The "End Times"

[Goldwing]

How can the law of Moses be binding upon mankind if it was abolished?

My friend, they are separate Laws. Post 592, I explain the difference. I think most followers on the platform would agree.

No, the hand written law by Moses, was abolished at the cross, they were temporary which is why they were not written by God, and on parchment, and placed in the side of the Arch, separate from the perfect Law, written by God in His own hand writing on stone, placed under the mercy seat. That Law, with all ten commandments is biding on mankind, which no man can keep without sinning, which is why we need God's grace. And we will receive God's grace through our faith, which will be evident by our works/deeds. Make sense?

Question, How does God define sin, if not for His moral Law/ten commandments?

Question, You seem to indicate they are done away with because they are written on a believers heart. If that were the case, (which it is not) as a believer have you any propensity toward sin? Of course you do, and so does every believer. Which is why we need grace, because in our fallen nature it is impossible to keep His commandments at all times.

They are God's covenant promise that some day, when we the saints are changed at the time of Christ return, God will give us a new hart/unfallen nature and the commandments will be written on our hearts. Until that time we ask the Holy Spirit to enable us through the sanctification process to become more compliant, that we might honor God and His perfect moral law.

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[JLB]

My friend, they are separate Laws.

What do you mean by “they” are separate laws.

I am discussing the law of Moses.

I thought we agreed it was abolished at the cross?

Do you agree?

Question, How does God define sin, if not for His moral Law/ten commandments?

Sin is defined as lawlessness.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4


There are many more commandments than 10, while at the same time we must address the Sabbath.

Example: 10 Commandments emphasized —

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Sins not mentioned in the 10 Commandments -

• fornication
• uncleanness
• lewdness
• sorcery (witchcraft; drugs pharmekia
• hatred
• contentions
• jealousies
• outbursts of wrath
• selfish ambitions
• dissensions
• heresies
• drunkenness
• revelries, and the like;

Do you believe the Church is under obligation to observe the Sabbath as the law of Moses required?


In the New Covenant, His laws and commandments are written on our heart and mind, in which we are called to walk after the Spirit, rather than the desires of our flesh.




JLB

 

[Oseas]

What matters is the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD, and when was made flesh chose for He Himself the NAME of JESUS. This is the NAME of GOD after He had been made flesh. Even Him said: All the prophets and the Law prophesied until John -John the Baptist, of course.

Romans 2:v.12and14
12 - As many as have sinned without law(the Gentile peoples) shall also PERISH without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (the Jewish people) shall be JUDGED by the law;
14 - For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Whata prevails is the Word of GOD, as LITERALLY above; speculations or opinions are good for nothing, and in the way the Devil likes. Let us cast him into the bottomless pit as soon as possible.

 

[Goldwing]

What do you mean by “they” are separate laws.

I am discussing the law of Moses.

I thought we agreed it was abolished at the cross?

Do you agree?




Sin is defined as lawlessness.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4


There are many more commandments than 10, while at the same time we must address the Sabbath.

Example: 10 Commandments emphasized —

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Sins not mentioned in the 10 Commandments -

• fornication
• uncleanness
• lewdness
• sorcery (witchcraft; drugs pharmekia
• hatred
• contentions
• jealousies
• outbursts of wrath
• selfish ambitions
• dissensions
• heresies
• drunkenness
• revelries, and the like;

Do you believe the Church is under obligation to observe the Sabbath as the law of Moses required?


In the New Covenant, His laws and commandments are written on our heart and mind, in which we are called to walk after the Spirit, rather than the desires of our flesh.




JLB

JLB. I answered your first question earlier with the following, did you not read it?

No, the hand written law by Moses, was abolished at the cross, they were temporary which is why they were not written by God, and on parchment, and placed in the side of the Arch, separate from the perfect Law, written by God in His own hand writing on stone, placed under the mercy seat. That Law, with all ten commandments is biding on mankind, [that would include the church] which no man can keep without sinning, which is why we need God's grace. And we will receive God's grace through our faith, which will be evident by our works/deeds. Make sense?

I previously asked, How does God define sin, if not for His moral Law/ten commandments? You answered with comments made by Paul. Why would you do that, are not the words of God written in stone more authoritative?

Question, You seem to indicate they are done away with because they are written on a believers heart. If that were the case, (which it is not) as a believer have you any propensity toward sin?????????

