The CURSE OF THE LAW

[Mitspa]

Well it seems that many are still looking to the Ten Commandments, and are in fact trying to be righteous by the written code. This is error and those who look to the strength of sin, are yet in bondage to sin.Rom 7:8

Romans 3 is clear that no one, by human effort alone, can achieve righteousness. Whether with or without the Mosaic Law. Thus, the need for faith.

The discussion on whether someone could KEEP the Mosaic Law is inconsequential and was a distraction. Who cares if someone COULD keep the Law, what is important is whether THAT was the CORRECT MOTIVE. I posit that even the "perfectly righteous" are made so by God's mercy. The truth is that the sacrificial system for Jews was part of God's merciful plan to allow faithful following of the Law. So Luke 1:5-6 is a statement of Zechariah and Elizebeth's FAITH, not their utter perfection in following the Law. Otherwise, as I stated before, why would Moses say that the Law COULD be followed - and not too difficult. Because God would forgive faults, if one turned to Him.

Again, I point you to the numerous Psalms that make this clear - man is nothing without God's grace. That idea did not originate with Paul. It is STILL my contention that this "avenue to God" has always been open, that faith in God's mercy has always been the way to seek out God.

I still disagree that people who are trying to follow "portions" of the Law are necessarily "of sin". There is some confusion on the Divine Law - what we would call "Natural Law" vs the Mosaic Law. Thus, definitions are important. But to lump ALL people who attempt to obey God's commandments with "SIN" is wrong. Some people were legitimately trying to follow God BY following the Law. Whether written on stone or the heart. It is not the attempt to obey God that is wrong. It is the motive, Mitspa.

And Paul's motive is not a "works" v "faith" argument, it is a Jewish Law following v Faith in Christ argument. The Gentiles are also loved by God, and God's Oneness is seen in the one plan offered to save man - Jesus Christ and faith.

But it is good to see that you have changed your opinions and doctrines, because it is clear to me, that you have very much attempted to establish "parts" of the law as needed to justifiy a believer who is justified by faith.

If you will recall, I have posted about a dozen requests to read what I wrote - that you were misunderstanding my point as you gave me a strawman argument (arguing against a point that I was not making). Is it conceivable that you misunderstood my point and I have NOT changed it???

Be that as it may, it is good that you have taken the time to read what I wrote and have found some agreement in it.

Yes francis, it is good to agree on Gods grace.
I will say that in grace we can with confidence and apart from guilt or efforts of the flesh, look into the law and see those good things, and trust that through Gods love for us, love others. I do not think of stealing, I have Gods love and I look to give where I can. I could never look upon another mans wife, when I love as God loves. When my heart is full I do not look to covet. Love has taught me to look to give and not to take. But I did not learn this love through the written code.
I learned to love, when I knew God loved me UNCONDITIONALLY. that my weakness would never cause Him to remove His love. I learned to love God, because He first loved me. I know and trust His love, and with it I love others.

Consider at the end of Romans 8, Paul makes absolute clear that the law no longer can charge us with sin, and then He makes the point that we can NEVER be seperated from Gods love? Now I war against those who would lay the yoke of law again between the believer and Our God. Because it is our own guilt that seperates us from His Love, The source of guilt is the written code of the law. Now that guilt keeps us from Gods love, the very love we need to fulfill those good things we see in the law. It is a mystery! But being rooted and grounded in "love" we may comprehend.

 

[Mitspa]

Gal 3:10-13
For as many as are under the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM"

This is the main subject of the book of Galatians. That those who had been freely justified by the grace of God, and given the free gift of righteousness. Had now turned back into the written code, and to attempts to justify themselves by parts of the law.
Pauls point was that if you try to keep any part of the written code, you are subject to keep it all. And in this effort to earn, what God only gives by faith, a man has turned from the blessing of Abraham unto the curse of the law.
Take notice that it is ALL THAT IS WRITTEN- EVERY JOT AND TITTLE!
So this is Pauls point from the begining of this epistle. If any man preach another gospel other than His Gospel, they are ANATHEMA
Those who teach the law and legalism are in fact "anathema" They are the "cursed" children of 2 Pet 2:14

2 Cor 3:12-15 Seeing we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not behold the end of that which is ABOLISHED.
But their MINDS WERE BLINDED, for even until this day the same vail remains at the reading of the OLD testament. WHICH IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
but even unto this day, when Moses is read the vail is upon their heart.

