The CURSE OF THE LAW

[Jethro Bodine]

How is love somehow a command separate and unconnected to the keeping of the moral laws of Moses? How did the requirements of the law, 'do not covet', 'do not steal', etc. become 'works' and the curse of the law, while this vague, nebulous idea of love, unrelated to and little to do with the law of Moses, became the only 'thing' we have to do?

Vague, nebulous idea?? Since when is God's Love, vague and nebulous?

When it has no actions, lawful actions, attached to it, the thoughts of well-doing and love being enough to save the person who has those. Love is a verb, not just a feeling. We get so easily deceived by feelings and think those are sufficient to prove we have the faith that can save us on the Day of Wrath. Biblically, there is no foundation to this deceit whatsoever. The exact opposite is taught.

I don't know who these people in the church are that you are speaking of or who they are getting their idea of love and grace from. God's Love is very real, powerful, all encompassing. It is by this powerful love that we are able to love God and love others with a true love that shows true faith.

Then why do people resist what the Bible says that true faith is shown in the keeping of the law, Deuteronomy 15:7-8 being ONE example James and John use, for fear that would be 'trying to be justified by the law', aka 'works'?

It's this love of God that enables us to forgive others of even the most terrible offenses against us.
The Word says that those who have been forgiven much, love much. Why do you think that is? When someone understands how big God's love, mercy, Grace is towards them it produces love. Now I believe what God says and if He says His grace produces love, which is what I want to have, then I am going to walk in grace.

You're preaching to the choir. Where we disagree is you say we can't judge the love of God in us by if we kept various laws in the law of Moses or not. That would amount to Mitspa's narrow, uneducated meaning of 'looking to the law'. If you're following my posts I showed this is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY false.

There is one fruit of the Spirit, it is love.

Actually, there is more than one. Love is the one that binds them all together.

That fruit gives us the strength to act in love.

That's the NEW WAY I've been talking about!

Looking at the law does not produce the fruit of the Spirit, looking at Jesus, looking at the cross does.

This indoctrination of law/grace in the church is causing you to misunderstand the argument. This isn't about using the law to find strength to keep the law. I showed you in the Bible that we can tell if we've been walking in the Spirit by whether we have kept various laws of Moses, or not. But that is INSTANTLY understood to mean looking to the law 'trying to be justified by the law', hands clasped firmly over the ears refusing to hear the actual argument being made and the truth plainly spelled out for us in our NT's.

Do a little history lesson. You can thank the early church for this foolish, blind misunderstanding of law in the church. A misunderstanding that eventually became the 'faith that doesn't have works attached still saves' belief that grips the church today.

 

[Mitspa]

For the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
Those who look to the written code are not in the Spirit but are in the flesh.
So they cannot please God.

Your narrow and single-minded definition of 'looking to the law' is what is wrong here. And for some reason you refuse to be shown there is a much broader and acceptable way to 'look to the law'.

I showed you where John and James said we can know by the law if we have the righteousness of Christ and belong to the truth and have eternal life and have the love of God in us and can expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath. But you, along with much of the church, categorically dismiss any and all acknowledgment of the requirements of the law as 'trying to be justified by the law'. That shows a terrible lack of Biblical knowledge. You're the victim of a misguided indoctrination of grace/law in the church that actually says it's sinful to want to 'keep' the law and instead turn to the deceitfulness of some kind of nebulous lovey dovey feeling and words, not actions in accordance with the requirements of the law.

Your doctrine amounts to nothing less than calling 'white' 'black', and 'good' 'evil'. You would think people would know when they're doing that, but as I've learned that's hardly true.

No what I am saying is that it is the carnal mind, that looks to the letter. That those who think they can please God by the written code are no different than the pharisee. Who are going about to establish their own righteousness by the law and have not submitted to God righteousness.

I have said over and over that the love is the fulfillment of the law. But that love agape is not of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

 

[Deborah13]

The curse of the law remains for the person who turns away from Christ and does not uphold the requirements of the law through faith in Christ (the only way they can be upheld). Somehow the curse of the law became simply acknowledging what the law requires and seeking to uphold it (through faith). How ridiculous.

The curse of the law is death. God says so, plain and simple. I haven't heard anyone say the curse of the law is anything different than this.
2 Corinthians 3:5-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Why would anyone consider that they need to look to the 10 Commandments when God says He has made us adequate to be servants of the new covenant, the ministry of the Spirit which indwells us?

 

[Mitspa]

When it has not actions, lawful actions, attached to it.