Of course you do, and so does every believer. Which is why we need grace, because in our fallen nature it is impossible to keep His commandments at all times.

They are God's covenant promise that some day, when we the saints are changed at the time of Christ return, God will give us a new hart/unfallen nature and the commandments will be written on our hearts. Until that time we ask the Holy Spirit to enable us through the sanctification process to become more compliant, that we might honor God and His perfect moral law.



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[Goldwing]

Sin is defined as lawlessness.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

JLB, your answer is correct, the text proves it. However, lawlessness can not exist without a law in place, therefore, which law is being broken for sin to occur?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Journeyman, been reading through this thread again, and you question got my attention. Let me share some insights that perhaps will satisfy your question, "why does salvation come now." Following is a commentary on Rev.12:7-12. (Bear in mind, each event within prophecy gets time stamped when it is fulfilled.)

Rev. 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

{7} There was a war in Heaven. Michael (the name which Jesus used before coming to Earth as a human)39 and His angels fought against the great red dragon and his angels.

A few hours before His death, Jesus made the following statement: “ ‘Father, glorify your name!’ Then a voice came from Heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’ The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, ‘This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.’ ”40 Jesus knew that Lucifer would be permanently cast out of Heaven if the Father approved His sacrifice. When Jesus said, “Now is the time for judgment on this world. . . ,” He meant that the time had come for the Father to determine who should be the rightful prince of this world. When Jesus said, “now the prince of this world will be driven out,” Jesus predicted the war described in verse 7. This war occurred on Resurrection Sunday.

Rev. 12:8, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
God did not destroy the devil and his angels on Resurrection Sunday because His purpose for them was not finished. God permitted open warfare in Heaven between Lucifer and his angels and Jesus and his angels for a significant reason. The Father wanted to make sure that among the holy angels, no sympathy for the once adored and highly exalted Lucifer remained. This war was not a test of faith as the first war had been.41 This war produced a revelation. The Father allowed the battle to last long enough to see where each angel firmly stood. After 4,000 years, there was no change. Those loyal to Lucifer defended their evil leader and remained unchanged. Those loyal to Michael also remained unchanged.

Rev. 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

{9} Once the loyalty of the angels was confirmed, the devil and his angels were once again thrown out of Heaven, at the speed of lightning.42 The Father threw the devil and his angels into an earthly abyss and confined them there.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Ever since Resurrection Sunday, the devil and his angels have been bound to this planet, limited to the dimensions of the spirit realm (represented to John as the abyss). Originally, the great red dragon and his angels were hurled out of Heaven because of defiance. Four thousand years later, their defiance remains unchanged. The great red dragon is that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled into the Earth, and his angels with him.

Rev. 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation", and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

{10} After the war in Heaven ended, I heard a loud voice in Heaven say: “Now that salvation has been paid in full and the devil has been defeated, the gospel of Jesus Christ and His coming kingdom will advance with clarity and power throughout the Earth. Lucifer’s position as “the prince of Earth” has been honorably overthrown by the perfect life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The accuser of our human brothers, who accuses them before God day and night, has been hurled down and his endless arguments and accusations in Heaven against repentant sinners have been silenced.”45

Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

{11} The voice continued: “Even though our brothers on Earth are sinners, they are not hopeless or defeated. Lucifer’s claim that God cannot legally justify sinners has been silenced because Jesus paid the price for every sinner who surrenders to the directives of the Holy Spirit and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Through faith in Christ, repentant sinners are covered with Christ’s righteousness (justified as though they never sinned) in God’s sight.”46

When a person surrenders to the directives of the Holy Spirit, he honors and upholds the Word of God at all costs, and the word of his testimony proves that he is loyal to God, even willing to die for Him if necessary.

Rev. 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

{12} “Therefore, rejoice holy angels, all of you who live in Heaven because atonement for sinners has been paid in full, but woe to God’s people on Earth for the devil’s wrath is upon you! He is filled with fury, because he now knows that he will fail miserably.

