The CURSE OF THE LAW

[Mitspa]

...sin only dies when we die to the law

Anyone who is in Christ has already died to the law (our 'work' now is to act out what we know to be true).

That's why it's okay to know what is condemned as sin by reading the law. The law doesn't have the authority over the believer you are giving it.

Reading the law only acts as a veil to the truth of Christ's righteousness when you rely on the law, as the Jews do to this day, for righteousness.

Stop putting believers back under the authority of the law! Stop saying to them what God has said is no longer true for those who belong to him!

...that no man can look to the written code and overcome sin.

Right. He becomes conscious of sin when he knows what the law says about sin.

Yes and the commandment produces evil desires in the flesh.
For the strength of sin is the law.

So it sounds like you are trying to have it both ways?
That we are dead to sin and the law, but yet we must keep the written code? Or are you saying that the flesh has no more power over the believer? If so then most of Pauls writtings are just vain! Of course the flesh is still the active element of sin, as long as one looks to the written code.

Thats Pauls point! To be set free from sin, one must be set free from the written code and its judgment against the flesh.

Therefore I have made the point over and over that the law CANNOT make a charge of sin against those who are justified by Christ, nor can it justifiy in any way. It stands as a witness to Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

and sorry francis, you are just ignoring the clear and evident point of those scriptures. The gentile can no more keep the written code of the law, than the jew. This is the point of those scriptures and a point Paul makes throughout his epistles.

 

[francisdesales]

and sorry francis, you are just ignoring the clear and evident point of those scriptures. The gentile can no more keep the written code of the law, than the jew. This is the point of those scriptures and a point Paul makes throughout his epistles.

Of course people can keep the Law!!! You can state that all you want, but the Bible disagrees with you. Start with explaining Luke 1:5-6, which you keep ignoring. Or tell me why Abraham, Job, David, Noah and Enoch were righteous, if according to you, NO ONE was righteous???

Maybe you ignore it because you don't think it is part of the Inspired Word of God??? Maybe we need to explore the deeper question, here, Mitspa, and why you find it necessary to ignore everything BUT how you INTERPRET Paul? Why are you ignoring what God has to say on the subject?

The just live by faith. Paul himself cites that verse from the Habakkuk... HE KNOWS PEOPLE ARE JUST BY FAITH - NOT THE LAW. Even Habakkuk knows this 500 years before Paul was even born!!!

Perhaps you are confused into thinking I am speaking of keeping the written code perfectly? I am not. Gentiles were entering into eternal life, do you think the "law written on their hearts" was the Mosaic Law??? :p

WERE THEY KEEPING THE MOSAIC LAW PERFECTLY, MITSPA???

Read Romans 2 carefully. Then the end of Romans 3 again. Paul makes it clear that pagans who are found pleasing to God - by faith - are entering the Kingdom, while Jews WITH THE MOSAIC LAW are not! Is God a God of the Gentiles, too? Of course. WHY would God keep out the Gentiles who were found pleasing to God? God is not a God of the Jews only... Works of the Mosaic Law is useless for being made righteous.

 

[childeye]

Are you sure? because by the letter, circumcision is a very different thing that by the Spirit?

.....he'll find that it is not in violation of any jot or tittle of God's law as intended Spiritually.

Am I then putting forth that all of us here are to also be circumcised when I say LAW(1) is still valid - yes, but in its intended spiritual connotation. Why did God institute circumcision in the OT - it was to be a foreshadow of spiritual things to come - namely, the spiritual circumcising of our hearts - not by the self, but by the Spirit. And this is valid today. Similarly with all the ceremonial laws of the OT - doesn't passover translate spiritually to our Good Friday and the festival of First Fruits to our Easter - and don't we mandate ourselves to observe our redemption from death by the smearing of the blood of Christ on the doorposts of our souls - and don't we observe the resurrection of the First Fruit which assures the rest of us in Christ that we'd too be gathered similarly in the final harvest?

So yes, I am sure that all the commandments of the OT are still valid in its spiritual connotation even today.

God's ways of teaching man has always followed a pattern -

1) He shows/commands things in the physical world as a foreshadow of spiritual things to come, so that fleshly man may perceive and comprehend according to his limited physical senses.