Then why do people resist what the Bible says that true faith is shown in the keeping of the law, Deuteronomy 15:7-8 being the example James and John use, for fear that would be 'trying to be justified by the law', aka 'works'?

It's this love of God that enables us to forgive others of even the most terrible offenses against us.
The Word says that those who have been forgiven much, love much. Why do you think that is? When someone understands how big God's love, mercy, Grace is towards them it produces love. Now I believe what God says and if He says His grace produces love, which is what I want to have, then I am going to walk in grace.

You're preaching to the choir. Where we disagree is you say we can't judge the love of God in us by if we kept various laws in the law of Moses or not. That would amount to Mitspa's narrow, uneducated meaning of 'looking to the law'. If you're following my posts I showed this is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY false.

There is one fruit of the Spirit, it is love.

Actually, there is more than one. Love is the one that binds them all together.

That fruit gives us the strength to act in love.

That's the NEW WAY I've been talking about!

Looking at the law does not produce the fruit of the Spirit, looking at Jesus, looking at the cross does.

But I showed you in the Bible that we can tell if we've been walking in the Spirit by whether we have kept various laws of Moses. But that is INSTANTLY understood to mean 'trying to be justified by the law', hands clasped firmly over the ears refusing to hear the truth plainly spelled out for us in our NT's.

Do a little history lesson. You can thank the early church for this foolish, blind misunderstanding of law in the church. A misunderstanding that eventually became the 'faith that doesn't have works attached still saves' belief that grips the church today.

Deb nor I have taught faith without works? Just not the works of the law! But works of faith and love. Those works created In Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world, that we should walk in them.

Its called walking in the Spirit, and it brings forth fruit from the Spirit, not the flesh. Which is hypocricy. Which all those who claim to keep the written code are full of.

 

[Mitspa]

How is love somehow a command separate and unconnected to the keeping of the moral laws of Moses? How did the requirements of the law, 'do not covet', 'do not steal', etc. become 'works' and the curse of the law, while this vague, nebulous idea of love, unrelated to and little to do with the law of Moses, became the only 'thing' we have to do?

Vague, nebulous idea?? Since when is God's Love, vague and nebulous? I don't know who these people in the church are that you are speaking of or who they are getting their idea of love and grace from. God's Love is very real, powerful, all encompassing. It is by this powerful love that we are able to love God and love others with a true love that shows true faith. It's this love of God that enables us to forgive others of even the most terrible offenses against us.
The Word says that those who have been forgiven much, love much. Why do you think that is? When someone understands how big God's love, mercy, Grace is towards them it produces love. Now I believe what God says and if He says His grace produces love, which is what I want to have, then I am going to walk in grace. There is one fruit of the Spirit, it is love. That fruit gives us the strength to act in love. Looking at the law does not produce the fruit of the Spirit, looking at Jesus, looking at the cross does.

Yes here it is! Those who know Gods love, know very well that it is the LAW OF GOD. those who do not know Gods love, do not know God, and are lawless.
1 Jn 3:18-24

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Deb nor I have taught faith without works? Just not the works of the law!

I PROVED to you that faith upholds works of the law. Yet you are certain the works of faith have little to nothing to do with the law????

Which all those who claim to keep the written code are full of.

Then you are a hypocrite? Because I am sure you do not keep the law but have insisted that Jesus meant exactly what he said, "no jot or tittle....".

How is it that you don't see that your's is actually the judgmental hypocritical doctrine? I'm telling you, it's the grip of your indoctrination. Sadly, because you are sure you're so gifted and appointed to teach the church you probably won't be able to bring yourself to acknowledge the truth. It's all about the 'P' word, Mitspa (Do I have to spell it out for you?)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Deb nor I have taught faith without works? Just not the works of the law!

I PROVED to you that faith upholds works of the law. Yet you are certain the works of faith have little to nothing to do with the law????

Which all those who claim to keep the written code are full of.

Then you are a hypocrite? Because I am sure you do not keep the law but have insisted that Jesus meant exactly what he said, "no jot or tittle....".

How is it that you don't see that your's is actually the judgmental hypocritical doctrine? I'm telling you, it's the grip of your indoctrination. Sadly, because you are sure you're so gifted and appointed to teach the church you probably won't be able to bring yourself to acknowledge the truth. It's all about the 'P' word, Mitspa (Do I have to spell it out for you?).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
Those who look to the written code are not in the Spirit but are in the flesh.
So they cannot please God.

Your narrow and single-minded definition of 'looking to the law' is what is wrong here. And for some reason you refuse to be shown there is a much broader and acceptable way to 'look to the law'.

