[_ Old Earth _] The earth is billions of years old, except that its not.

[Guest]

Re: right

Beloved,I do not roll my eyes at God. That would be haughty.
the smilies rolled eyes at the idea that the world is billions of years old.
That is very different. Please pay attention.
What did God tell Job in the book of Job about this subject?
Where in the bible does it say we could know how God made all things,and all living creation?
Did the book of Job miss something?
The ancient words of the bible are still true for today.
There are some things that are too wonderful for us to know.
Christian scientists do not agree with you on any level,nor does true science. Your debate is not with christians who believe differently than you do,your debate is with science. :Fade-color

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Re: right

Beloved,I do not roll my eyes at God. That would be haughty.
the smilies rolled eyes at the idea that the world is billions of years old.
That is very different. Please pay attention.
What did God tell Job in the book of Job about this subject?
Where in the bible does it say we could know how God made all things,and all living creation?
Did the book of Job miss something?
The ancient words of the bible are still true for today.
There are some things that are too wonderful for us to know.
Christian scientists do not agree with you on any level,nor does true science. Your debate is not with christians who believe differently than you do,your debate is with science. :Fade-color

Where in the bible does it say that we would go to the moon? Where does it mention extrasolar planetary systems? I know science, I understand science.
You keep saying OVER AND OVER "biology disagrees with you," "science disagrees with you," "science completely supports my claims," etc. And yet you DO NOT SHOW THIS. Please show explicitly how science supports your claims or stop making them altogether.(And do not say "it's obvious when you look at science" because it is completely obvious that you have not)

 

[Guest]

Re: right

Beloved,I do not roll my eyes at God. That would be haughty.
the smilies rolled eyes at the idea that the world is billions of years old.
That is very different. Please pay attention.
What did God tell Job in the book of Job about this subject?
Where in the bible does it say we could know how God made all things,and all living creation?
Did the book of Job miss something?
The ancient words of the bible are still true for today.
There are some things that are too wonderful for us to know.
Christian scientists do not agree with you on any level,nor does true science. Your debate is not with christians who believe differently than you do,your debate is with science. :Fade-color

Where in the bible does it say that we would go to the moon? Where does it mention extrasolar planetary systems? I know science, I understand science.
You keep saying OVER AND OVER "biology disagrees with you," "science disagrees with you," "science completely supports my claims," etc. And yet you DO NOT SHOW THIS. Please show explicitly how science supports your claims or stop making them altogether.(And do not say "it's obvious when you look at science" because it is completely obvious that you have not)

:Fade-color What was the tower of Babel about? What does it tell you? Do you think it was a secret from God?
try these sites if you really want some answers: http://www.emjc3.com
http://www.creationscience.com
http://www.foolishfaith.com
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org
http://www.icr.org
http://www.absolutetruth.net/creation/

 

[Grace Alone]

Yes the word is yom. But read the verse in context. The context of the passage will clearly show how yom should be used.

Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So then you are saying: Six eons of time you shall do your work. On the 7th eon you shall rest because in 6 eons God created everything, but on the 7th Eon He rested.

Yes, this is definetely a blueprint for how we are to live our lives. It's an analogy. God demonstrated it for us in Genesis. There is no reason that 'yom' can't be used in both ways. After all a thousand years is but a day to God, but to us, on this earth, a thousand years is a very long time.

It seems to me that you have a preconcieved notion that "science" has already proven the age of the earth, and with all due respect, you are reaching and grabbing for any interpretation no matter how far fetched to reconcile that view.
Why not just simply believe God's word at face value?

btw--I do appreciate the civil dialogue you are having with me.

No preconceived notions at all. I used to believe in a young earth until I started examining it for myself. I believe that God could have created in any way that He wanted, and the evidence seems to show that He took a very long time to create the universe and our earth.

The thing is, I do believe God's word at face value. The trouble is we are not looking at it in the original language and that makes things a bit more complicated. I take the Bible just as literally as you do, believe it or not.

 

[Grace Alone]

Re: right

If we could know how old the earth is or how God formed it,then why in The book of Job did God ask Job if he knew how he made the things in the world? Job of course did not know,and how can the rest of us know?
I believe the bible is telling us the earth is only thousands of years old,not billions.

Why then are you certain that your view is 100% correct?

I believe there are some things that are too wonderful for us to know,and the things revealed to us in the bible should be taken the way they are written unless otherwise indicated.

Yes, and as I've said, I do take the Bible as it is written, however that means examining the original text and not just our English translations.

