[_ Old Earth _] The earth is billions of years old, except that its not.

[mh13]

Exodus 20:11 (KJV)
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[Vic C.]

Another alternative way of reconciling Genesis and science is by admitting that there can be a gap between Genesis 1:1-2 and the rest of the chapter. God created "the heavens and the earth" in verse 1. In verse 2, we see that the earth exists in a formless and void state, although there is water. The first day of creation doesn't actually start until verse 3. It could be claimed that these two verses are part of Day one, but every other creative act in the 6 day period begins with the phrase "And God said", which we don't first see until verse 3. If verse 1-2 occur before the "first day" of creation, then there is no indication how long before verse 3 they occur. It could easily be billions of years.

Aah yes... sort of like the Scopes 'Monkey Trial' case debate.

 

[Guest]

there it is again

Wrong,there are no contradictions at all,its the way you read it.

Reading the above literally certainly produces a logical contradiction. God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree, and yet he lived on for many years, according to Genesis. If this is literal, then God did not tell the truth.

[quote:8b6db]There is nothing logical about mis-understanding the bible unless you are a baby in Christ.

He says we must come to Him as a little child or not at all. But that does not remove the contradiction that results if you try to put a literal interpretation on Genesis.

As long as this world is logical to you in your mind,you cannot understand the bible.

God gave you a mind so that you might know the truth. A Christian should never be afraid of the truth.[/quote:8b6db]
:B-fly: Check out what you are saying and look into it again. You are contradicting yourself,and taking scripture out of context.
Mature christians do know the word better than the babies do,the bible tells us so,but the babies are no less saved than the mature in Christ. When I was a baby in Christ,I didn't understand things as I do now.
To have childlike innocents is excellent,and we should be like innocent children before God. Who do you know who is like an innocent child in Christ? It is great to know such good people.
You cannot take scripture out of context like you just did and not be confused.

 

[Guest]

A christian should not lean upon their own understanding.

 

[Guest]

Re: right

:o Wow!!! And you think I'm uptight?
I do believe that God gives us all gifts,and that some of us can teach.
John the Baptised preached fire and brimstone and was a much greater person than me,and I love this brother,amen.
John The Baptised called fornication and adultery what it was,and he still did not give up even when he was killed.
Did John the Baptist say he was greater than others or that he had the right to preach and baptise?
Did people challenge him and ask him if he thought he was better than others or if he thought he knew all the facts? Perhaps?
The Bible tells us we should spread the Gospel and that is a good thing.
I don't feel that I have to be in agreement with you to do that.
I have every right to have my opinion.
If you feel that you are right,that is what you feel,it doesn't change my position at all.
We all must live with the choices we make and this includes you too.
God gives all of us good gifts,but not everyone can accept it.

 

[Barbarian]

If you let Scripture speak for itself, you will see that it contradicts a YE creationist interpretation.

Such an interpretation is very recent. It was invented by the Seventh Day adventists in the last century, and spread by one of their apologists to many Christian denominations.

 

[Grace Alone]

Re: right

:o Wow!!! And you think I'm uptight?
I do believe that God gives us all gifts,and that some of us can teach.
John the Baptised preached fire and brimstone and was a much greater person than me,and I love this brother,amen.
John The Baptised called fornication and adultery what it was,and he still did not give up even when he was killed.
Did John the Baptist say he was greater than others or that he had the right to preach and baptise?
Did people challenge him and ask him if he thought he was better than others or if he thought he knew all the facts? Perhaps?
The Bible tells us we should spread the Gospel and that is a good thing.
I don't feel that I have to be in agreement with you to do that.
I have every right to have my opinion.
If you feel that you are right,that is what you feel,it doesn't change my position at all.
We all must live with the choices we make and this includes you too.
God gives all of us good gifts,but not everyone can accept it.

I assume you are referring to me.....

Zeal and verve are wonderful things to have. I am glad that you are not afraid to speak up for your beliefs. However, I see you frequently attacking individuals rather than addressing their arguements. I have also observed that you have little interest in learning from others. If you are truly interested in teaching, you are going about it the wrong way. John the Baptist did not insult others. Often times it is our greatest strengths that are also our greatest weakness. We need to be careful that we are using our gifts in the way God intended and not allow our fallen nature and pridefulness to twist them into something harmful.

Yes, we are told to spread the Gospel, however YEC is not "the Gospel." Creation is not an issue of salvation, therefore we should treat each other graciously and respectfully. In the long run, it really doesn't matter how God created the world.