I showed you where John and James said we can know by the law if we have the righteousness of Christ and belong to the truth and have eternal life and have the love of God in us and can expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath. But you, along with much of the church, categorically dismiss any and all acknowledgment of the requirements of the law as 'trying to be justified by the law'. That shows a terrible lack of Biblical knowledge. You're the victim of a misguided indoctrination of grace/law in the church that actually says it's sinful to want to 'keep' the law and instead turn to the deceitfulness of some kind of nebulous lovey dovey feeling and words, not actions in accordance with the requirements of the law.

Your doctrine amounts to nothing less than calling 'white' 'black', and 'good' 'evil'. You would think people would know when they're doing that, but as I've learned that's hardly true.

No what I am saying is that it is the carnal mind, that looks to the letter. That those who think they can please God by the written code are no different than the pharisee. Who are going about to establish their own righteousness by the law and have not submitted to God righteousness.

I have said over and over that the love is the fulfillment of the law. But that love agape is not of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

Why do you not give me the dignity of actually hearing what I'm saying?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The curse of the law remains for the person who turns away from Christ and does not uphold the requirements of the law through faith in Christ (the only way they can be upheld). Somehow the curse of the law became simply acknowledging what the law requires and seeking to uphold it (through faith). How ridiculous.

The curse of the law is death. God says so, plain and simple. I haven't heard anyone say the curse of the law is anything different than this.
2 Corinthians 3:5-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Why would anyone consider that they need to look to the 10 Commandments when God says He has made us adequate to be servants of the new covenant, the ministry of the Spirit which indwells us?

Same for you. Why can't you hear what I'm saying?

Now, if you care to, go back and read my posts and then respond to what I'm actually saying! What you post here proves to me that despite my attempt to make the argument clear you simply are not listening.

This is not about being justified by the law. This is about knowing if I have the love of God in me or not, AS JAMES AND JOHN TEACH, by whether I have obeyed the law or not. Do I have to post the clear words of those passages again? How can this still be received by you as a claim that we look to the law to be justified (MADE righteous)?

 

[Mitspa]

The curse of the law remains for the person who turns away from Christ and does not uphold the requirements of the law through faith in Christ (the only way they can be upheld). Somehow the curse of the law became simply acknowledging what the law requires and seeking to uphold it (through faith). How ridiculous.

The curse of the law is death. God says so, plain and simple. I haven't heard anyone say the curse of the law is anything different than this.
2 Corinthians 3:5-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Why would anyone consider that they need to look to the 10 Commandments when God says He has made us adequate to be servants of the new covenant, the ministry of the Spirit which indwells us?

Same for you. Why can't you hear what I'm saying?

Now, if you care to, go back and read my posts and then respond to what I'm actually saying! What you post here proves to me that despite my attempt to make the argument clear you simply are not listening.

This is not about being justified by the law. This is about knowing if I have the love of God in me or not, AS JAMES AND JOHN TEACH, by whether I have obeyed the law or not. Do I have to post the clear words of those passages again? How can this still be received by you as a claim that we look to the law to be justified (MADE righteous)?

sorry jethro, you can insult all you like?
The strength of sin is the law! Rom 7:7-8

The letter kills but the spirit gives life.
He who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Now the law stands a witness to Christ and the Spirit.
It has no power over the believer, it CANNOT make a charge of sin, nor can it justify in any way.

 

[Mitspa]

The curse of the law remains for the person who turns away from Christ and does not uphold the requirements of the law through faith in Christ (the only way they can be upheld). Somehow the curse of the law became simply acknowledging what the law requires and seeking to uphold it (through faith). How ridiculous.

The curse of the law is death. God says so, plain and simple. I haven't heard anyone say the curse of the law is anything different than this.
2 Corinthians 3:5-8

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Why would anyone consider that they need to look to the 10 Commandments when God says He has made us adequate to be servants of the new covenant, the ministry of the Spirit which indwells us?

Yes a very good question Deb? Why would a slave desire to be a slave? Why did Israel what to return to the bondage of Egypt?
Because their hearts where not pure! Heb 3:8-10

They reject the ways of God and walk according to their own desires. Their god is there own belly. Php 3:18-20

 

[Elijah674]

Lets see? David says about Gods Law... Lord, I hate it!!

Go and read it! Psalms 19:7-13

--Elijah

 

[Mitspa]

Lets see? David says about Gods Law... Lord, I hate it!!