Deu 28:28-29 THE LORD SHALL SMITE THEE WITH MADNESS, AND BLINDNESS AND ASTONISHMENT OF HEART: AND THOU SHALT GROPE IN THE NOONDAY, AS THE BLIND GROPETH IN DARKNESS.

We see that those who cannot see that Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness. Are indeed cursed, and blind of mind and heart. Altough many claim to be children of the Day, they have no understanding of Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own righteousness, by the written code of the law.

Paul wrote that NOTHING PROFITS ANYTHING BUT FAITH WORKING BY LOVE.
This is the simplicty of Christ.
As satan decieved eve? Did God really say, not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
As that wicked Cain who labored in that which God had cursed, and hated righteous Able who offered the Lamb by faith.
THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not using any "swimming" analogy, never heard of it. I point was "sinking and swimming" are not of God, to walk on water, walk in the Sprit we must judge ourselves by what Jesus, grace, says about the born again believer.

(I'M using a swimming analogy. It's an accurate analogy to help understand the role of works in the life of faith. I was not connecting it to what you were saying about water.)

You say I can only judge myself according to the grace of God's forgiveness in Christ, assuming I really have it applied to my life? The Bible says I can judge myself whether I have God's love by how I act according to various laws in the law of Moses. Using James' example, "Am I walking in the Spirit if I show favoritism and violate the law of forbidding favoritism in Leviticus 19:15?" Yes, or no?

We are not to judge ourselves or anyone else for justification unto salvation, by the LAW. I can't find anywhere in the Word that we are to do this.

I showed you that, ultimately, the law is how we are judged. You even quoted one of passages that tells us that: James 2:11-13 NASB.

I suspect you've been trained by bad doctrine to not see the plain words there in James 1 & 2 and have been taught to understand them in a different way. James says the 'law of liberty' is Leviticus 19:18.

James is not saying this. Read the whole thing Jethro, he's actually speaking against this. He is settling some obvious disputes that were going on about faith and works, yes but not saying that we are to judge ourselves or anyone else by works. Yes, he says faith without works is dead faith but what is he going by, not the works of the law (sin/not sin) but the fruit of the Spirit. LOVE

Am I loving someone if I show favoritism (James 2:8-9)? Am I showing the love of the Spirit if I ignore their physical need?

"14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works (Deuteronomy 15:7-8 NASB), is dead, being by itself." (James 2:14-17 NASB)

"16...we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19 We will know by this (Deuteronomy 15:7-8 NASB) that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. " (1 John 3:16-20 NASB)


But you say we can not judge ourselves by our works...and works of the law, as I'm showing you? James and John are in disagreement with you. Explain why you do not agree with them.

The Law does not produce LOVE, it produces judgment.

So what does that have to do with what we're talking about here? We're talking about upholding the law by faith in Christ's blood (Romans 3:31 NASB).

The Bible teaches us that we can know if we love as God loves by if we keep various laws in the law of Moses, even setting our hearts at rest by that obedience if our hearts condemn us. You are showing me you do not believe what you probably did not know the Bible teaches about works and how faith is validated by works, even works of the law.

What does Jesus produce? LOVE It is His love that draws us to Him. It is His Love that produces repentance. We love because He first love us. Love is the fruit of the Spirit.

...which then upholds the law of Moses.

I showed you the Bible says that. Do you want to argue the point?

If you want to judge yourself " judge am I walking in love?" If you find yourself lacking the solution is......Look to Jesus and what He says about you. You are beloved, you are a saint, you are a priest, you are His (the Father's) child, you are LOVED. You didn't do anything to deserve it. It's by His Grace (unmerited favor). Steep yourself in His love. His love produces love. It's what the Law cannot do.

The law doing that is not the argument being made. But I know you are conditioned to automatically hear the actual argument being made that way.

We know and agree that it is the love of God in us that reaches out to others. The Bible says that reaching out in love is how we can validate the love of God that produced it. If you can't validate the surety of God's love in you, you and I need to examine our faith. We may well not be in Christ at all. That is why the Bible tells us to 'make our calling and election sure' (2 Peter 1:10 NASB). That is, we are exhorted to show our salvation to be a sure thing.

As far as knowing others by their fruit, most of us can't, our discernment is not that developed. You would say that if you see someone not doing, then they are not saved.

