THE FORMULA FOR SALVATION

[GodsGrace]

But we are not saved by faith. We are saved by God's grace

I've heard this before...it's an interesting concept and one I haven't come across in the Catholic church.

We are indeed saved by God's grace...the love God has for His creation and the provisions He has made for His creation, which He knew would fall and sin and lose preternatural gifts.

But if we leave it at that, it would mean that EVERYONE is saved because God loves all His creation, even though not all wish to be His child.

Can we say that we are saved by God's grace
THROUGH the instrument of faith?
Ephesians 2:8

God's grace always exists.
But if there is no faith, there is no salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's scripture.
And Catholic dogma is based on scripture.

A couple of points regarding your previous post.

Note it says shall.. have (future) eternal life. Not does have eternal life right now.


And note it says - you will (future) be saved not you are saved right now,

"For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph 2:8)
Salvation is a by God's grace - his free gift. God chooses when to give that grace and he tells us in scripture when he promises to give that gift - in baptism.

Faith is the first step to that grace but nowhere is scripture does it say we are saved by faith alone.

It is theologically accepted that the free gift spoken of in Ephesians 2:8
is
FAITH and SALVATION

Of course grace is a free gift too, that goes without saying.

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

What is the gift of God?
Salvation
Faith

But not to get confused with Calvinism:
Faith is a gift of God FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO RECEIVE IT.

 

[Mungo]

So faith is not necessary, an optional extra, or ?

From previous posts:

Faith is necessary but not sufficient.

Through faith - not by Faith.
If we were saved by Faith then we would be saving ourselves.

A Catholic apologist put it like this:
my faith - or the faith of my parents if I am baptized as a baby - gets me to a place where God can then save me because of His grace. So, I am saved by God's grace alone, in Baptism. But, it is through faith that I got to the point where God could save me. If I am saved "because of" my faith, then I would be saved the moment I had faith. There would be no need of Baptism since I would have been saved "because of" my faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

Formula - what do we mean? A chemical formula is the structure of a molecule. A mathematical formula shows how different mathematical ingredients work together.

In theology the trinity is a Formula of Gods presence in the world.
The cross is a formula for reconciliation.
Repentance and walking in faith is a formula for communion.

Meeting Jesus has all these aspects, which all interact in an infinite combination of ways.
Reductionism is the attempt to reduce complex systems down to definable relationships which can be simply expressed.

Jesus brought us the bible, a mass of human experiences with God, which all have wisdom and meaning, context, good and bad points. The sacraments view of faith, attendance at church, reading and praying through scripture can become formula's. I was singing praises in church this morning, doing the projector, and thinking I had done this so long, I had lost some meaning in the words that my heart truly sang to the Lord. So I sung them to the Lord.

If it becomes a formula it seems to lose the life and the Spirit. Love ebbs and flows, gets hurt, adjusts, reappraises and then moves forward. The Lord got furious, which was tempered by Moses and Aaron, yet out view of the Lord is He is unaffected gliding above, distant. My heart broke in thanks to Jesus the other day when I felt the Lord appreciating my love for Him. He is so humble, that which I offer He values. I do not know how we are like Jesus and the Father, but I do know his way is as a Father and balancing all the responsibilities with support and encouragement.

Elijah was hopeful of Ahab coming round, but in the end Jezebel went after him so he ran. The Lord took this tired and in some ways broken man and encouraged him once again. The Lord chooses this walk time and again, and brings in people to the Kingdom.

So there is a formula in one way but not another. I have come to see that is the problem with trying to be too definitive, the Lord uses everything.

God bless you

:nod

Well said.
Thank you !

In fact I did mean that there is no set formula.
God reveals Himself to us and lets us know what He wishes from us.
This could happen in different ways for different persons.
Jesus included all persons and taught that by having faith in God (believing Him)
and doing as God pleases would bring about salvation.

This is the only formula I can attest to...
however, others may find different formulas in the NT which will also please God.

 

[Mungo]

I've heard this before...it's an interesting concept and one I haven't come across in the Catholic church.

We are indeed saved by God's grace...the love God has for His creation and the provisions He has made for His creation, which He knew would fall and sin and lose preternatural gifts.

But if we leave it at that, it would mean that EVERYONE is saved because God loves all His creation, even though not all wish to be His child.

Can we say that we are saved by God's grace
THROUGH the instrument of faith?
Ephesians 2:8

God's grace always exists.
But if there is no faith, there is no salvation.

See my previous post

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm a bit late to this and have only skimmed through the posts.
But yes, God has given us a "formula" and I'm surprised no-one has quoted this.

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
He also told the apostles to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20).

That does not mean that is the only way one can be saved. God is sovereign and can save whoever he wants to and for whatever reasons he chooses. But that is the way he has given us and we cannot do it our way.

Agreed on your last sentence.

 

[Mungo]

Hi Mungo
Are you saying that Jesus left the instruction to all of us to go into all the world to teach and baptize or only to the Apostles? Matthew 28:19

Also, I need to add that when we use the word believe we need to understand that it means something different in Greek than how we understand it.

Our member, heartwashed HAS indeed stated that all we need to do to be saved is to believe.

I ask him...and you...believe what?

Jesus didn't say all we had to do was believe, instead He left us with a list of things to do.