2) After such establishing of His truths in the physical model, God then regenerates fleshly man to be born anew in the spirit.

3) God now shows forth the actual spiritual reality, that of which man had so far seen only a physical foreshadow of - but is now able to grasp completely with his new spiritual senses.

4) God now lays again the very things He had instituted in point-1) in its intended spiritual connotation - and sets forth just this spiritual reality where the physical model is no longer required.

Since God performs this circumcision not by hands but the spiritual connotation, why do people think they sin willfully? How does one crucify his flesh with Christ?

 

[Deborah13]

well of course you did not quote the NEXT scripture Rom 7:8

Romans 7:8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Some good grace people understood this scripture in the past for as the old saying goes..."forbidden fruit" Used to describe how if one is told (especially used for children) there is something that they cannot have then that is just what they will desire for it is "forbidden fruit".
Or something they should not do, it is just what they desire to do.

We keep Jesus and His righteousness in our site, this is what we look at, not the law and this is what we will follow. For out of the heart of man comes the things he will believe and do.

 

[childeye]

well of course you did not quote the NEXT scripture Rom 7:8

Romans 7:8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Some good grace people understood this scripture in the past for as the old saying goes..."forbidden fruit" Used to describe how if one is told (especially used for children) there is something that they cannot have then that is just what they will desire for it is "forbidden fruit".
Or something they should not do, it is just what they desire to do.

We keep Jesus and His righteousness in our site, this is what we look at, not the law and this is what we will follow. For out of the heart of man comes the things he will believe and do.

The sorrow of vanity is the same sorrow that the virgin does not appreciate what a virgin is until she loses her virginity. Such is holiness and purity and innocence.

 

[Deborah13]

"28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:28,31 NIV)

I wanted to use your scripture reference, it's a good one to make my point I think.

I believe this is the faith that we are exhorted in more than one scripture to hold on to, the faith that we had in the beginning. It is the faith that turned to Jesus believing that He died for us and He rose from the dead as the first of many. We are so filled with hope and confidence in what He has done for us, we have no doubt. In this faith the law is upheld because our faith is totally in what He did at the cross and that there truly is nothing we could do to save ourselves. This is the faith we must hold on to for the strength to the end. This faith does not look at the law with any confidence but just at Christ, with all our confidence in what He has already done. It is He who has fulfilled the law and lives through us.
I know you will understand what I am saying, I don't think we are in disagreement.

 

[Deborah13]

not appreciate what a virgin is until she loses her virginity

Yes, this is so true.

 

[childeye]

not appreciate what a virgin is until she loses her virginity

Yes, this is so true.

Hence her ignorance is understandable to our Merciful and Loving Father Who foreknew that vanity would appear in the creation. And also Whom through His Foresight also had prepared a way for redemption, so that such innocence and purity would not be lost forever. Such is the Love which paid the price through torture and humiliation, so that sins may be forgiven because of our ignorance of who we were in Adam, and to come unto the knowledge of who we are in Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

and sorry francis, you are just ignoring the clear and evident point of those scriptures. The gentile can no more keep the written code of the law, than the jew. This is the point of those scriptures and a point Paul makes throughout his epistles.

Of course people can keep the Law!!! You can state that all you want, but the Bible disagrees with you. Start with explaining Luke 1:5-6, which you keep ignoring. Or tell me why Abraham, Job, David, Noah and Enoch were righteous, if according to you, NO ONE was righteous???

Maybe you ignore it because you don't think it is part of the Inspired Word of God??? Maybe we need to explore the deeper question, here, Mitspa, and why you find it necessary to ignore everything BUT how you INTERPRET Paul? Why are you ignoring what God has to say on the subject?

The just live by faith. Paul himself cites that verse from the Habakkuk... HE KNOWS PEOPLE ARE JUST BY FAITH - NOT THE LAW. Even Habakkuk knows this 500 years before Paul was even born!!!