No, that's not what I say. What I say is I have Biblical authority to consider a person saved, or not, in my own mind, and then treat them accordingly. Don't believe that? Read:

"15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector (an unbeliever)." (Matthew 18: NASB parenthesis mine)


"6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 4:6-10 NASB)

What about the person who is doing, for all intense and purposes they look good. Can you see their heart and mind? There are people in the secular world who do more to show love then some who are saved.

But they do not practice righteousness (see vs. 10 above), and they do not love ALL people including their enemies.

I have never met, or heard of, an unbeliever or atheist who bragged about their love, but who was not angry and foul mouthed, and who did not hate, for example, their enemy the Church. This isn't just about love, or just about various laws of Moses, but about the law of Moses (and the prophets) being upheld through the love of God.

You still have not given me a scripture that says we are to judge ourselves by the LAW.

But I did, but I suspect your indoctrination won't let you see the plain words of scripture:

"8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Leviticus 19:18) you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors." (James 2:8-9 NASB)

Resist the temptation to make the plain words go away, or mean something else than they plainly mean. Read it and take it to heart and reject the 'grace is a license to sin to avoid being judged by the law' indoctrination so prevalent in the church today. How will you know if you have the faith that saves if you do not make any attempt to "make your calling and election sure" as we are told to do? Faith alone can not validate faith as able to save.

Only faith + works can validate the saving presence of the faith that justifies apart from works.

You'll have to make a purposeful attempt to park the erroneous indoctrination of grace that overwhelms the church these days to understand that statement. Chances are you can only hear it saying, "we are justified by our works". But read it carefully. That is NOT what it is saying.


The curse is not upholding the law through faith. The curse of the law is NOT DOING THE LAW by relying on the law to do the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now I have made clear biblical points and I have answered all your questions with clear biblical truth.

Did you forget?

You stopped responding when you realized you could not refute the plain words of the Bible. You left a LOT of stuff on the table. It's a waste of cyber breath to talk to you anymore. Your understanding is hardened over by the erroneous indoctrination of grace in the church today. It's so bad in you that you can't even understand the argument being leveled against your doctrine. And until you can understand the argument it's just a waste of time to talk to you.

Now I know that you have made it clear that you are anointed and gifted and called by God to teach the church about all this, so if you dare, take the post I just made to Deb and take it piece by piece and explain how what the Bible so plainly says is not really to be taken that way. That's what indoctrinations do--they teach you how to ignore plain truth.

 

[childeye]

Nobody would help me with my honest questions about the discrepencies I perceived. In fact it seemed like nobody else even cared to question what it meant to drink his blood or eat his flesh. As a Catholic, one tends to assume the church will tell you what you need to believe.

You know in another response I almost brought up receiving the body and blood of Christ. You may not agree with me about this and that's OK I won't be offended, frankly at one time I would not have agreed with me.
I was taught that we must exam ourselves for sin and repent of it before taking this sacrament because if you weren't worthy you could get sick or even die.
Since receiving a better understanding of our Lord's grace and mercy, I also learned this.
I read and reread that scripture and thought, it is talking about the way they were receiving, eating and drinking as though it were not sacred and not sharing. This is what worthily meant. Then
I thought more about "do this to remember Me". Well that really means remember what I did for you. He died to pay for my sin and He took the stripes for my healing. So if I have sin or if I am sick that's just what He was taking care of at the cross and I need to receive forgiveness and healing when I receive His body and His blood. This is why some may be sick or even die because of not receiving Him.
I don't know that I explained that very well but it was such a wonderful revelation to me. Now I could receive the sacrament without any fear and with more of a revelation of why and receive once again from Him just as I received from Him when I became born again. Remission of sin and healing. What an amazing Lord we have.

I do agree with you. It is to be done in memory of him and particularly his death on the cross. It is a sacrament therefore or a sign of something sacred. That sacred thing being the Love that would sacrifice so much for us. I'm afraid my problems with discernment go deeper than that. In fact my problems involve that which would be such sacrilege, that I cannot discuss them here.

 

[Mitspa]

Now I have made clear biblical points and I have answered all your questions with clear biblical truth.

Did you forget?