He left the apostles, and those that succeded them to baptise.

 

[GodsGrace]

See my previous post

Which one??
Number?
Just got back after a long time away...

 

[GodsGrace]

He left the apostles, and those that succeded them to baptise.

Agreed.
Just clarifying.

We should all testify or witness to God's love whenever we can...
but in Matthew 28:19 I do believe Jesus was speaking specifically to the Apostles.

 

[Mungo]

You used the term “initial” which by definition has to mean there is a second one after the “initial” one. Calling me names won’t change that. Might want to think about your “secondary” salvation (the one after the “initial” one.)

I said salvation has thee dimensions - past present and future/
.
Past
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved (Eph 2:5)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8)

Present
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1Pet 1:8-9)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1Cor 1:18)

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,(Phil 2:12)

Future
And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.(Rom 13:11)

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (1Cor 3:15)

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.(1Cor 5:5)

 

[Mungo]

See my previous post

Previous to that one.

 

[Mungo]

I've heard this before...it's an interesting concept and one I haven't come across in the Catholic church.

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
(Council of Trent Session 6, chapter VI)

 

[GodsGrace]

Previous to that one.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
(Council of Trent Session 6, chapter VI)

They are conceiving faith by hearing...

God's grace falls on everyone...
He makes us righteous through our belief in Him
Romans 5:8 While we were still sinners, God showed His love for us.

At God's revelation, they freely move toward God, believing Him to be true in His word...

God makes the first move through His grace, which is available to all if not rejected at the time of revelation...
Man makes the 2nd move by accepting that grace.

Session 6 is saying that man conceives faith by hearing...
It is faith that is necessary for salvation.

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

 

[GodsGrace]

From previous posts:



A Catholic apologist put it like this:
my faith - or the faith of my parents if I am baptized as a baby - gets me to a place where God can then save me because of His grace. So, I am saved by God's grace alone, in Baptism. But, it is through faith that I got to the point where God could save me. If I am saved "because of" my faith, then I would be saved the moment I had faith. There would be no need of Baptism since I would have been saved "because of" my faith.

I'm sorry Mungo, but the above is the opposite of what happens.
I don't see any difference in how Protestants view salvation and how Catholics view salvation.

INITIAL SALVATION
or
JUSTIFICATION is by faith alone. By our faith in God.
Faith is an absolutely necessary component of salvation.
And it is by MY FAITH. How does that make ME my own savior?
Saying it is THROUGH faith, which I also agree with, is the same.
If you want to distinguish between the two, you're walking a fine line and I don't know anyone here that can cut it that thin.

The jailer, Acts 16:31, said BELIEVE IN CHRIST

Believe means to have faith.
If we have faith, we will be saved.

We are saved through our faith in God, by His grace.

I don't know how this could be debated by any apologist, whatever denomination.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, as long as we hold up
our end of the covenant, there’s relationship. A covenant always has requirements or obligations on BOTH sides.

Unilateral Covenants place all responsibility on God and none on man.
Bilateral Covenants have requirements on both sides.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly!! Well said. Those have faith in the Gospel OBEY Jesus’ teaching. Those who have faith in their faith don’t.

Example:

A. I have faith I’m going to Heaven because I asked Jesus into my heart and believe he’s saved me. There’s nothing more I need to do because that would be works.

B. I believe Jesus told the truth and is the way to God so I carefully learn his teaching and have repented of my sin, received forgiveness and am seeking the Holy Spirit to guide me and correct me and I know I have obeyed him at times at least. I seek to do more so.

The above looks like multiple choice....at least I hope it is, knowing you.

So, I'll pick B.

A is nowhere to be found in scripture.

 

[heartwashed]

What’s the difference between faith in faith and faith in the truth? How does a person know which they have? Jesus says many would come to him having had faith and he sends them away. Did they have faith in their faith?

Faith in the truth is placed on Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.

Faith in faith is placed on faith itself.

“If you love me you’ll keep my teaching.” You might love the gift but with that theology the love for the Giver cannot grow. The focus is too much on what you believe you got.

Love for the Giver definitely grows when we appreciate the gift.

It should be clear that if we do not understand that salvation is a gift, we will in some way be trying to earn it or to otherwise gain it through personal merit.

That is not the way. God will not owe anything to anyone (see Romans 4:4).

 

[heartwashed]

Hi Mungo
Are you saying that Jesus left the instruction to all of us to go into all the world to teach and baptize or only to the Apostles? Matthew 28:19

Also, I need to add that when we use the word believe we need to understand that it means something different in Greek than how we understand it.

Our member, heartwashed HAS indeed stated that all we need to do to be saved is to believe.

I ask him...and you...believe what?

Jesus didn't say all we had to do was believe, instead He left us with a list of things to do.

See 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[heartwashed]

The above looks like multiple choice....at least I hope it is, knowing you.

So, I'll pick B.

A is nowhere to be found in scripture.

A is to be found in holy scripture...specifically in Romans 10:13.

Of course, if anyone calls on the name of the Lord for salvation from sin, it will produce a change of heart and life so that good works will ultimately follow if given the opportunity.

I would say that what is found in B...seeking to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and obedient to Him...is not a requirement for salvation....while it is the certain result of a genuine salvation...for the Lord changes the heart.