* Note - At the fifth trumpet, the devil and his angels will be permitted to exit the abyss. Therefore, a time is coming when the devil and his angels will physically appear before the people of Earth.43 At the Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the bodies used by the devil and his angels and Jesus will return them to the abyss (spirit realm).44

Taken from: Jesus’ Final Victory, pg. 301

So, a more direct answer to your question is this. Until Christ came and lived a life that fulfilled the requirements of the ten commandments, (written by His own finger,) then was willing to die, the second death, (which the law required if broken,) salvation would not be possible for fallen man. All of the animal sacrifices mandatory before the cross, pointed to the death of Christ, and was based on faith that Christ would fulfill the Fathers requirement that He,Christ, would be The Lamb of God/the Father. On resurrection Sunday, the words, "Now is come salvation" (Rev.12:10,) was fulfilled.
Had the Father not excepted the life of Christ as fulfilling the requirements of the ten commandments, Christ blood would not have atoned for fallen man, and the Father would not have raised up Christ, and fallen man would have been without a savor, thus the Fathers plan of salvation would have failed, and man would have had to atone for their own sins and die the second death.

Hope this makes sense and answers your question.

Hello Goldwing.
I answered my own question. My point was salvation comes when people truly repent and live by faith in God,

And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, for so much as he also is a son of Abraham. Lk.19:9

Salvation has been available since Asam and Eve. The Book of Revelation shows revelations. It reveals things to believers. They confess salvation has come because Christ conquered death, but he was above death to begin with. That's what he wants us to know. That's a revelation or unveiling of Jesus Christ.
Because of who he was, is and always will be, it is impossible for Christ to be punished in place of the guilty. Christ willingly allowed himself to be sinned against, as our Father does daily. Our Lord patiently endured sin against himself, being willing to forgive anyone who would later repent, as our Father does daily. He's the image of God on earth.

That's the thing with satan being cast from heaven. Our Savior cast him out before he was born on earth,

And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Lk.10:18

This world is an image of the heavenlies, where we, like the angels before us, cast satan out by the life of Jesus.

 

[JLB]

JLB, greetings. To answer your question, No the Lord did not fight the Romans in 70 A.D. because He sent them to destroy the City. God was patient with Israel rebellion for nearly fifteen centuries. Israel's last change to repent and the end of God's patience with them was spelled out in the seventy weeks/490yrs., of Dan.9. That time period ended 3.5 yrs. after they crucified Christ, which was 33 A.D. The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, was there punishment.

However, had they repented, during the 490 yrs., and excepted Jesus as the, Lamb of God, the Son of God, the Anointed One, and then offered Him up on the brazen alter, in the sanctuary, as the, Lamb of God, to atone for fallen man. The Father would have raised Jesus up and He would have begun setting up His earthly Kingdom.

I'm sure this will blow your mind since this is probably the first time you ever heard of such a thing. But then again wouldn't things have been different if Israel had been obedient to God. How so? Consider the words of John the baptist, he declared repentance, "for the Kingdom of God is at hand." This was at the start of the last seven yrs. of the 490 yrs. of probation time for Israel. Had Israel repented God's plan was for Jesus to set up His earthly kingdom during His first advent, Zec.14, would have been fulfilled.

Still hard to believe? Consider this, the whole of chapter 14, is entitled in the NIV as, The Lord Comes and Reigns." In reading the entire chapter, you note there is no similarity in the events described there with what is described in the prophecies of Rev. and Dan. Why? Because God gave Daniel and John only, prophecy based on Israel's decision to reject Jesus as the, "Lamb of God." In the case of Daniel's prophecies in Dan. 9:24, we read:

V24 "seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put and end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to being in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."

What did God mean when He said, to seal up vision and prophecy? He was telling the nation of Israel, that if they repented and turned back to Him in obedience the prophecies in Daniel would not be implemented. If Bible students do not understand what I've just explained to you and they mix the prophecies of the Old testament with those of Daniel and Revelation, what you end up with is a mixture of two plans, plan A, if you will, what God had originally planed for Israel as the trustees of His gospel, and plan B, that whosoever will, will be the trustees of His Gospel. The plans for setting up His earthly Kingdom is different in each plan.

Pray this appeals to your common sense.

So you agree that Zechariah 14 refers to the future Day of the Lord in which the Lord fights against those armies that surround Jerusalem ?

 

[JLB]

No, the hand written law by Moses, was abolished at the cross, they were temporary which is why they were not written by God, and on parchment, and placed in the side of the Arch, separate from the perfect Law, written by God in His own hand writing on stone, placed under the mercy seat.