Also, if you wouldn't mind addressing the questions I posted to you earlier, that would be appreciated. For your reference:

Why can't it be billions of years old? Do you feel this threatens the truth of the Bible? An old earth does not mean that God didn't create it, and it doesn't even mean that He created it using evolution.

Yes,saying the earth is billions of years old does conflict with the bible.

Tell me how? I'm not talking evolution or anything. Just tell me how the simple difference between a 6,000 year old earth and a 4.5 billion year old earth conflicts with the Bible.

Thanks!

 

[Grace Alone]

Exodus 20:11 (KJV)
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Days translates "yom" in this text as well. We do not know whether it is 24 hour days or a period of time. And we are told in Genesis, that he did indeed create heaven and earth and everything in them in this time period.

 

[Vic C.]

However, I see you frequently attacking individuals rather than addressing their arguements. I have also observed that you have little interest in learning from others. If you are truly interested in teaching, you are going about it the wrong way.

Thanks Grace...she's not the only one doing that around here recently. Thare has been a rash of posts attacking the person and not the topic at hand. Sure, a little reproach in the severest cases may be needed, but not in each and every post. Personal issues should be dealt with in PM's and said PM's should not be made public.

Thanks...

 

[Barbarian]

To some extent, people posting on discussion boards have to develop a thick skin. Blue is a little rowdy, but not offensively so. I least I don't take her that way.

 

[Grace Alone]

Thanks Grace...she's not the only one doing that around here recently. Thare has been a rash of posts attacking the person and not the topic at hand. Sure, a little reproach in the severest cases may be needed, but not in each and every post. Personal issues should be dealt with in PM's and said PM's should not be made public.

Thanks...

You're right Vic. I apologize. I suppose I can be overly sensitive about personal attacks on myself and others, and I know that it is a lot easier for all of us to say things to others over a computer screen that we would never say if we knew them in real life - myself included.

Blue, I hope you don't feel like I was attacking you. I haven't been around here much in the last couple months and I haven't had the opportunity to "get to know you." I apologize if I posted things that should have been addressed in a PM.

 

[Vic C.]

LOl, it wasn't directed to you G A. It was a reminder to all. :

 

[Grace Alone]

LOl, it wasn't directed to you G A. It was a reminder to all. :

I know. I just want to be careful about not coming across as hostile or anything. I should have used a pm and not this thread.

But, back to the topic.....

 

[mh13]

Grace Alone wrote:

Days translates "yom" in this text as well. We do not know whether it is 24 hour days or a period of time. And we are told in Genesis, that he did indeed create heaven and earth and everything in them in this time period.

Yes the word is yom. But read the verse in context. The context of the passage will clearly show how yom should be used.


Exodus 20:8-11 (KJV)
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So then you are saying: Six eons of time you shall do your work. On the 7th eon you shall rest because in 6 eons God created everything, but on the 7th Eon He rested.

It seems to me that you have a preconcieved notion that "science" has already proven the age of the earth, and with all due respect, you are reaching and grabbing for any interpretation no matter how far fetched to reconcile that view.
Why not just simply believe God's word at face value?

btw--I do appreciate the civil dialogue you are having with me.

 

[cubedbee]

Perhaps the commandment is a play on words. God created the earth in aeons, and the commandment is using the same word to speak of days. It connects the two, even though they are different time lengths. The way God names almost everyone in the Bible so that their name means something connected to their lives shows he is a fan of verbal manipulation and cleverness. He must have figured that we were smart enough to figure out the meaning of yom from context. The commandment obviously refers to our daily lives and literal days. The creation, on the other hand, must agree with our observations of this world (God is the author of Creation just as he is of the Bible), and our observation tells us that a yom in the context is billions of years. If you believe God authored both Creation and the Bible, then there is no way you can believe in young earth creation.

 

[Guest]

More to the point, if God could perfectly fake great age, it is of no practical difference to science whether or not He did that.

The results would be the same in either case.

It matters to me as a Christian, however, since God does not lie to us. quote]

:B-fly: If that were true,then there would be no creationist( YEC) Scientists but there were and still are those like Lord Kelvin.

 

[Guest]

[Blue, I hope you don't feel like I was attacking you. I haven't been around here much in the last couple months and I haven't had the opportunity to "get to know you." I apologize if I posted things that should have been addressed in a PM.

:B-fly: GA,no offense taken at all.
We all fall short of the glory,I know I have and still do.
We are all loved by God no matter what.

 

[Guest]

Re: right

Why would God use billions of years?
:roll:
Why do text books claim that the 1953 Miller- Urey experiment shows how life's building blocks may have formed on the early earth -- when conditions on the early earth were probably nothing like those used in the experiment,and the origin of life remains a mystery?

