The "End Times"

[ezrider]

Well at least someone is talking to me about Eden.
All folks have to do is praise Eden and I go to my little speech. Edward has my number.

What you are saying (IMHO) is you want to go back in time and take the Holy Spirit gifts with you. Kind of a supercharged Adam.

The mirror you speak of has a crack. The covenant of Eden. How are you going to reset the Eden covenant? I suppose the sngel is still on guard duty.

I haven't read all of your posts with journeyman on Eden, but in his post I haven't seen where he looking to go back in time. Maybe I miss-understood your comment.

He's bringing the Garden of Eden back to believers now, because he's teaching us day by day how to live in peace with God and our fellow man, (not to mention the care of the rest of creation).
This world as it is now, will never be at peace like that, because they don't have the peace that passes all understanding,

When I read this post, I thought of Isaiah 51.


Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD:
look unto the rock whence ye are hewn,
and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Look unto Abraham your father,
and unto Sarah that bare you:
for I called him alone,
and blessed him, and increased him.
For the LORD shall comfort Zion:
he will comfort all her waste places;
and he will make her wilderness like Eden,
and her desert like the garden of the LORD;
joy and gladness shall be found therein,
thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Well, it is not now legal which was my original statement. The Jews in Israel are not doing anything close to this. If you want to believe they are capable of this in the future, that is, of course, your choice. But it is extremely doubtful. In any case, no indication of anything close to this today. None at all. Surely you can admit this, right?

The end of the age of the Mosaic law has passed yes. You need to see which age was ended. The Mosaic law is no longer binding on believers. You do not need to agree with my view at all. But it would be really good if you understood the view you do not believe. A wise man knows what he believes and why and what he does not believe and why.

Now, I told them when they asked me about being the Preterist moderator, that my view on that is not settled and I cannot answer all questions. I am open to learning in this regard. The question on the resurrection is one of those. I do not know. There was a resurrection at the resurrection of Jesus, the Bible says so. Then Revelation takes about the first and second resurrection in terms that neither have or had happened at that point in time. So I do not know yet.

Seeing the fulfillment of prophesy in some matters does not mean one understands all about it. In fact, it is probably easier to talk with those who admit they are unsure of some details than those who can, in scrupulous detail with mountains of isolated scattered verses, lay out their theology. That later group have already decided and so not want to be bothered with the details that do not match, in my experience.

You might doubt Jesus's words but I don't.

Matthew 10:23 KJV: But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I'm very surprised you don't believe the saints in Israel will suffer persecution with all that's written about that persecution in the Bible.
You even doubt Jesus's words about the persecution which takes place before his second coming.

As for the resurection. You believe the time of great distress written of by Daniel and quoted by Jesus took place in 70 AD. According to Daniel, it is at this time of great distress that those who sleep in the dust of the earth awake.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You might doubt Jesus's words but I don't.

I actually believe Jesus's words which said it would all happen before that generation passed away. I believe he spoke the truth and it was so. I am not the one doubting the words of Jesus.

Matthew 10:23 KJV: But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I'm very surprised you don't believe the saints in Israel will suffer persecution with all that's written about that persecution in the Bible.
You even doubt Jesus's words about the persecution which takes place before his second coming.

The persecution of the saints happened in the first century at the hands of the Jews primarily and that is what it actually says in the Bible. Shall I say I am surprised you do not believe that the books of acts is true? Or the letters of Paul that describe the persecution of the Christians at the hands of the Jews? You do not believe that happened but is for the future?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Problem is that as stated, many preterists do believe that the "end" came at A.D. 70. The preterist position is highly diverse. So it can be difficult to characterize and address.

Well, the end of the age, not the end of the world. But they can ask me what I think for starters. The Millennialists don't agree either.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I actually believe Jesus's words which said it would all happen before that generation passed away. I believe he spoke the truth and it was so. I am not the one doubting the words of Jesus.

The persecution of the saints happened in the first century at the hands of the Jews primarily and that is what it actually says in the Bible. Shall I say I am surprised you do not believe that the books of acts is true? Or the letters of Paul that describe the persecution of the Christians at the hands of the Jews? You do not believe that happened but is for the future?

I believe there were a few saints persecuted by the Jews in the first century. But Jesus stated that they would be persecuted from city to city till he comes.
I got news for you. Jesus has not returned yet. Jesus didn't not return in 70 AD. The dead were not raised in 70 AD. In fact, nothing much at all changed in 70 AD.
Not a single person reported seeing Jesus come in 70 AD.

Matthew 10:23 KJV: But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Gerally the persecution of the saints in the first century came at the hands of the romans.Not the Jews.

 

[ezrider]

So if all OT prophecies are already fulfilled, then where are right now? In the Millenium?

Why isn't Satan bound if this be the Millenium?