You stopped responding when you realized you could not refute the plain words of the Bible. You left a LOT of stuff on the table. It's a waste of cyber breath to talk to you anymore. Your understanding is hardened over by the erroneous indoctrination of grace in the church today. It's so bad in you that you can't even understand the argument being leveled against your doctrine. And until you can understand the argument it's just a waste of time to talk to you.

Now I know that you have made it clear that you are anointed and gifted and called by God to teach the church about all this, so if you dare, take the post I just made to Deb and take it piece by piece and explain how what the Bible so plainly says is not really to be taken that way. That's what indoctrinations do--they teach you how to ignore plain truth.

I have already been through James with you. You already lost that discussion. You can ignore the whole of the new testament and make James say something it does not say if you like? The royal law is "love" James uses the law as a witness to love, just as Paul did.

The law of liberty is the Law of the Spirit, by which we are set at LIBERTY from the law of sin and death THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.


Now a living faith is the faith that Paul taught, to walk in the spirit and life.

Just as Paul wrote; NOTHING PROFITS ANYTHING, BUT FAITH WORKING BY LOVE.

the law is not of faith, those who seek to be justified by the law have FALLEN FROM GRACE.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

the law is not of faith, those who seek to be justified by the law have FALLEN FROM GRACE.

I'm astounded that you can only hear any mention of 'law' as trying to be justified by the law. I'm becoming convinced you may be doing it on purpose because you can't answer the argument being leveled against your misguided doctrine of grace. I can't take you seriously anymore.

But if you really think you're up to it, I challenge you to stay on topic and address the exact scriptural points I made in my last post to Deb.

 

[Mitspa]

All through the New Testament Paul teaches that love fulfills the law. Jesus said this Is My Commandment that you love one another as I have loved you.
Paul wrote that all the law is fulfilled in one word? Love

Now this is the Royal law! And James uses this the same way Paul did, After making it very clear that none can keep the written code, that the law produces sinful desires and is the strength of sin.Rom 7:8
That sin will not have dominion over us because we are not under law but under grace.
That the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death, (which is clearly the Ten Commandments) After Paul teaches all these things in Romans he explains how love has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:8-10
Now James is making the same point, but adds that we cannot just love the rich man and not poor, and say we are keeping the royal law, no more than we could say we are keeping the law of moses by not commiting adultry but yet are commiting murder.
Now Paul used this scripture and taught these things and used the law as a witness to love.

So to say James is putting believers back under the 10 Commandments is just to deny the whole of the rest of the New Testament. It is not honest and as always those who preach "thou shalt not bear false witness" are shown to be breakers of the law they claim to keep.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The royal law is "love" James uses the law as a witness to love, just as Paul did.

Don't you know the royal law, the law of liberty, is LEVITUCUS 19:18? James himself says this. How is the command to love somehow not the law of Moses? How are the lawful examples that 'keep' the law of love somehow not the law of Moses?

The New Covenant is God writing the law of Moses, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself', on the heart via the voice of the Holy Spirit. But you say to acknowledge the law is to come under the curse of the law. How ridiculous.

The curse of the law is to NOT UPHOLD THE LAW. That is why trying to serve God through the old way of mere written words brings the curse. Not because simply knowing what the law says somehow makes us sin! It is not a curse to uphold the law. The curse is to NOT uphold the law. Your doctrine is terribly misguided. Terribly.

 

[Mitspa]

the law is not of faith, those who seek to be justified by the law have FALLEN FROM GRACE.

I'm astounded that you can only hear any mention of 'law' as trying to be justified by the law. I'm becoming convinced you may be doing it on purpose because you can't answer the argument being leveled against your misguided doctrine of grace. I can't take you seriously anymore.

But if you really think you're up to it, I challenge you to stay on topic and address the exact scriptural points I made in my last post to Deb.

To FALL FROM GRACE means one was justified in grace and has turned back to the law. This is made VERY CLEAR in the book of Gal.

 

[Mitspa]

The royal law is "love" James uses the law as a witness to love, just as Paul did.

Don't you know the royal law, the law of liberty, is LEVITUCUS 19:18? James himself says this. How is the command to love somehow not the law of Moses? How are the lawful examples that 'keep' the law of love somehow not the law of Moses?

The New Covenant is God writing the law of Moses, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself', on the heart via the voice of the Holy Spirit. But you say to acknowledge the law is to come under the curse of the law. How ridiculous.