We cannot lean on our own understanding or even go by our feelings all the time because feelings change fast and they can be fickle at times.
Like Job,we cannot tell God how he made the world or the things and creation in it. The bible does tell us that in the last days many will turn to fables instead of the sound truth. :Fade-color

Do you realize that many early church fathers believed that the earth was old?

 

[Grace Alone]

Re: right

Christian scientists do not agree with you on any level,nor does true science. Your debate is not with christians who believe differently than you do,your debate is with science.

Maybe you need to do some research on the vast amount of Christian scientists and OT scholars who believe in an old earth.....

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Hooray, blue, you've just cited your sources. Now form an argument around them.

I would doubt the credibility of these sources however:
For instance http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v2i8f.htm
This little bit about the "Hubble Constant"

Astronomers compute the distance to a star based on its apparent speed, plus several assumptions. To see why this doesn't work, imagine that you were given this problem in your high school math class.
A police officer uses his radar gun to clock two cars moving away from him. One is going 40 miles per hour. The other is going 60 miles per hour. How far away are the two cars?
Your math teacher never gave you a problem like this on a test, because you can't possibly answer it. There is not enough information given for you to solve it. You would have to guess some additional information. Suppose you guess that both cars passed the police officer one hour ago. Then one car would be 40 miles away, and the other would be 60 miles away. But was your guess correct? Let's see what happens if you check your answer for consistency. Assume that the cars really are 40 and 60 miles away. How long ago would they have passed the police officer? One hour ago! It looks like you guessed correctly! What a lucky guess!
But wait. Suppose you had guessed that the cars passed the police officer two hours ago. Then they would be 80 and 120 miles away now. If the cars really are 80 and 120 miles away, how long ago would they have passed the police officer? Two hours ago! That was a correct guess, too!
Obviously, the closer car can't be both 40 and 80 miles away. Why did both guesses appear to be correct? Because circular reasoning was used. The assumed time was used to calculate the position. Then the position was used to compute the assumed time. Unless there is an arithmetic error, the results will always be consistent, no matter what time we guess.
Not only that, we assumed that both cars moved at a constant speed the entire time, and that they both passed the police officer at the same time. Perhaps the cars started at different times from different spots. That's why we can't determine where the cars are simply from their speed.

They tread so heavily on cosmology. Well to answer this, they completely misinterpret the definition of the Hubble constant(really more of a parameter than a constant). They think that it just means a speed, but this is not it at all.
Take a rubber band and cut it into one long strip, take 3 pieces of string and wrap them around the strip, two a certain distance from eachother, the third a greater distance than the distance between the first two. Now stretch the rubber band until it is twice the original length. Note how far have the first strips gone in relation to eachother. You'll notice that the third has gone twice the distance.
That is an illustration of what is meant by the hubble constant(parameter), it is not a measure of distance based on the speed at which things are receding from us, it is a measure of the elasticity of space itself.

Then the essay calls into question "assumptions" by scientists. Like the brightness of stars in determining the redshift. This is NOT what is used to determine redshift. Redshift is looking at the spectral lines created by heating hydrogen, which scientists can safely assume to be in other stars. What happens is that the spectral lines are redshifted by the fact that the universe is expanding. The further away the source is, the greater the speed of recession(note the example with the rubber band), this means a greater shift in the spectral lines of hydrogen.
This writer obviously knows nothing about cosmology. If they can't understand, or even worse if they refuse to attempt to understand something as simple as redshift they really should not be trying to make comments about it.

 

[Guest]

Re: right

Christian scientists do not agree with you on any level,nor does true science. Your debate is not with christians who believe differently than you do,your debate is with science.

Maybe you need to do some research on the vast amount of Christian scientists and OT scholars who believe in an old earth.....

:B-fly: Research and study is always good. When common sense makes the most sense there is no need to run away from it,or dabble with the opinions of every one out there with a different opinion.Some Christian scientists are also against evolution,and they show why. I believe them.
That doesn't make me a bad person.
I believe their view is much more realistic and not hard to understand,they don't have to go to extremes to make their logic fit.
Christian scientists who don't believe in evolution are just as credible than any other scientist in the world.
I cannot believe in something that is impossible to believe in.
trust God,not man made ideas.
If God didn't put it in his word,we didn't need it and still don't.
In the last days,we are told what will happen. Those who are part of the religious system in the last days will be part of the one world church that will have a form of godliness. When people begin to fall away from the faith,what faith do you think they will be falling away from?