Go and read it! Psalms 19:7-13

--Elijah

You mean the OLD testament promotes the law and demands it to be kept by the letter? Gee that is amazing!
Now the NEW COVENAT written in the Blood of Christ is the COVENANT of the born-again believer.Heb 7:18-19
2 Cor 3:6-11

 

[Deborah13]

the thoughts of well-doing and love being enough to save the person who has those

I don't have thoughts of well-doing and loving, I have thoughts of Jesus, His love and His work on the cross. Because He says that His love (which is not feelings, comfy cozy or otherwise) edifies. His love edifies me and others that I give it to by loving them in return.

Then why do people resist what the Bible says that true faith is shown in the keeping of the law, Deuteronomy

Ok let's look at the OT. What did God say to Adam and Eve before they sinned. Thou shall NOT eat of the tree of good and evil. Why because it's the law. How do I know because Paul says that if the law had not come he wouldn't have known sin. It was written on the hearts and minds of man before the written law ever was written. He didn't want them to have this knowledge.
He said, Thou shall eat of the tree of life. Why because it is life, the Spirit, God's Spirit is life. That very Spirit is Jesus, too.

Why did satan want them to disobey the very first and really the only "Thou shall not"? Because he knew what it would bring if they ate, knowledge of good and evil, SIN.

If one wants of be obedient to God, obey the first "Thou shall Not" that God gave in the garden. Don't eat from that tree. It corrupted the first man. The law stirs up sin. As we see in the garden.

And I don't see how James tells us to judge by the Law. You'll have to show me.

He says faith without works is dead. What works, the works that are manifest in us by the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit. Judge ours by that by love, etc.

 

[Deborah13]

Lord, I hate it!!

Know one is saying Hate God's Law, that's just stupid.

 

[Mitspa]

He who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Those who do love love are lawless.

 

[francisdesales]

He who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Those who do love love are lawless.

Fufilling the requirements of the Law doesn't make one lawless!

We exceed the requirements of the Law by love, indeed. This is a legal sense here that Paul is speaking of. Love goes beyond legal requirements.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Lets see? David says about Gods Law... Lord, I hate it!!

Go and read it! Psalms 19:7-13

--Elijah

You mean the OLD testament promotes the law and demands it to be kept by the letter? Gee that is amazing!
Now the NEW COVENAT written in the Blood of Christ is the COVENANT of the born-again believer.Heb 7:18-19
2 Cor 3:6-11

Mitspa,

Could you cite me an OT Scripture that says one must keep the Law to the letter?

Do you recall that the OT Jews had cultic rituals to take care of the failings of people? Hear of Yom Kippur? Sacrificing sheep? Sin offering?

I am sure you have heard of these things. Paul is using "attorney language" when he speaks about "keeping the law perfectly". He is stating that there is something MUCH MORE WONDERFUL than the Law present.

He spoke of having ZEAL for the Law. But it was as nothing after he discovered Jesus Christ.

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

Lets see? David says about Gods Law... Lord, I hate it!!

Go and read it! Psalms 19:7-13

--Elijah

You mean the OLD testament promotes the law and demands it to be kept by the letter? Gee that is amazing!
Now the NEW COVENAT written in the Blood of Christ is the COVENANT of the born-again believer.Heb 7:18-19
2 Cor 3:6-11

Mitspa,

Could you cite me an OT Scripture that says one must keep the Law to the letter?

Do you recall that the OT Jews had cultic rituals to take care of the failings of people? Hear of Yom Kippur? Sacrificing sheep? Sin offering?

I am sure you have heard of these things. Paul is using "attorney language" when he speaks about "keeping the law perfectly". He is stating that there is something MUCH MORE WONDERFUL than the Law present.

He spoke of having ZEAL for the Law. But it was as nothing after he discovered Jesus Christ.

Regards

Cursed is everyone who continues not IN ALL THINGS WRITTEN in the book of the law to do them.
All means all, and the standard is every jot and tittle!
So the Lord goes beyond the letter to the true standard that if a man even sins in thought of heart, he has broken the law of moses. (The letter)

Yes sacrifices are part of the law, if one seeks to be justified by the law, they must keep all the law. Not just a few of the ten commandments.

 

[Mitspa]

He who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Those who do love love are lawless.

Fufilling the requirements of the Law doesn't make one lawless!

We exceed the requirements of the Law by love, indeed. This is a legal sense here that Paul is speaking of. Love goes beyond legal requirements.

Regards

Only love and that being from the Spirit fulfills the law.
So yes those who do not love are lawless.
For they do not keep any law. Old or New covenant.