Because it's the end of the millenium, and Satan has already been released from the pit to go forth and deceive the nations?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe there were a few saints persecuted by the Jews in the first century. But Jesus stated that they would be persecuted from city to city till he comes.

A few? The report out of the NT is not a few. They were persecuted and hounded from city to city. The acts of Nero were really bad, pretty much described in Revelation and that was not a few.

I got news for you. Jesus has not returned yet. Jesus didn't not return in 70 AD. The dead were not raised in 70 AD. In fact, nothing much at all changed in 70 AD.
Not a single person reported seeing Jesus come in 70 AD.

Matthew 10:23 KJV: But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The term "coming in the clouds" is an OT term that means judgement, Gods judgement on a people that ends their lives as they know it. And that is what happened. Everything changed in 70 AD. The practice of the jewish faith which the Christians were still tied to to some degree was over. Done. Never to be practiced as Moses taught it in human history. It was a major change.

The NT says some saints were resurrected out of the grave and walked in the city. Do you believe that? Do you want the scripture? I am not saying that was the resurrection and admitted that is not clear to me. But if you think nothing at all happened you are unaware of what happened.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

A few? The report out of the NT is not a few. They were persecuted and hounded from city to city. The acts of Nero were really bad, pretty much described in Revelation and that was not a few.

The term "coming in the clouds" is an OT term that means judgement, Gods judgement on a people that ends their lives as they know it. And that is what happened. Everything changed in 70 AD. The practice of the jewish faith which the Christians were still tied to to some degree was over. Done. Never to be practiced as Moses taught it in human history. It was a major change.

The NT says some saints were resurrected out of the grave and walked in the city. Do you believe that? Do you want the scripture? I am not saying that was the resurrection and admitted that is not clear to me. But if you think nothing at all happened you are unaware of what happened.

Where exactly in the Bible does it show the resurection taking place in 70 AD since you are claiming that's when it took place?

I'm sure since many of the books in the NT were written after 70 AD, it would be in at least one of them.

PS
The practice of the Jewish faith is ongoing. Mainly in Israel, and there is an effort to stop the dead of Christianity in Israel. Its doing pretty well. Only 2 percent of Israel is christ and most of those are Arabs.
There have been efforts to pass laws forbidding preaching the gospel as well as converting to Christianity.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Gerally the persecution of the saints in the first century came at the hands of the romans.Not the Jews.

Well, in the NT it was the Jews. You can read that Paul appealed to Nero for protection and he was sent to Rome and was released. The Romans protected the christians until Nero decided to blame them for the fire in Rome. You can read about the books of acts and all of the deaths were due to the Jews. I know it is not politically correct to say that but it is the truth. The Romans had no reason to persecute the Christians until Nero towards the end of the 60s.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Where exactly in the Bible does it show the resurection taking place in 70 AD since you are claiming that's when it took place?

That is not what I said. I said the NT says some saints were resurrected and were seen in the city. Now you can believe that account in the Bible or not. I believe it. I did not give it a name.

I'm sure since many of the books in the NT were written after 70 AD, it would be in at least one of them.

It is thought that they were mostly written before then. Paul was killed in 60 something and so could not have possibly written his letters after he was beheaded. The gospels were likely written also before since they are referred to in other writings. The internal evidence as well places them before 70 AD. The writings appeal to the reader to check out eye witnesses who were still living when the pieces were written, for example.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

That is not what I said. I said the NT says some saints were resurrected and were seen in the city. Now you can believe that account in the Bible or not. I believe it. I did not give it a name.

It is thought that they were mostly written before then. Paul was killed in 60 something and so could not have possibly written his letters after he was beheaded. The gospels were likely written also before since they are referred to in other writings. The internal evidence as well places them before 70 AD. The writings appeal to the reader to check out eye witnesses who were still living when the pieces were written, for example.

So you agree, the time of distress written by Daniel and quoted by Jesus has in fact not taken place as of yet?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

PS
The practice of the Jewish faith is ongoing. Mainly in Israel, and there is an effort to stop the dead of Christianity in Israel. Its doing pretty well. Only 2 percent of Israel is christ and most of those are Arabs.
There have been efforts to pass laws forbidding preaching the gospel as well as converting to Christianity.

The Jews cannot practice their faith as Moses did. I never said there are no jews practicing a kind of judiasm, just not the Mosaic laws they were taught as the sacrifice is not possible. Yes, I know Israel is very anti-Christian. Its a mystery why the church is so supportive of a nation that openly forbids the spreading of the Gospel. They can persecute the christians all they want and the American christians send them money to do so.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you agree, the time of distress written by Daniel and quoted by Jesus has in fact not taken place as of yet?