 

[Grace Alone]

Re: right

Christian scientists do not agree with you on any level,nor does true science. Your debate is not with christians who believe differently than you do,your debate is with science.

Maybe you need to do some research on the vast amount of Christian scientists and OT scholars who believe in an old earth.....

:B-fly: Research and study is always good. When common sense makes the most sense there is no need to run away from it,or dabble with the opinions of every one out there with a different opinion.Some Christian scientists are also against evolution,and they show why. I believe them.
That doesn't make me a bad person.

I believe their view is much more realistic and not hard to understand,they don't have to go to extremes to make their logic fit.
Christian scientists who don't believe in evolution are just as credible than any other scientist in the world.

Do you understand that I do not support evolution? It seems to be a common misconception among young earthers that all old earthers believe the world was created through evolution, and that is most definetely not true.

The thing is, as Christians, we do need to be informed. How can we have common sense if we don't have enough information to draw rational conclusions. We need to go beyond our English translations and study the Scripture as it was originally written so as to guard against faulty assumptions and misunderstandings, and we need to look at the natural world, because God tells us that He reveals truth through it.

 

[Guest]

Re: right

[quote="Grace Alone":7ede2]

Christian scientists do not agree with you on any level,nor does true science. Your debate is not with christians who believe differently than you do,your debate is with science.

Maybe you need to do some research on the vast amount of Christian scientists and OT scholars who believe in an old earth.....

:B-fly: Research and study is always good. When common sense makes the most sense there is no need to run away from it,or dabble with the opinions of every one out there with a different opinion.Some Christian scientists are also against evolution,and they show why. I believe them.
That doesn't make me a bad person.

I believe their view is much more realistic and not hard to understand,they don't have to go to extremes to make their logic fit.
Christian scientists who don't believe in evolution are just as credible than any other scientist in the world.

Do you understand that I do not support evolution? It seems to be a common misconception among young earthers that all old earthers believe the world was created through evolution, and that is most definetely not true.

The thing is, as Christians, we do need to be informed. How can we have common sense if we don't have enough information to draw rational conclusions. We need to go beyond our English translations and study the Scripture as it was originally written so as to guard against faulty assumptions and misunderstandings, and we need to look at the natural world, because God tells us that He reveals truth through it.[/quote:7ede2]

:Fade-color I'm not saying other wise,I am just saying to be very careful in trusting the interpretations of man. Some scientists are not as trustworthy as others,and fallen nature of man-kind tells us how often we are mistaken. Yes,we can gather useful information about our world,creation,ect....... but the world today isn't what it appears,and there are many deceivers in this world. We could be easily led astray if we are not cautious.
I'm sorry that I misunderstood you. I apologize for that.

 

[Routerider]

Meteor impacts

I would like to pose a friendly question to those who believe the earth is under 10K years old.

We know that large meteors have nailed our planet in the *past*. If the earth is only 6 or 7 thousand years old when did all these meteors hit? How could our human race survived this bombardment?

For instance, the Chicxulub meteor is the largest meteor impact that we know of, it was 110 miles across and put a hurting on this planet [many scientists blame this meteor on the extinction of the dinos].

The fifth largest meteor hit Chad, Africa and was around 17 miles wide...didn't the ancient hebrews realize this big rock hitting their area?

 

[Guest]

Re: Meteor impacts

I would like to pose a friendly question to those who believe the earth is under 10K years old.

We know that large meteors have nailed our planet in the *past*. If the earth is only 6 or 7 thousand years old when did all these meteors hit? How could our human race survived this bombardment?

For instance, the Chicxulub meteor is the largest meteor impact that we know of, it was 110 miles across and put a hurting on this planet [many scientists blame this meteor on the extinction of the dinos].

The fifth largest meteor hit Chad, Africa and was around 17 miles wide...didn't the ancient hebrews realize this big rock hitting their area?

:B-fly: Don't believe everything you hear or you'll have all sorts of ideas that are not founded on truth pop in your head.
:angel:
http://www.absolutetruth.net
http://www.gemsworld.org
http://www.exchangedlife.com/creation/thinking.htm
http://www.rae.org

 

[Routerider]

Okay, I don't mind reading articles or whatever but could you provide specific links to articles on these sites. I took a look at two and didn't see anything obvious so I don't know what I'm supposed to be reading.

Are you suggesting that large meteors did not hit our planet?

 

[Barbarian]

The first link has an article that suggests scientists use carbon 14 dating to date dinosaur fossils. It isn't hard to look the information up on the internet, rather than just inventing stuff like that.

Such people are incomprehensible to me.