The curse of the law is to NOT UPHOLD THE LAW. That is why trying to serve God through the old way of mere written words brings the curse. Not because simply knowing what the law says somehow makes us sin! It is not a curse to uphold the law. The curse is to NOT uphold the law. Your doctrine is terribly misguided. Terribly.

So what? Paul uses the same scripture to make the same point.

Those who seek to be justified by the 10 Commandments are in fact under the curse. For cursed are those who continue not IN ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW!

all means all, if you keep the ten commandments you must keep all the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So to say James is putting believers back under the 10 Commandments is just to deny the whole of the rest of the New Testament.

What does that mean to you, 'putting believers back under the 10 Commandments'?????

How incredibly misguided it is to think believers do not have an obligation to uphold the moral commands found in the Ten Commandments. And you're calling ME a false witness? Really?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

all means all, if you keep the ten commandments you must keep all the law.

Which of the moral commandments have you chosen to not keep so you won't be cursed by the law?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To FALL FROM GRACE means one was justified in grace and has turned back to the law. This is made VERY CLEAR in the book of Gal.

Turning back to the law MEANS trying to be justified by the law, NOT KEEPING THE LAW IN AND OF ITSELF. How is it you can not understand this?

We are commanded to uphold the law. How is it that it is a curse to uphold the law if you are not trying to be justified by that law keeping? Your doctrine is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Mitspa]

all means all, if you keep the ten commandments you must keep all the law.

Which of the moral commandments have you chosen to not keep so you won't be cursed by the law?

Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

The ministry of death and condemnation written in stones 2 Cor 3

FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS SET ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

the ten commandments.

 

[Mitspa]

To FALL FROM GRACE means one was justified in grace and has turned back to the law. This is made VERY CLEAR in the book of Gal.

Turning back to the law MEANS trying to be justified by the law, NOT KEEPING THE LAW IN AND OF ITSELF. How is it you can not understand this?

We are commanded to uphold the law. How is it that it is a curse to uphold the law if you are not trying to be justified by that law keeping? Your doctrine is utterly ridiculous.

Yes those who turn from grace and the rightousness of God and go about to establish their own righteousness by the ten commandments THE LAW have fallen from grace.

How can one uphold something they cannot or do not keep?

No we "establish" the law for its purpose. Read the same chapter upon which you are misquoting this scripture.

The purpose of the law is to make the whole world guilty and to bring us to Christ That we might be justified by faith.

Paul also covers this issue in very clear and evident ways in the Book of Gal. Maybe you should read ALL THE NEW TESTAMENT?

 

[Mitspa]

this is something one will notice about those who try to be teachers of the law? The scriptures are very simple when we walk in love, we have fulfilled the law. So why are some so concerned that the Ten Commandments be laid upon the believer? If they really wanted God to be pleased thay would teach others how love works. They would be focused upon love. But they are not! They are focused upon judging others sin and making sure others are under a set of rules, that they cannot or do not keep themselves.
I say love because Gods first loves us. I say the letter kills but the spirit gives life.
If one is really concerned about sin and keeping the law, they will teach grace and love.

For sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but under grace.

No they are not concerned with Gods justice and Gods ways, they are like the pharisee, who seek to condemn those Christ has forgiven.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes francis, it is good to agree on Gods grace.

AH, this is more like it!

I will say that in grace we can with confidence and apart from guilt or efforts of the flesh, look into the law and see those good things, and trust that through Gods love for us, love others. I do not think of stealing, I have Gods love and I look to give where I can. I could never look upon another mans wife, when I love as God loves. When my heart is full I do not look to covet. Love has taught me to look to give and not to take. But I did not learn this love through the written code.

The "written code" is like a fence that keeps us aware of what God expects of us - but it also marks transgressions. We find how we fail, each of us, in keeping what God expects of us. When if we obeyed the decalogue? What sort of world would this be?

From my experience, we are in a state of "flux", if you will. It appears to me that God's Spirit does not overwhelm us and we CAN become slaves to sin, even during the course of a day, when a pretty woman walks by. That "old man" doesn't die so easily - and we must not think that we have defeated completely those urges. We still are human and sometimes God allows us to be tempted for a greater good that we don't see at the moment. In other words, I don't see a "black" or "white", but rather, a Paul who puts forward an ideal and exhorts us to make an effort to live up to our calling.