If we could know how old the earth is or how God formed it,then why in The book of Job did God ask Job if he knew how he made the things in the world? Job of course did not know,and how can the rest of us know?
I believe the bible is telling us the earth is only thousands of years old,not billions.
I believe there are some things that are too wonderful for us to know,and the things revealed to us in the bible should be taken the way they are written unless otherwise indicated.
When we have a problem with understanding something in the bible,we should not assume that the bible is in error or that the meaning is different,ect... The book of Revelation clearly shows us when it is using words in a symbolic way,and when it is literal.
The Bible appears to have some contradictions that do challenge us into further bible study,and when we study we learn that they were not really contradictions after all.
The bible inspires us to study it more.
We cannot lean on our own understanding or even go by our feelings all the time because feelings change fast and they can be fickle at times.
Like Job,we cannot tell God how he made the world or the things and creation in it. The bible does tell us that in the last days many will turn to fables instead of the sound truth. :Fade-color

 

[cubedbee]

Re: right

Why would God use billions of years?
:roll:

If I am right, you are rolling your eyes at God. You must be pretty confident of yourself.

Why do text books claim that the 1953 Miller- Urey experiment shows how life's building blocks may have formed on the early earth -- when conditions on the early earth were probably nothing like those used in the experiment,and the origin of life remains a mystery?

Irrelevant. You can believe God created each and every lifeform individually, and that doesn't change the fact that the earth is billions of years old.

If we could know how old the earth is or how God formed it,then why in The book of Job did God ask Job if he knew how he made the things in the world? Job of course did not know,and how can the rest of us know?

Job didn't know how to do calculus, so how can I know? Oh, wait a second, Job didn't have all the knowledge in the world. Who cares if Job didn't know. The collective brains of thousands upons thousands of scientist can certainly find out more about the universe God created than on man who lived thousands of years ago.

I believe the bible is telling us the earth is only thousands of years old,not billions.

But the Creation declares itself to be much older. God is the author of both, and does not cause confusion.

I believe there are some things that are too wonderful for us to know,and the things revealed to us in the bible should be taken the way they are written unless otherwise indicated.

The word used in Genesis is Yom. It is just as valid to translate this word as a literal day as it is to translate it as a vast period of time. So yes, we should take them as they are written, and not simply choose the translation which agrees with our preconceived notions.

When we have a problem with understanding something in the bible,we should not assume that the bible is in error or that the meaning is different,ect... The book of Revelation clearly shows us when it is using words in a symbolic way,and when it is literal.

And when we have a problem with understanding scientific theories, we should not assume they are in error and that all the scientists are wrong, but we must realize that we are human and can be intepreting the Bible incorrectly.

 

[Barbarian]

Why would God use billions of years?

Why use time at all? He's omnipotent, and time means nothing to Him. Maybe that's your answer.

Why do text books claim that the 1953 Miller- Urey experiment shows how life's building blocks may have formed on the early earth -- when conditions on the early earth were probably nothing like those used in the experiment,and the origin of life remains a mystery?

Actually, the evidence is very good for an early earth that is hot, hypoxic, and with the gases used in the experiment. Miller-Urrey has since been confirmed by the discovery that many of the same amino acids (and a number of others) formed naturally in the early solar system. We have actually found them in meteorites.

If we could know how old the earth is or how God formed it,then why in The book of Job did God ask Job if he knew how he made the things in the world?

Job didn't have the knowledge we do. However, God is speaking about creation here, not the actual process by which the world formed.

Job of course did not know,and how can the rest of us know?

Evidence.

I believe the bible is telling us the earth is only thousands of years old,not billions.

Beliefs are not effective against reality.

I believe there are some things that are too wonderful for us to know,and the things revealed to us in the bible should be taken the way they are written unless otherwise indicated.

God, I'm sure, made sure that whatever He wanted hidden will remain hidden, and whatever was to be accessable to us will be accessable to us.

When we have a problem with understanding something in the bible,we should not assume that the bible is in error or that the meaning is different,ect...

When the universe and the Bible seem to disagree, it is because we have misunderstood one or both of them.

The book of Revelation clearly shows us when it is using words in a symbolic way,and when it is literal.

So does Genesis. When a literal interpretation leads to a logical contradiction, we know that it's not literal.

The Bible appears to have some contradictions that do challenge us into further bible study,and when we study we learn that they were not really contradictions after all.

True. Often, it turns out to be a matter of trying to make the figurative, literal.

The bible inspires us to study it more.

True.