Perhaps you are confused into thinking I am speaking of keeping the written code perfectly? I am not. Gentiles were entering into eternal life, do you think the "law written on their hearts" was the Mosaic Law??? :p

WERE THEY KEEPING THE MOSAIC LAW PERFECTLY, MITSPA???

Read Romans 2 carefully. Then the end of Romans 3 again. Paul makes it clear that pagans who are found pleasing to God - by faith - are entering the Kingdom, while Jews WITH THE MOSAIC LAW are not! Is God a God of the Gentiles, too? Of course. WHY would God keep out the Gentiles who were found pleasing to God? God is not a God of the Jews only... Works of the Mosaic Law is useless for being made righteous.

Sorry again francis, but I have explained Luke 1:5-6
These people where before the Cross, and they kept ALL THE LAW, including sacrifices for sin. The fact that the bible says they were righteous in Gods sight and blamless means nothing as it relates to the gospel. No more than Paul being "blameless" but accounted that righteousness as dung.

This scripture does not in any way challenge the Gospel and its declaration that none are righteous, no not one. For when the gospel came Gods judgment was annouced that NO ONE DARE, to attempt to be justified by the law.
For GOD RIGHTEOUSNESS is revealed from heaven, and no man dare to establish their own by the law.

Now over and over you and others, claim that one cannot be justified by the law. Have you now changed your postion?
Or are you just throwing up stuff angainst the truth to see if something will stick?

My point all alone has been that those of you who claim to keep the law, MUST KEEP ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW. now none of you are claiming that ALL THE LAW should be kept, but That is the biblical standard.

Of course you cannot keep this standard.

 

[Mitspa]

So Paul is saying that the "jew" cannot keep or be justifed by the law, but we gentiles can? Thats just error built upon more error.
For the is no difference, and Paul males this point very clear, that He is speaking to ALL as it relates to the law and its purpose.
Rom 3:20-23
THEREFORE BY THE DEEDS OF THE LAW THERE SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED.
FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JEW AND THE GENTILE.

funny how some attempt to ingore the clear and evident truth of scripture by saying "Paul was speaking to the jews"

Has anyone ever noticed the pattern of those who attempt to promote legalism and self-righteousness? They go from one issue to another, you answer one issue then they seem to take another scripture somewhere out of its context and meaning, to promote legalism. No I have answered every challenge to the gospel. Nor can any challenge the true gospel.
For instance to take the issue of these scriptures in Romans, and try to make it sound as if Paul is speaking to the jews only?Is so dishonest that one must wonder if some have any fear of God at all? No Paul makes this ISSUE OF THE LAW very clear, that He speaks to the whole world! AND ALL MEN WILL BE JUDGED BY HIS GOSPEL.

 

[Mitspa]

Gal 3:10-13
For as many as are under the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM"

This is the main subject of the book of Galatians. That those who had been freely justified by the grace of God, and given the free gift of righteousness. Had now turned back into the written code, and to attempts to justify themselves by parts of the law.
Pauls point was that if you try to keep any part of the written code, you are subject to keep it all. And in this effort to earn, what God only gives by faith, a man has turned from the blessing of Abraham unto the curse of the law.
Take notice that it is ALL THAT IS WRITTEN- EVERY JOT AND TITTLE!
So this is Pauls point from the begining of this epistle. If any man preach another gospel other than His Gospel, they are ANATHEMA
Those who teach the law and legalism are in fact "anathema" They are the "cursed" children of 2 Pet 2:14

2 Cor 3:12-15 Seeing we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not behold the end of that which is ABOLISHED.
But their MINDS WERE BLINDED, for even until this day the same vail remains at the reading of the OLD testament. WHICH IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
but even unto this day, when Moses is read the vail is upon their heart.

Deu 28:28-29 THE LORD SHALL SMITE THEE WITH MADNESS, AND BLINDNESS AND ASTONISHMENT OF HEART: AND THOU SHALT GROPE IN THE NOONDAY, AS THE BLIND GROPETH IN DARKNESS.

We see that those who cannot see that Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness. Are indeed cursed, and blind of mind and heart. Altough many claim to be children of the Day, they have no understanding of Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own righteousness, by the written code of the law.