Again, I ask you, do you believe the Sabbath is to be observed by the Church as it was under the law of Moses?


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB, your answer is correct, the text proves it. However, lawlessness can not exist without a law in place, therefore, which law is being broken for sin to occur?

The law of Christ.


Moses was the mediator of the law that was added and therefore it was called the “law of Moses”.


Jesus Christ is the Mediator of the New (renewed) Covenant as so it is called the law of Christ.


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2


Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.
He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”
Isaiah 42:1-4



The New Testament refers to “His Commandments“ not the
10 Commandments.


The weekly Sabbath points us to the rest to come, in the age to come, in which we will reign with Christ for 1000 years, the prophetic “seventh day” of rest.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Question, You seem to indicate they are done away with because they are written on a believers heart.

No they are written on our heart for us to obey.

We have received them by faith the way Abraham did, directly from the Lord, which is how Adam (mankind) was supposed to receive them in the garden.


Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:3-4


”I know Him” is the biblical way of saying “I have eternal life”.

Knowing Him = Eternal life


Keeping His Commandments is the biblical definition of love; loving God and loving our fellow man.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Breaking His Commandments is the way of hate.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives...
Zechariah 14:1-4

Key Verse --

• Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

Question:

Did the Lord fight the Roman soldiers in 70 AD ?

JLB

Actually my sincere friend, our Lord defeated all by conquering death. There are two things we should consider when reading Zech.14.
One is, we wrestle not against flesh and blood (Eph.6:12). The war is raging now.
and two, the word Jesus spoke will judge everyone at the last day (Jn.12:48). People assume Zech.14 means that when Jesus comes "the second time", he's going to fry people, but we're reading that into the text, because it's actually the word of our Lord that does the burning. This can be viewed as true in two ways.
One is that the first appearing of Christ revealed to us from a spiritual perspective what our own flesh looks like in his presence.
Two is simply the end of the battle in a human sense, which would be the return of Christ, but it's the end of the war going on now regardless.

 

[JLB]

Actually my sincere friend, our Lord defeated all by conquering death. There are two things we should consider when reading Zech.14.
One is, we wrestle not against flesh and blood (Eph.6:12). The war is raging now.
and two, the word Jesus spoke will judge everyone at the last day (Jn.12:48). People assume Zech.14 means that when Jesus comes "the second time", he's going to fry people, but we're reading that into the text, because it's actually the word of our Lord that does the burning. This can be viewed as true in two ways.
One is that the first appearing of Christ revealed to us from a spiritual perspective what our own flesh looks like in his presence.
Two is simply the end of the battle in a human sense, which would be the return of Christ, but it's the end of the war going on now regardless.

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12




JLB

 

[Goldwing]

So you agree that Zechariah 14 refers to the future Day of the Lord in which the Lord fights against those armies that surround Jerusalem ?

What did I say, to make you think that?

Christ conquered death, but he was above death to begin with...,Because of who he was, is and always will be,

Yes, Christ was divinity, not subject to death. However, to really appreciate the magnitude of God's love and the expense of the Fathers plan of salvation, consider the following:

When the Father revealed the plan to save fallen man to Jesus after the fall, Jesus agreed to all His terms. This required Jesus to give up His divinity, take on the form of man, live a perfect life without sin, and die the second death, (which there would be no resurrection.) for the sins of fallen man. If Jesus could do all of this, then the Father would raise Him up, (if he failed Christ would have remained dead, and mankind would have been without a redeemer) reinstate Him as the Prince of this earth, (Resurrection Sunday) and at the appointed time, (1798), give Him sovereign power/all power, promoting Him to King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. In this capacity Christ was given the authority to judge all of mankind, and to carry out all the events the Father has predetermined to bring sin to it's conclusion.

The Father plan in all of this is to show the love the God Head has for it's creation, and to reveal to mankind that Jesus, who looked like, walked like, and suffered like us, is really a deity equal with Him.

To think that Christ was unable to die, cheapens the price that Christ paid to redeem us.

If Christ did not die the second death, (death without any chance of resurrection) then He didn't pay the penalty for sin.

It is impossible for Christ to be punished in place of the guilty.

I hope you will reconsider that after you read the above.

Christ willingly allowed himself to be sinned against, as our Father does daily. Our Lord patiently endured sin against himself, being willing to forgive anyone who would later repent, as our Father does daily.