That is also not what I said. The times of great tribulation the world has never seen and never will see again happened in those years leading up to 70 AD. Fulfills Daniel and Matt 24 and Revelation, that part of that.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The Jews cannot practice their faith as Moses did. I never said there are no jews practicing a kind of judiasm, just not the Mosaic laws they were taught as the sacrifice is not possible. Yes, I know Israel is very anti-Christian. Its a mystery why the church is so supportive of a nation that openly forbids the spreading of the Gospel. They can persecute the christians all they want and the American christians send them money to do so.

Sure Israelis can practice thier faith as Moses.
They can do that anywhere including the wilderness if they want.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sure Israelis can practice thier faith as Moses.
They can do that anywhere including the wilderness if they want.

Where can they offer the sacrifice required at the temple built on where now stands the Dom of the Rock belonging to the Muslims? They were required to go to the temple on the holidays and offer the required sacrifices. They were not allowed to celebrate the passover in the wilderness. Sorry but there were rules on where and when.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Where can they offer the sacrifice required at the temple built on where now stands the Dom of the Rock belonging to the Muslims? They were required to go to the temple on the holidays and offer the required sacrifices. They were not allowed to celebrate the passover in the wilderness. Sorry but there were rules on where and when.

There is much emerging evidence the Holy of Holies was located at the Dome of the Spirits and not at the Dome of the Rock.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is much emerging evidence the Holy of Holies was located at the Dome of the Spirits and not at the Dome of the Rock.

I sincerely doubt this. In any case, the Jews cannot offer the sacrifices in manner described in any case.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

That is also not what I said. The times of great tribulation the world has never seen and never will see again happened in those years leading up to 70 AD. Fulfills Daniel and Matt 24 and Revelation, that part of that.

If that is so, then you also must believe the resurection took place at that time as that is what Daniel stated would take place at that time. Here is what Daniel says would take place at the time of the end which according to you took place in 70 AD.

Daniel 11:40 - The King Who Exalts Himself

At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships, invading many countries and sweeping through them like a flood.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:41 - The King Who Exalts Himself

He will also invade the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall. But these will be delivered from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the leaders of the Ammonites.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:42 - The King Who Exalts Himself

He will extend his power over many countries, and not even the land of Egypt will escape.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:43 - The King Who Exalts Himself

He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and over all the riches of Egypt, and the Libyans and Cushites will also submit to him.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:44 - The King Who Exalts Himself

But news from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will go out with great fury to destroy many and devote them to destruction.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:45 - The King Who Exalts Himself

He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain, but he will meet his end with no one to help him.

biblehub.com

Daniel 12:1 - Michael's Deliverance and the End Times

At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will...

biblehub.com

Daniel 12:2 - Michael's Deliverance and the End Times

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

biblehub.com

So according to the prophecy of Daniel, everyone found written would be delivered including those who sleep in the dust at this time of distress. Do you claim that all this took place AT THAT TIME?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Where can they offer the sacrifice required at the temple built on where now stands the Dom of the Rock belonging to the Muslims? They were required to go to the temple on the holidays and offer the required sacrifices. They were not allowed to celebrate the passover in the wilderness. Sorry but there were rules on where and when.

You said they couldn't observe thier faith as Moses. Moses didn't make sacrifices at a temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If that is so, then you also must believe the resurection took place at that time as that is what Daniel stated would take place at that time. Here is what Daniel says would take place at the time of the end which according to you took place in 70 AD.

Daniel 11:40 - The King Who Exalts Himself

At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships, invading many countries and sweeping through them like a flood.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:41 - The King Who Exalts Himself

He will also invade the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall. But these will be delivered from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the leaders of the Ammonites.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:42 - The King Who Exalts Himself

He will extend his power over many countries, and not even the land of Egypt will escape.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:43 - The King Who Exalts Himself

He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and over all the riches of Egypt, and the Libyans and Cushites will also submit to him.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:44 - The King Who Exalts Himself

But news from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will go out with great fury to destroy many and devote them to destruction.

biblehub.com

Daniel 11:45 - The King Who Exalts Himself

He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain, but he will meet his end with no one to help him.

biblehub.com

Daniel 12:1 - Michael's Deliverance and the End Times

At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will...

biblehub.com

Daniel 12:2 - Michael's Deliverance and the End Times

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

biblehub.com

So according to the prophecy of Daniel, everyone found written would be delivered including those who sleep in the dust at this time of distress. Do you claim that all this took place AT THAT TIME?

I do not see that the last verse has to follow immediately in time from the previous. This is the translation I have that your version is missing:

1...At that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. (No christians died in the fall of Jerusalem. They were all delivered.)

2 And many of those who sleep in the dusts of the earth shall awake....

No "at that time" before the resurrection verse. The "at that time" is before the delivering the people verse. The timing for the Resurrection is not immediate. The Resurrection is the end of this age, I think and is not connected to the trouble Daniel described.