Col 2:14-15 Having nailed the law to His Cross, Christ has disarmed satan? The name satan means ACCUSER.
satan hold believers in bondage to the weakness of their flesh and sin by deceiving them into looking to the law, (the strength of sin)

satans greatest weapon against the church is the law of moses, (the written code)

All his false ministers come as preachers of righteousness, promoting the law and works of the flesh.

Now none of them are so foolish as to try and teach the true standard of the law, but they bring in parts. For satan knows that if any man attempts to justified himself by any work of the law, satan has control of that persons mind and heart.
2 Cor 4:4

how wise is the Lord God? For as Paul warned that not long after he was to depart and be with the Lord that the deceivers would come, preaching another Jesus, a different Spirit and a false Gospel.
We see its no longer the Jesus who forgives and accepts the harlot and brings His wrath upon the hypocrite who judges by the law.
We see its no longer the Holy Spirit of Acts 2, but a accusing and weak spirit of bondage again unto fear.

We see it no longer "freely justified by His Grace" But this perverted mixture of law with a powerless grace.
Acts 20:27-32

:32 And now brethern, I commend you to God, and to THE WORD OF HIS GRACE, which is able to build you up, and give you an inheritance among all those who are santified

 

[Mitspa]

Are you sure? because by the letter, circumcision is a very different thing that by the Spirit?

.....he'll find that it is not in violation of any jot or tittle of God's law as intended Spiritually.

Am I then putting forth that all of us here are to also be circumcised when I say LAW(1) is still valid - yes, but in its intended spiritual connotation. Why did God institute circumcision in the OT - it was to be a foreshadow of spiritual things to come - namely, the spiritual circumcising of our hearts - not by the self, but by the Spirit. And this is valid today. Similarly with all the ceremonial laws of the OT - doesn't passover translate spiritually to our Good Friday and the festival of First Fruits to our Easter - and don't we mandate ourselves to observe our redemption from death by the smearing of the blood of Christ on the doorposts of our souls - and don't we observe the resurrection of the First Fruit which assures the rest of us in Christ that we'd too be gathered similarly in the final harvest?

So yes, I am sure that all the commandments of the OT are still valid in its spiritual connotation even today.

God's ways of teaching man has always followed a pattern -

1) He shows/commands things in the physical world as a foreshadow of spiritual things to come, so that fleshly man may perceive and comprehend according to his limited physical senses.

2) After such establishing of His truths in the physical model, God then regenerates fleshly man to be born anew in the spirit.

3) God now shows forth the actual spiritual reality, that of which man had so far seen only a physical foreshadow of - but is now able to grasp completely with his new spiritual senses.

4) God now lays again the very things He had instituted in point-1) in its intended spiritual connotation - and sets forth just this spiritual reality where the physical model is no longer required.

I agree in large part with this post, but it does prove the point that I was seeking to make? That until one dies to the law and sees the New law of the Spirit of life in Christ. They are yet subject to the flesh.

As Paul says "I through the law, died to the law" One must be set free from the condemning power of the law and all attempts to justifiy oneself by the law, in order to walk in the Spirit and in life.

Now I know many attempt to claim they are not under the law, but you see that they are very much trying to justify themselves by the Ten Commandments and other parts of the law, which proves they are yet bound to the flesh.

 

[Mitspa]

well of course you did not quote the NEXT scripture Rom 7:8

Romans 7:8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Some good grace people understood this scripture in the past for as the old saying goes..."forbidden fruit" Used to describe how if one is told (especially used for children) there is something that they cannot have then that is just what they will desire for it is "forbidden fruit".
Or something they should not do, it is just what they desire to do.

We keep Jesus and His righteousness in our site, this is what we look at, not the law and this is what we will follow. For out of the heart of man comes the things he will believe and do.

Yes Deb, and this is what really rubs me the wrong way, and causes me to have great doubts about many who would ask to be received as brothers in Christ? Those who claim to be looking to the written code and "thou shalt not bear false witness" seem unable to present a scripture in its context or in an honest way? Now I accept that some just have been taught false doctrine and are just responding with what they know. But those who seem to have no desire to be honest in the Word of Truth, should not be held in honor.