I learned to love, when I knew God loved me UNCONDITIONALLY. that my weakness would never cause Him to remove His love. I learned to love God, because He first loved me. I know and trust His love, and with it I love others.

That is a key point within the Gospel, to recognize sin and its effects on us and our humble calling upon God that He grants us mercy.

Consider at the end of Romans 8, Paul makes absolute clear that the law no longer can charge us with sin, and then He makes the point that we can NEVER be seperated from Gods love? Now I war against those who would lay the yoke of law again between the believer and Our God.

Understood - but Paul's message is fraught with the danger of antinomianism - probably the reason why James wrote his letter. Peter warns that Paul can be misread. One can get the idea that morality serves no purpose. Thus, one must be careful when they preach the Word of God from only the point of Paul, who is concerned with Judaizers for the most part, rather than people worried about doing every point of the Law perfectly. Is God the God of only the Jews? No - also the Gentiles. So the Mosaic Law cannot stand, it serves as a dividing wall between Greek and Jew. It was a shadow of the good thing to come, the New Covenant written on the hearts of men by the Spirit and set in motion by the blood of Christ. I look at "faith alone" as more a "footnote" in Romans - the primary message is that ALL of us depend upon God for justification and for future sanctification to enter the Kingdom.

Because it is our own guilt that seperates us from His Love, The source of guilt is the written code of the law. Now that guilt keeps us from Gods love, the very love we need to fulfill those good things we see in the law. It is a mystery! But being rooted and grounded in "love" we may comprehend.

In one way, you are correct, guilt stems from knowledge of the written code. But it also stems from our conscience - one doesn't/didn't have to be Jewish to feel guilty in falling short of the glory of God. Paul's polemics are based upon him being the "Apostle to the Gentiles". He felt that ALL men are equal in God's eyes, and the Law kept that from being lived out. WHY become circumcised? The circumcised were in no better position in God's eyes when it counted - final judgment, which is based upon good deeds. Did those who possess the Mosaic Law carry it out any better?

Guilt keeps us from God's love. Perhaps. It can also be a beginning to conversion, don't you agree? Sort of like the difference between Peter and Judas...

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

AH, this is more like it!



The "written code" is like a fence that keeps us aware of what God expects of us - but it also marks transgressions. We find how we fail, each of us, in keeping what God expects of us. When if we obeyed the decalogue? What sort of world would this be?

From my experience, we are in a state of "flux", if you will. It appears to me that God's Spirit does not overwhelm us and we CAN become slaves to sin, even during the course of a day, when a pretty woman walks by. That "old man" doesn't die so easily - and we must not think that we have defeated completely those urges. We still are human and sometimes God allows us to be tempted for a greater good that we don't see at the moment. In other words, I don't see a "black" or "white", but rather, a Paul who puts forward an ideal and exhorts us to make an effort to live up to our calling.




That is a key point within the Gospel, to recognize sin and its effects on us and our humble calling upon God that He grants us mercy.

Consider at the end of Romans 8, Paul makes absolute clear that the law no longer can charge us with sin, and then He makes the point that we can NEVER be seperated from Gods love? Now I war against those who would lay the yoke of law again between the believer and Our God.

Understood - but Paul's message is fraught with the danger of antinomianism - probably the reason why James wrote his letter. Peter warns that Paul can be misread. One can get the idea that morality serves no purpose. Thus, one must be careful when they preach the Word of God from only the point of Paul, who is concerned with Judaizers for the most part, rather than people worried about doing every point of the Law perfectly. Is God the God of only the Jews? No - also the Gentiles. So the Mosaic Law cannot stand, it serves as a dividing wall between Greek and Jew. It was a shadow of the good thing to come, the New Covenant written on the hearts of men by the Spirit and set in motion by the blood of Christ. I look at "faith alone" as more a "footnote" in Romans - the primary message is that ALL of us depend upon God for justification and for future sanctification to enter the Kingdom.

Because it is our own guilt that seperates us from His Love, The source of guilt is the written code of the law. Now that guilt keeps us from Gods love, the very love we need to fulfill those good things we see in the law. It is a mystery! But being rooted and grounded in "love" we may comprehend.

In one way, you are correct, guilt stems from knowledge of the written code. But it also stems from our conscience - one doesn't/didn't have to be Jewish to feel guilty in falling short of the glory of God. Paul's polemics are based upon him being the "Apostle to the Gentiles". He felt that ALL men are equal in God's eyes, and the Law kept that from being lived out. WHY become circumcised? The circumcised were in no better position in God's eyes when it counted - final judgment, which is based upon good deeds. Did those who possess the Mosaic Law carry it out any better?