Your statement IMHO, falls short of understanding the issue of sin. This statement will blow your mind. Ready? Sin is never forgiven, however, the sinner is. The earthly sanctuary teaches, that the sinner offered up a perfect sacrifice, after confessing his sins, (representing Christ death to come) the blood of the sacrifice was placed on the horns of the brazen altar, allowed the gilt of the sinner to remain there, while the sinner walked away guiltless. Throughout the year the altar collected blood/guilt from all who offered up their sacrifices. On the day of Atonement, the blood/ guilt was removed from the horns of the altar and placed on the head of the scape goat and the sanctuary was cleansed.

This is the process: To perfect goats were presented to the high priest, one was chosen to pay the penalty for sin, the other was left to bear the consequence of sin. The sacrificial goat paid the penalty for sin as a sin offering(Lev. 16:9) and the other goat received the consequence of sin. This goat called the scape goat, was taken into the wilderness to die after the sins of the sanctuary were paced upon his head. (Lev.16:22) The first goat pointed forward to the death of Christ. The second/scapegoat symbolizes the death of Satan. Satan will not only receive the penalty and consequence for his own sins, but he must suffer the consequences of all the sins committed by the redeemed. God requires complete atonement for all sins. Therefore, God does not forgive sin, but sinners are.

 

[Goldwing]

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:3-4

But didn't Christ teach and keep the seventh day sabbath as did His disciples?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12
JLB

I understand how it sounds, but look at it from the spiritual perspective. The appearance of Christ exposesd how people are dead on their feet already,
It's the same principle where during the "messianic era, "the child will die at a hundred years" etc. It doesn't mean people will live longer. It means life is short. The knowledge of Christ shows us how life in this world is like a fading flower.
The rest of the text in Zech.14 about keeping the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem is truly a current reality, because we now live in temporary shelters, while giving thanks to God as we bring in the harvest.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What did I say, to make you think that?
When the Father revealed the plan to save fallen man to Jesus after the fall, Jesus agreed to all His terms. This required Jesus to give up His divinity,

No my friend it didn't. The Bible specifically says,

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God Phil.2:6

He means on earth, as the express image of God, with the exact same authority to pronounce judgment on sinners anytime he chose. Instead he behaved as a servant. The "likeness of men" is sinful. He appeared as any sinner from the outside, but wasn't one.
I'd also like to share that Jesus never had anything "revealed to himself by his Father, because they are perfectly one in mind.

take on the form of man, live a perfect life without sin, and die the second death, (which there would be no resurrection.) for the sins of fallen man. If Jesus could do all of this, then the Father would raise Him up, (if he failed Christ would have remained dead, and mankind would have been without a redeemer) reinstate Him as the Prince of this earth, (Resurrection Sunday) and at the appointed time, (1798), give Him sovereign power/all power, promoting Him to King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. In this capacity Christ was given the authority to judge all of mankind, and to carry out all the events the Father has predetermined to bring sin to it's conclusion.

The Father plan in all of this is to show the love the God Head has for it's creation, and to reveal to mankind that Jesus, who looked like, walked like, and suffered like us, is really a deity equal with Him.

To think that Christ was unable to die, cheapens the price that Christ paid to redeem us.

Jesus always was the King of kings and Lord of all. Knowing this helps in understanding the "reign" of Christ is of patience toward the ungodly, but not without judgement if repentance is refused.

If Christ did not die the second death, (death without any chance of resurrection) then He didn't pay the penalty for sin.

Dear believer, Jesus did not pay the penelty for sin. They said he was paying the penalty for sin,

You have heard the blasphemy! What is your verdict?" They all condemned him as deserving death. Mk.14:64

The truth is, our Lord long suffered sin against himself, yet was still willing to forgive those who realized their sinful conduct toward him and truly wanted forgivness. That's the gospel.

I hope you will reconsider that after you read the above.

