THE FORMULA FOR SALVATION

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't see wht point you are making here.
Could you clarify please.

Gladly. Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that they might know you.” In the OT, “what the Lord requires of you is to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with God.” “If you keep my teaching the Father will love you and we will come and make our abide with you.” “Many will come to me saying “Lord, lord” and I will say, “depart from me for I don’t know you.”

All of this and more repeatedly talk of relationship with God as necessary with repentance and forgiveness of necessary for that. The formula promises salvation from hell without any repentance or forgiveness or relationship with God. God supposedly gives an the believer (in the formula) takes. That’s it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

See Colossians 2:20-23.

The Colossian believers were turning to asceticism and Paul was here correcting them.

What they were doing was "not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Colossians 2:23).

In other words, they were exalting practices that were in denial of the flesh;

And yet Paul still had to correct them.

Asceticism is not the way.

Now, if I have called on the name of Jesus Chriust of Nazareth for salvation from sin, you can be sure that I will begin to take up my cross and follow Jesus. Because He has saved me from sin...and therefore I will take up the unselfish path of taking up my cross.

Also, those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Galatians 5:24).

And this has nothing to do with asceticism..."Touch not, taste not, handle not."

Agreed. However, it has everything to do with obedience. If anyone is trying to crucify the flesh in their own power, they’ll fail. However, if one asks God to show them what sins He wants to work on, and they confess and repent it is so, they will find grace to overcome obeying what the living God is saying instead of what they are telling themselves.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Those are your words, not mine. See my message above this one.

Why do you think you are saved by works?

I didn’t say you said it, it was Mungo who has the cheap and easy formula.

Now repentance is necessary for salvation but it’s not a work. Forgiving those who sin against you is ABSOLUTELY necessary but it’s still not a work. Showing mercy to others do you are shown mercy is necessary but still not a work.

Giving alms or money is a work. Helping the aged and poor is a work. Volunteering in a soup kitchen is a work. Fasting a prayer is a work.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Whatever this formula is, we know that you can accomplish it with both your hands & feet nailed to wood.


Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So this is a “arrange it yourself” but excruciatingly painful salvation formula? How come no apostle preached it? “Just get yourself crucified and you’re going to Heaven.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Formulas can have exceptions.

No they can’t. That’s why they’re called “formulas.”

 

[eddif]

Formula under the law of Moses:
2 Chronicles 7:14 kjv
14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
15. Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is madein this place.
16. For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
17. And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments;
18. Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
19. But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
20. Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

Read that a few times.
In the meantime let us go back to Eden with Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve had a covenant with God:
Here is your home.
This is what you can eat
This is what you shall not eat
Honor this covenant and you will physically live forever.

Adam and Eve broke the agreement, and lost their home and eventually died.

Back to the law of Moses
Later covenant for a nation:
Humble yourselves
Pray
Seek my face
Turn from wicked ways
I will hear from heaven
Heal your physical land
Other things

Israel broke the covenant and were divorced.

Note: this did not at this time include the promise of eternal life in heaven. It did include a continuing future, which they lost.

If this works for some, we might look later at the new covenant, but for now comments on this post.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Consecrated Life]

So this is a “arrange it yourself” but excruciatingly painful salvation formula? How come no apostle preached it? “Just get yourself crucified and you’re going to Heaven.”

My reading of the passage does not indicate that having hands & feet nailed to wood is the source of salvation, but is clear indication that no physical constraint can prevent salvation .

Your understanding of the passage is far afield from mine .

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[eddif]

Formula - what do we mean? A chemical formula is the structure of a molecule. A mathematical formula shows how different mathematical ingredients work together.

In theology the trinity is a Formula of Gods presence in the world.
The cross is a formula for reconciliation.
Repentance and walking in faith is a formula for communion.

Meeting Jesus has all these aspects, which all interact in an infinite combination of ways.
Reductionism is the attempt to reduce complex systems down to definable relationships which can be simply expressed.

Jesus brought us the bible, a mass of human experiences with God, which all have wisdom and meaning, context, good and bad points. The sacraments view of faith, attendance at church, reading and praying through scripture can become formula's. I was singing praises in church this morning, doing the projector, and thinking I had done this so long, I had lost some meaning in the words that my heart truly sang to the Lord. So I sung them to the Lord.

If it becomes a formula it seems to lose the life and the Spirit. Love ebbs and flows, gets hurt, adjusts, reappraises and then moves forward. The Lord got furious, which was tempered by Moses and Aaron, yet out view of the Lord is He is unaffected gliding above, distant. My heart broke in thanks to Jesus the other day when I felt the Lord appreciating my love for Him. He is so humble, that which I offer He values. I do not know how we are like Jesus and the Father, but I do know his way is as a Father and balancing all the responsibilities with support and encouragement.