Guilt keeps us from God's love. Perhaps. It can also be a beginning to conversion, don't you agree? Sort of like the difference between Peter and Judas...

Regards

Well I have heard the term "antinomianism" and it is a charge that many laid upon Paul. What Paul taught and what I am teaching is going from the law of carnal commandments to the law written upon the heart. For the great promise of the Old Testament was that God would pour out His Spirit upon man, that HE WOULD WRITE HIS LAW UPON THE HEARTS, AND THAT NO MAN WOULD NEED TO TEACH ANOTHER, SAYING KNOW THE LORD, FOR WILL KNOW HIM, FORM THE LEAST TO THE GREASTEST.
now in that Paul wrote the "law of the Spirit" of life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death.

He is showing us, for those who are born-again, we are to be set free from the old and walk in the New.

Now this is not a message that religion has much use for, why? Because it very well makes God the ruler of each believers conscience. I WILL BE THERE GOD AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, THEY SHALL NOT EVERY MAN TEACH EACH OTHER, SAYING KNOW THE LORD, FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST.
However, this is the message of the New Testament. That each man has the Spirit of God, and each man need not to look to the written code but to the law written upon his own heart.

Now religion will make up terms "antinomism" etc...
Because the true gospel takes away the power of religion.

Now will all walk in the Spirit? no! Will all keep love as the law? no!
But we do not change the gospel because some will not obey it.

 

[francisdesales]

Well I have heard the term "antinomianism" and it is a charge that many laid upon Paul. What Paul taught and what I am teaching is going from the law of carnal commandments to the law written upon the heart.

I still think there are some "bugs" in what you are saying - "carnal commandments"? When Paul is speaking of things of the flesh, he is talking about satisfying the self. Paul lists some examples in Galatians 5, and brings up a list of things of the spirit. Flesh v spirit = selfish desires v selflessness.

The "commandments" or "written code" does not necessary bring out "selfish desires". The code makes transgressions known more readily, bringing up the guilt you spoke of earlier of how short we fall from the glory of God. The commandments do not produce murder and adultry. The evil in mens' hearts do that. Whether we have a written code or not, Paul tells us in Romans 1 and 3 that all men have fallen short, code or not. His point is that the code didn't make the People of Israel any holier than the pagans in fulfilling the commandments.

But if it is as you say, the Jews would be WORSE than the pagans, (since they had the "carnal commandments", as you call them) I don't think Paul supports that.

It appears you are blaming something holy (according to Paul) for the downfall of the Jewish people.

Note, I am not saying we go back to the Law, but that we should appreciate what Paul is saying - that the Law doesn't make people just in God's eyes. Faith does. And that's entirely a gift (Eph 2). Those who want to return to the "dividing wall" of the Mosaic Law are declining to accept faith in Jesus as God's new way of being just. New in that it is available to all people.

Now this is not a message that religion has much use for, why? Because it very well makes God the ruler of each believers conscience. I WILL BE THERE GOD AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, THEY SHALL NOT EVERY MAN TEACH EACH OTHER, SAYING KNOW THE LORD, FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST.
However, this is the message of the New Testament. That each man has the Spirit of God, and each man need not to look to the written code but to the law written upon his own heart.

There is danger in the excessive individual source for morality. It makes morality subjective. Whatever I feel is "from the spirit" is OK. There are dangers in this because everyone THINKS that they are led by the Spirit of God, when that may not be the case in every waking thought that they have. Many of my separated brothers now feel contraception is a perfectly moral option - but that was so only since 1930. Before that, every large denomination believed the same - contraception was inherently evil. What changed? The Spirit of God told Protestants and lax Catholics that contraception was now good??? No, excessive individualism and "free choice" - self-serving people overturning objective morality.

I am using this as an example of how subjective morality is not in God's plans. God does not change, and what was inherently evil remains inherently evil - by definition.

Now religion will make up terms "antinomism" etc...
Because the true gospel takes away the power of religion.

Religion, according to James, is not something to look down upon, but something to aspire to. The term "religion" is improperly used. If you mean "legalism", just say it. The term "religion" is not inherently pejorative.

Regards