God's people.

This is an appropriate stance given their doctrine. Similarly, everyone that believes Christ is God is going to hell according to the doctrine of Muslims. If their doctrine is correct in this area, their verdict is too. If only R.C.s go to heaven as their doctrine IMO states, then their blessing is far, far superior to mine. The ultimate "I TOLD YOU SO". More power to them is they proclaim what they believe is TRUTH.

Aside: What is so interesting is that the over whelming majority of people stay with the religious beliefs they were first presented with ... seems to be another 'force' determining ones salvation as the result is somewhat predictable ... but I digress.

 

[Barbarian]

I seem to recall reading that the RCC holds that the "separate brethren" are all in varying degrees of error, from the denominational level on down to the individual believer. hence, the RCC still believes itself to be -- and I could be mistaken, of course -- the true Church, the one staying closest to The Good News, etc.

...The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood...
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

 

[Barbarian]

The main problem that I have with Catholicism is their real separation from the entire body of Christ. To my Catholic friends, if you're not a Catholic then you're not really one of God's people.

If they think so, they are at odds with the Catholic Church. See above. Every denomination thinks that they have it right in all respects, and that other denominations are wrong to various degrees. But if one attempts to remove other denominations from God, one is merely removing one's self from God.

 

[GodsGrace]

...The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood...
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

The above idea was updated and became part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in 1992, which was requested by Pope John Paul.

CCC 1271
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1992

 

[GodsGrace]

The main problem that I have with Catholicism is their real separation from the entire body of Christ. To my Catholic friends, if you're not a Catholic then you're not really one of God's people. I saw this growing up as a Jew. We were a separate and superior people. I see the same attitude in Catholics. There are other aspects of Catholicism that I want to discuss, but would like to start here.

Hi Jaybo...
Just saw this.
Catholics believe Protestants could be saved and be part of God's people, but that they don't have the truth and are being mislead and many may even be going to be separated from God because they believe in "cheap grace".

We also have to realize that many don't know what the CC really teaches and just listen to hearsay.

See my post no. 398 in which Barbarian and I both post the teaching of the CC regarding other denominations....
I have to say that whether or not Catholics know this is irrelevant since many do not really know the teachings of their own church.

This MIGHT make some feel superior...but that's pride and pride is the cause of many sins.
I like to keep my eyes on Jesus and not on other Christians.

If you care to discuss other aspects of Catholicism feel free to do so....
I'll probably know the answer (or Barbarian can help...he knows how to find out about everything!).

 

[GodsGrace]

This is an appropriate stance given their doctrine. Similarly, everyone that believes Christ is God is going to hell according to the doctrine of Muslims. If their doctrine is correct in this area, their verdict is too. If only R.C.s go to heaven as their doctrine IMO states, then their blessing is far, far superior to mine. The ultimate "I TOLD YOU SO". More power to them is they proclaim what they believe is TRUTH.

Aside: What is so interesting is that the over whelming majority of people stay with the religious beliefs they were first presented with ... seems to be another 'force' determining ones salvation as the result is somewhat predictable ... but I digress.

View attachment 12349

The doctrine of the Catholic Church is NOT that only they are going to heaven.

If you want to know the teaching of the CC, please see my post no. 398 in which both Barbarian and I post the authoratative teaching of the CC.

Here's the Ordo Salutis of the CC:

1. A baby is baptized to remove original sin (which was invented by one of your heroes, Augustine)....
2. He receives the Holy Spirit - Who remains asleep in the baby until such time as the grown child wishes to become a Christian person.
3. A person must know Christ and be reborn in order to be saved...this is known as Justification and immediately after, Sanctification.

That's it.

As to confession....after hundreds of years the church adopted what it now known as private, auricular confession.
What the CC teaches as a mortal sin, which would cause one to forfeit their salvation, is exactly the same as what would cause a Protestant to become
detached from God and be in danger of loss of salvation. For instance, murder.

Of course, just as in Protestantism, one would ask forgiveness and be forgiven - except we would go directly to God and they also need to be forgiven
by their church and so they go to a priest in order to be back on good terms with their church AND God.