Your statement IMHO, falls short of understanding the issue of sin. This statement will blow your mind. Ready? Sin is never forgiven, however, the sinner is.The earthly sanctuary teaches, that the sinner offered up a perfect sacrifice, after confessing his sins, (representing Christ death to come) the blood of the sacrifice was placed on the horns of the brazen altar, allowed the gilt of the sinner to remain there, while the sinner walked away guiltless. Throughout the year the altar collected blood/guilt from all who offered up their sacrifices. On the day of Atonement, the blood/ guilt was removed from the horns of the altar and placed on the head of the scape goat and the sanctuary was cleansed.
This is the process: To perfect goats were presented to the high priest, one was chosen to pay the penalty for sin, the other was left to bear the consequence of sin. The sacrificial goat paid the penalty for sin as a sin offering(Lev. 16:9) and the other goat received the consequence of sin. This goat called the scape goat, was taken into the wilderness to die after the sins of the sanctuary were paced upon his head. (Lev.16:22) The first goat pointed forward to the death of Christ. The second/scapegoat symbolizes the death of Satan. Satan will not only receive the penalty and consequence for his own sins, but he must suffer the consequences of all the sins committed by the redeemed. God requires complete atonement for all sins. Therefore, God does not forgive sin, but sinners are.

Sin is a concept, not a person and therefore cannot be "forgiven."
I believe both goats represent Christ. The slain goat (Christ) is presented alive (resurrected before his Father, sinners confessing their sins over him. Then, he goes through the wilderness (the world) with a fit man (a believer) who then washes himself and enters the camp clean.
This sounds amazingly like what Jesus is doing now.

 

[JLB]

I understand how it sounds, but look at it from the spiritual perspective. The appearance of Christ exposesd how people are dead on their feet already,
It's the same principle where during the "messianic era, "the child will die at a hundred years" etc. It doesn't mean people will live longer. It means life is short. The knowledge of Christ shows us how life in this world is like a fading flower.
The rest of the text in Zech.14 about keeping the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem is truly a current reality, because we now live in temporary shelters, while giving thanks to God as we bring in the harvest.

Jesus Christ will literally return from Heaven to Jerusalem, and literally fight against those forces that surround the city. He will literally destroy them as He ours out the wrath of God upon the wicked.


He will take His place on His throne in Jerusalem as King over the whole earth, in which His enemies will have been removed.


And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16-19


We are certainly not living in a “current reality” of keeping the feast of Tabernacles now on the earth.


Keepng the feast of Tabernacles will be a literal event in Jerusalem each year during that prescribed time.




JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus Christ will literally return from Heaven to Jerusalem, and literally fight against those forces that surround the city. He will literally destroy them as He ours out the wrath of God upon the wicked.

He will take His place on His throne in Jerusalem as King over the whole earth, in which His enemies will have been removed.

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16-19

We are certainly not living in a “current reality” of keeping the feast of Tabernacles now on the earth.
Keepng the feast of Tabernacles will be a literal event in Jerusalem each year during that prescribed time.
JLB

I've been taught what you're teaching here and believed it for many years, but I was wrong.
Even the story of bondage in Egypt shows us how living in such a land can lead to idol worship, whereby we become slaves to sin. The Israelites deliverence from that bondage is like our being freed from sin.

Our dear Savior is concerned with the harvest of souls,

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King,the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zech.14:16

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem Heb.12:22

All of the Feasts have spiritual meaning. We're currently living in our temporary dwellings as we bring in Gods' harvest. No rain as a punishment for not honoring God this way is comparable to drought where Gods' word is concerned.

Add to this the fact that Jesus is returning in an all consuming fire, and the reality is Jesus isn't returning to begin a war. He's returning in part to honor those who won the war and and dispose of those who lost it (Eph.6:10-18, 2Tim.2:3-4)

 

[Goldwing]

Jesus Christ will literally return from Heaven to Jerusalem, and literally fight against those forces that surround the city. He will literally destroy them as He ours out the wrath of God upon the wicked.


He will take His place on His throne in Jerusalem as King over the whole earth, in which His enemies will have been removed.

JLB, I asked you in an earlier post if you can see any similarity between between the events, (which you consider to be the second coming) in Zec. 14, as compared to the prophecies of Rev.? Have not received a response.

 

[Goldwing]

I believe both goats represent Christ. The slain goat (Christ) is presented alive (resurrected before his Father, sinners confessing their sins over him. Then, he goes through the wilderness (the world) with a fit man (a believer) who then washes himself and enters the camp clean.
This sounds amazingly like what Jesus is doing now.

Are you aware that all of your reasoning is not at all in line with what actually happened to the two goats on the day of atonement, in the earthly tabernacle?