As John wrote, if we receive those who teach false doctrines, we have become partakers of their evil deeds. We should not even grant them Gods speed nor a kind welcome.

 

[ivdavid]

Since God performs this circumcision not by hands but the spiritual connotation, why do people think they sin willfully? How does one crucify his flesh with Christ?

When you ask why people think they "sin" willfully, you're actually referring to 'sin' as the act of transgressing God's law. I believe people do use the power of the flesh to act(commit sin/transgress the law) - ie they act upon the counsel('will') of the flesh to satisfy their fleshly desires(also 'will' in the Bible). But there is "Sin" in the flesh that inclines man towards such continual transgressions(sinning).

So, I think I'd say that - Sin in the flesh makes people sin(transgress) willfully, where people can perhaps be made aware of their sinning but not aware of Sin in their flesh until God regenerates them. And when God does His miraculous supernatural redemptive work in him, man would find his flesh being crucified with Christ.

I've written what I thought would address your question - if you're looking for something more specific, I could elaborate.

 

[francisdesales]

Sorry again francis, but I have explained Luke 1:5-6

Which post did you explain this? The current one? Can you give me a post number, I must have missed it...

These people where before the Cross, and they kept ALL THE LAW, including sacrifices for sin. The fact that the bible says they were righteous in Gods sight and blamless means nothing as it relates to the gospel. No more than Paul being "blameless" but accounted that righteousness as dung.

Pretty disengenuous and nonsensical.

People "before the Cross" could keep ALL THE LAW, but once Jesus died on the cross, NO ONE COULD KEEP ALL OF THE LAW???

Ridiculous... :biglol Are you serious??? Or are you just avoiding the obvious - that your theology is falling apart under a bit of scrutiny?

Let's allow that to settle in a bit.

With Christ, no one could keep the Law, but before, people could.... How is Christ's death make it impossible to keep the Law for someone years after His death???

Your theology is confused.

This scripture does not in any way challenge the Gospel and its declaration that none are righteous, no not one.

Explain the declaration that no one is righteous with what you just stated above...

For when the gospel came Gods judgment was annouced that NO ONE DARE, to attempt to be justified by the law.
For GOD RIGHTEOUSNESS is revealed from heaven, and no man dare to establish their own by the law.

That was always the case. Nothing suddenly changed at 0 AD. Are you sure you have read the Old Testament? Where do you think Paul got "the just walk by faith"??? Don't you think he was familiar with the Psalms? Did the prophets read Paul of the future's mind??? Or has righteousness ALWAYS depended upon faith, even in Abraham's time???? Who is Paul TALKING about in Romans 4???

Now over and over you and others, claim that one cannot be justified by the law. Have you now changed your postion?

I have not changed my position. I never said anyone was justified by works of the Law. I would have to be like you and ignore what Scriptures plainly say to make that statement.

Don't put words in my mouth unless you can back them up. I don't appreciate people bearing false witness against me.

If you have a post number where I said people are justified by the works of the Law, produce it or withdraw your lying comments.

My point all alone has been that those of you who claim to keep the law, MUST KEEP ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW.

Your point is a strawman attack, another of your logical fallacies. You are out of your league, Mitspa. Why don't you debate what I actually am saying, rather inventing something and beating it with your false notions of my position.

now none of you are claiming that ALL THE LAW should be kept, but That is the biblical standard.

Of course you cannot keep this standard.

And we again come back to Luke 1:5-6... again, you argue against the Bible.

Your presumption would only apply to those who are TRYING to obligate God for a debt. No one can obligate God, as I have told you again and again. Do you think Elizabeth and Zechariah were trying to obligate God, to make God pay a debt??? You are sadly mistaken.

Mitspa, so much would be solved if you would just read my posts and apply some basic reading comprehension to them. Much of your confusion might blow away.