Elijah was hopeful of Ahab coming round, but in the end Jezebel went after him so he ran. The Lord took this tired and in some ways broken man and encouraged him once again. The Lord chooses this walk time and again, and brings in people to the Kingdom.

So there is a formula in one way but not another. I have come to see that is the problem with trying to be too definitive, the Lord uses everything.

God bless you

That is pretty well put. Not a formula written in stone, but a living, loving condition bought at a great price by Jesus.

eddif

 

[Mungo]

The Bible does teach us in several places that we are saved through faith apart from works, however.

Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:3-7, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9.

Of course we are. As I commented to jaybo - we are saved by God's grace. Period!
Through faith - not by Faith.
If we were saved by Faith then we would be saving ourselves.

 

[eddif]

Of course we are. As I commented to jaybo - we are saved by God's grace. Period!
Through faith - not by Faith.
If we were saved by Faith then we would be saving ourselves.

Figure out both.

Romans 3:30 kjv
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

One new man.

eddif

 

[Mungo]

Gladly. Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that they might know you.” In the OT, “what the Lord requires of you is to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with God.” “If you keep my teaching the Father will love you and we will come and make our abide with you.” “Many will come to me saying “Lord, lord” and I will say, “depart from me for I don’t know you.”

All of this and more repeatedly talk of relationship with God as necessary with repentance and forgiveness of necessary for that. The formula promises salvation from hell without any repentance or forgiveness or relationship with God. God supposedly gives an the believer (in the formula) takes. That’s it.

I think it depends on what is meant by salvation. There are three dimensions to salvation -past, present and future.
In was referring to our initial Justification which brings us into a covenant relationship with God.

 

[Mungo]

Figure out both.

Romans 3:30 kjv
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

One new man.

eddif

since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. (RSV)

 

[Mungo]

No they can’t. That’s why they’re called “formulas.”

"formulas" in a very loose sense. Perhaps "condition" might be a better term as eddif suggested.

Not a formula written in stone, but a living, loving condition bought at a great price by Jesus

 

[Dorothy Mae]

"formulas" in a very loose sense. Perhaps "condition" might be a better term as eddif suggested.

Formulas work automatically. Conditions only can influence. They aren’t the same. But there are conditions for salvation for sure, more than one.

 

[jaybo]

It's scripture.
And Catholic dogma is based on scripture.

A couple of points regarding your previous post.

Note it says shall.. have (future) eternal life. Not does have eternal life right now.


And note it says - you will (future) be saved not you are saved right now,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph 2:8)
Salvation is a by God's grace - his free gift. God chooses when to give that grace and he tells us in scripture when he promises to give that gift - in baptism.

Faith is the first step to that grace but nowhere is scripture does it say we are saved by faith alone.

The verse you gave disproves your point. "Have been saved", not will be saved.

Eternal means "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning."

"Nowhere is scripture does it say we are saved by faith alone"? Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think it depends on what is meant by salvation. There are three dimensions to salvation -past, present and future.
In was referring to our initial Justification which brings us into a covenant relationship with God.

Well, as long as we hold up
our end of the covenant, there’s relationship. A covenant always has requirements or obligations on BOTH sides.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My reading of the passage does not indicate that having hands & feet nailed to wood is the source of salvation, but is clear indication that no physical constraint can prevent salvation .

Your understanding of the passage is far afield from mine .

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It wasn’t my understanding. I was disagreeing with the idea that getting yourself crucified will do it. That’s absurd. I think we agree.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course we are. As I commented to jaybo - we are saved by God's grace. Period!
Through faith - not by Faith.
If we were saved by Faith then we would be saving ourselves.

Faith that you’re saved? Will that do it?

 

[Mungo]

The verse you gave disproves your point. "Have been saved", not will be saved.

No it doesn't.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph 2:8)

As said we have been saved by God's grace

Eternal means "lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning."

Then do you believe that anyone who is saved has always been saved?
They were saved even before they were conceived?

"Nowhere is scripture does it say we are saved by faith alone"? Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.Your quote doesn't say wer

There is no alone in your quote so it doesn't say we are saved by faith alone.
And it says we are saved by grace.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It wasn’t my understanding. I was disagreeing with the idea that getting yourself crucified will do it. That’s absurd. I think we agree.

The verse never implies any such thing, and neither did I.
So I really don't understand who you are " disagreeing " with ?


Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.