 

[Guest]

Okay, I don't mind reading articles or whatever but could you provide specific links to articles on these sites. I took a look at two and didn't see anything obvious so I don't know what I'm supposed to be reading.

Are you suggesting that large meteors did not hit our planet?

:B-fly: I am not suggesting that,I just meant that you cannot be certain about everything you hear. people do tend to add things to the truth.
We are all biased to a certain degree and if you want to believe in something bad enough you will.
It doesn't make any sense why people stay in abusive relationships,yet many people do. If you learn everything you can about it,you'll understand the cycle of abuse,yet when it gets down to it,we are all different,and we have to be careful about forming an opinion based on what we want to be true verses what really is true.

 

[GodsRebel]

It just seems like you keep tip-toeing around what he's saying. We all KNOW that you can't believe everything you hear. I think he's looking for an answer. It just seems like your avoiding THE question. I'm still trying to make heads or tails of what you're saying blueliner.....Oh and RR - I so do not have time to go into depth about my beliefs but you know me well enough to know my basic thoughts on it. Later!

Okay, I don't mind reading articles or whatever but could you provide specific links to articles on these sites. I took a look at two and didn't see anything obvious so I don't know what I'm supposed to be reading.

Are you suggesting that large meteors did not hit our planet?

:B-fly: I am not suggesting that,I just meant that you cannot be certain about everything you hear. people do tend to add things to the truth.
We are all biased to a certain degree and if you want to believe in something bad enough you will.
It doesn't make any sense why people stay in abusive relationships,yet many people do. If you learn everything you can about it,you'll understand the cycle of abuse,yet when it gets down to it,we are all different,and we have to be careful about forming an opinion based on what we want to be true verses what really is true.

 

[Guest]

:o GR,was that so hard? Why didn't you just say that in the first place?
I just didn't want him to think I was disagreeing with him,but rather there are many interpretations on the subject of meteors,and but christians do understand alot more about the earth than the secular individuals.
The Bible said stars produce sound 4000 before man found out. ( Job 38:7)
The bible said that the stars cannot be numbered 3000 years before astronomers figured it out. In the book of Genesis 22:17
The bible said that man is made from the same materials as the earth 3200 years before man found out. (Gen. 2:8,3:19,Ps.104:14)

 

[Routerider]

:o GR,was that so hard? Why didn't you just say that in the first place?
I just didn't want him to think I was disagreeing with him,but rather there are many interpretations on the subject of meteors,and but christians do understand alot more about the earth than the secular individuals.
The Bible said stars produce sound 4000 before man found out. ( Job 38:7)
The bible said that the stars cannot be numbered 3000 years before astronomers figured it out. In the book of Genesis 22:17
The bible said that man is made from the same materials as the earth 3200 years before man found out. (Gen. 2:8,3:19,Ps.104:14)

I'm not sure that too many scientists, Christian or not, debate whether huge meteors hit our earth. There's not much to debate...look at the huge craters in the ground several miles wide.
I've just never heard a good response on how a young earth populated with life could stand up to bombardment of HUGE meteors. To me I would think the earth would have been around a LONG time to be able to RESTORE itself over time. Our earth can't take meteor impacts like this so close in time, it just can't take the damage and still sustain life.

 

[Guest]

:o GR,was that so hard? Why didn't you just say that in the first place?
I just didn't want him to think I was disagreeing with him,but rather there are many interpretations on the subject of meteors,and but christians do understand alot more about the earth than the secular individuals.
The Bible said stars produce sound 4000 before man found out. ( Job 38:7)
The bible said that the stars cannot be numbered 3000 years before astronomers figured it out. In the book of Genesis 22:17
The bible said that man is made from the same materials as the earth 3200 years before man found out. (Gen. 2:8,3:19,Ps.104:14)

I'm not sure that too many scientists, Christian or not, debate whether huge meteors hit our earth. There's not much to debate...look at the huge craters in the ground several miles wide.
I've just never heard a good response on how a young earth populated with life could stand up to bombardment of HUGE meteors. To me I would think the earth would have been around a LONG time to be able to RESTORE itself over time. Our earth can't take meteor impacts like this so close in time, it just can't take the damage and still sustain life.

:B-fly: I must disagree because the earth was obviously made strong enough to take everything it has already. I doubt that age plays a major role in how strong the earth is. It has been proven that age doesn't really make things stronger,in fact age makes things weaker.
Most likely we could expect the earth to be alot younger.

 

[draper]

God created the Earth the way the Bible says he did. End of story.