 

[francisdesales]

Gal 3:10-13
For as many as are under the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM"

This is the main subject of the book of Galatians. That those who had been freely justified by the grace of God, and given the free gift of righteousness. Had now turned back into the written code, and to attempts to justify themselves by parts of the law.
Pauls point was that if you try to keep any part of the written code, you are subject to keep it all. And in this effort to earn, what God only gives by faith, a man has turned from the blessing of Abraham unto the curse of the law.
Take notice that it is ALL THAT IS WRITTEN- EVERY JOT AND TITTLE!
So this is Pauls point from the begining of this epistle. If any man preach another gospel other than His Gospel, they are ANATHEMA
Those who teach the law and legalism are in fact "anathema" They are the "cursed" children of 2 Pet 2:14

2 Cor 3:12-15 Seeing we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not behold the end of that which is ABOLISHED.
But their MINDS WERE BLINDED, for even until this day the same vail remains at the reading of the OLD testament. WHICH IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
but even unto this day, when Moses is read the vail is upon their heart.

Deu 28:28-29 THE LORD SHALL SMITE THEE WITH MADNESS, AND BLINDNESS AND ASTONISHMENT OF HEART: AND THOU SHALT GROPE IN THE NOONDAY, AS THE BLIND GROPETH IN DARKNESS.

We see that those who cannot see that Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness. Are indeed cursed, and blind of mind and heart. Altough many claim to be children of the Day, they have no understanding of Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own righteousness, by the written code of the law.

Col 2:14-15 Having nailed the law to His Cross, Christ has disarmed satan? The name satan means ACCUSER.
satan hold believers in bondage to the weakness of their flesh and sin by deceiving them into looking to the law, (the strength of sin)

satans greatest weapon against the church is the law of moses, (the written code)

All his false ministers come as preachers of righteousness, promoting the law and works of the flesh.

Now none of them are so foolish as to try and teach the true standard of the law, but they bring in parts. For satan knows that if any man attempts to justified himself by any work of the law, satan has control of that persons mind and heart.
2 Cor 4:4

how wise is the Lord God? For as Paul warned that not long after he was to depart and be with the Lord that the deceivers would come, preaching another Jesus, a different Spirit and a false Gospel.
We see its no longer the Jesus who forgives and accepts the harlot and brings His wrath upon the hypocrite who judges by the law.
We see its no longer the Holy Spirit of Acts 2, but a accusing and weak spirit of bondage again unto fear.

We see it no longer "freely justified by His Grace" But this perverted mixture of law with a powerless grace.
Acts 20:27-32

:32 And now brethern, I commend you to God, and to THE WORD OF HIS GRACE, which is able to build you up, and give you an inheritance among all those who are santified

Wow, this is becoming a Mitspa quoting Mitspa citing Mitspa party...

 

[francisdesales]

So Paul is saying that the "jew" cannot keep or be justifed by the law, but we gentiles can? Thats just error built upon more error.
For the is no difference, and Paul males this point very clear, that He is speaking to ALL as it relates to the law and its purpose.
Rom 3:20-23
THEREFORE BY THE DEEDS OF THE LAW THERE SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED.
FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JEW AND THE GENTILE.

funny how some attempt to ingore the clear and evident truth of scripture by saying "Paul was speaking to the jews"

Has anyone ever noticed the pattern of those who attempt to promote legalism and self-righteousness?

Has anyone noticed that certain people are actually unable to discern an argument's points offered by another person and must invent another one, because all they can do is cut and paste the same old argument ad nauseum?

HAS ANYONE ELSE noticed that Mitspa's posts are REMARKABLE similar - they say nothing new - and they rarely address what previous posters actually said!

WHO, Mitspa, WHO is promoting legalism? WHO is promoting a return to the "Mosaic Law"? Not me.

I guess you had an argument with someone once upon a time and you are merely cutting and pasting that argument here, because it is certain you are NOT addressing what is being said here by your interlocutors.

In the name of peace and harmony, Mitspa, spend some time are READ WHAT IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN. Can you do that?

 

[ivdavid]

I agree in large part with this post, but it does prove the point that I was seeking to make? That until one dies to the law and sees the New law of the Spirit of life in Christ. They are yet subject to the flesh.

As Paul says "I through the law, died to the law" One must be set free from the condemning power of the law and all attempts to justifiy oneself by the law, in order to walk in the Spirit and in life.

Now I know many attempt to claim they are not under the law, but you see that they are very much trying to justify themselves by the Ten Commandments and other parts of the law, which proves they are yet bound to the flesh.

Not in "large part" - but I agree with this "entire" post of yours. My only point was that you weren't distinguishing between the Law(set of God's decrees) and the law(rule of principle for justification/self-righteous meriting)

Obeying the Ten Commandments itself isn't wrong - Obeying them by their own works of the flesh in order to earn justification by self-righteousness is wrong. Similarly with all the other commandments of God - keeping them in the spirit by the grace of God devoid of any self-merit is not wrong; keeping them to earn/maintain justification by self-righteousness is wrong. The former set of decrees is still valid in its spiritual connotation today - the latter rule of principle to the self/flesh has been nailed to the cross and has passed away.

My only point all along has been to distinguish between these two. And the reason for that is - if we don't distinguish between the self-righteous principle of justification and God's set of decrees, then when I say that the principle has passed away, I'd have to concede that God's set of decrees in the OT has also passed away - but they haven't passed away and are still valid in their true spiritual significance today, having entirely fulfilled the role of a physical model back then.

 

[Mitspa]

Which post did you explain this? The current one? Can you give me a post number, I must have missed it...



Pretty disengenuous and nonsensical.

People "before the Cross" could keep ALL THE LAW, but once Jesus died on the cross, NO ONE COULD KEEP ALL OF THE LAW???

Ridiculous... :biglol Are you serious??? Or are you just avoiding the obvious - that your theology is falling apart under a bit of scrutiny?

Let's allow that to settle in a bit.

With Christ, no one could keep the Law, but before, people could.... How is Christ's death make it impossible to keep the Law for someone years after His death???

Your theology is confused.



Explain the declaration that no one is righteous with what you just stated above...

For when the gospel came Gods judgment was annouced that NO ONE DARE, to attempt to be justified by the law.
For GOD RIGHTEOUSNESS is revealed from heaven, and no man dare to establish their own by the law.

That was always the case. Nothing suddenly changed at 0 AD. Are you sure you have read the Old Testament? Where do you think Paul got "the just walk by faith"??? Don't you think he was familiar with the Psalms? Did the prophets read Paul of the future's mind??? Or has righteousness ALWAYS depended upon faith, even in Abraham's time???? Who is Paul TALKING about in Romans 4???

Now over and over you and others, claim that one cannot be justified by the law. Have you now changed your postion?

I have not changed my position. I never said anyone was justified by works of the Law. I would have to be like you and ignore what Scriptures plainly say to make that statement.

Don't put words in my mouth unless you can back them up. I don't appreciate people bearing false witness against me.

If you have a post number where I said people are justified by the works of the Law, produce it or withdraw your lying comments.

My point all alone has been that those of you who claim to keep the law, MUST KEEP ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW.

Your point is a strawman attack, another of your logical fallacies. You are out of your league, Mitspa. Why don't you debate what I actually am saying, rather inventing something and beating it with your false notions of my position.

now none of you are claiming that ALL THE LAW should be kept, but That is the biblical standard.

Of course you cannot keep this standard.

And we again come back to Luke 1:5-6... again, you argue against the Bible.

Your presumption would only apply to those who are TRYING to obligate God for a debt. No one can obligate God, as I have told you again and again. Do you think Elizabeth and Zechariah were trying to obligate God, to make God pay a debt??? You are sadly mistaken.

Mitspa, so much would be solved if you would just read my posts and apply some basic reading comprehension to them. Much of your confusion might blow away.

I have made very clear and biblical points, that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law is evident. Now when Christ came, the Kingdom of God came. When He was Crucified this was the end of the law for righteousness.
Now if you cannot see that all things changed at the Cross? I cannot help you. And as Paul said if anyone seeks to keep any part of the written code, THEY MUST KEEP IT ALL.

now these people kept ALL THE LAW, AND OFFERED SACRIFICE AS THE LAW DESCRIBED.

just as it is written in the book of Heb. Those who turn back to the law, are in "willing sin" and have rejected and accounted the Blood of Christ as a common sacrifice.
They have rejected the Spirit of Grace.