The Holocaust - God's Covenant with the Jewish People

[einstein]

It would be quite easy for me to provide numerous terrible translations from the source you quoted but I know you wouldnt change your mind.

This is not constructive. This statement is a dressed-up of way of implying that I have an "agenda" to "make" the scriptures conform to a view that I want to prevail.

You have no evidence at all to suggest that I am not being fair and open-handed in my analysis of the scriptures, so please do not speculate about the nature of my intentions.

I do not treat you this way - please give the appropriate level of respect.

I never implied you had an agenda. I was and remain critical of the source you used in attempting to translate the word "olam". Any disrespect is directed to your source, not to you personally. You have re-inforced my opinion with your recent post and quotation from Isaiah which I presume is from the NIV. Please confirm the source of your translation as I will have more to say later. :ohwell

 

[Drew]

I never implied you had an agenda.

You certainly did. You suggested that I would not change my mind regardless of what information you brrought to bear. Please do not deny the obvious. Its' not the end of the world, but let's not pretend that this is not "about me" and is instead about my source:

It would be quite easy for me to provide numerous terrible translations from the source you quoted but I know you wouldnt change your mind.

....is not a "shot" at my objectivity and open-mindedness (which you have no basis to impugn from the content of my posts)

Please confirm the source of your translation as I will have more to say later. :ohwell

NASB (New American Standard Bible)

 

[einstein]

I never implied you had an agenda.

You certainly did. You suggested that I would not change my mind regardless of what information you brrought to bear. Please do not deny the obvious. Its' not the end of the world, but let's not pretend that this is not "about me" and is instead about my source:

It would be quite easy for me to provide numerous terrible translations from the source you quoted but I know you wouldnt change your mind.

....is not a "shot" at my objectivity and open-mindedness (which you have no basis to impugn from the content of my posts)

Please confirm the source of your translation as I will have more to say later. :ohwell

NASB (New American Standard Bible)

I am suggesting that when you attempt exegesis and start with a faulty translation of what is stated in the original Hebrew- then your conclusions are suspect. I know most Christians feel their bibles are an accurate translation- and for the most part they are fine. However there are passages, most notably the so-called prooftexts which mistranslate and pervert the original Hebrew for their own purposes.

Look at the passage you quoted from Isaiah-1But there will be no more (A)gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He (B)treated the (C)land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.

Here is a much more accurate rendition of the Hebrew- For there is no weariness to the one who oppresses her; like the first time, he dealt mildly, [exiling only] the land of Zebulun and the land of Naftali, and the last one he dealt harshly, the way of the sea, the other side of the Jordan, the attraction(or Galil) of the nations.

×’ ×›Ö´Ö¼×™ לֹנמוּעָף, לַ×Âֲשֶ×Âר מוּצָק לָ×â€Ã–¼, כָּעֵת ×â€Ã–¸×¨Ö´×Âש×Âוֹן ×â€Ã–µ×§Ö·×œ ×Âַרְצָ׆זְבֻלוּן
וְ×Âַרְצָ׆נַפְתָּלִי, וְ×â€Ã–¸×Âַחֲרוֹן ×â€Ã–´×›Ö°×‘ִּיד--דֶּרֶךְ ×â€Ã–·×™Ö¸Ö¼× ×¢Öµ×‘ֶר ×â€Ã–·×™Ö·Ö¼×¨Ö°×“ֵּן, גְּלִיל ×â€Ã–·×’ּוֹיִ×Â.

The point is there are no Hebrew words stating "but later on He shall make it glorious". This is tampering with the Hebrew Bible for Christological intent. Matthew uses this verse and makes it into a messianic prophecy about Jesus when really it is an historical recounting by Isaiah of the exiles of the Northern Kingdom by Assyria. The phrase that is inserted with reference to a future event for which there is no Hebrew equivalent was done to try to retrofit Jesus into the scenario as per Matthew.

The same thing is done in the following verse when past tenses in Hebrew are turned into future tenses with the same purpose. Now why should someone who has spent years studying the Tanach in its original Hebrew accept any theological positions based on this kind of source?

 

[einstein]

If you still feel that God's word-the Torah and his covenants have expiry dates, because of one lousy translation of the word "olam" in the NetBible, there's really nothing more I can say.

What do you make of the following?

Zechariah 11:10-11 - And I took my staff, [even] Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 - And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it [was] the word of the LORD.

10 And I took my staff Graciousness, and cut it asunder, 'that I might break My covenant which I had made with all the peoples.' The Eternal here is referring to the covenant made with many nations, ie peopleS- the Hebrew reads "et kol ha'amim" (plural). In other words, G-d set aside his covenant formed with other nations not to harm the Jewish people, because they (especially the Northern Kingdom) betrayed God and indulged in idol worship and did not keep God's commandments.

 

[Heneni]

God is not finished with israel yet.

Israel will be united on the new earth.

This current israel will be destroyed, it is just as illigit as the temple of herod was not gods idea.

ALL of israel, from the first to the last will live on the new earth. They will therefore need a lot of space. And they will be so big in numbers that they will fill the whole earth with their people. Abraham will live there too. His descendants will be hard to count!

There will be 12 judges (the twelve disciples) for the new earth.

The salvation for the gentiles/jews who are currently saved by grace are the people god has chosen for himself to occupy the new heavens. (they will judge angels)

The current jews who seem like they are cut off forever are the people god has chosen for himself to occupy the new earth forever.

God will have a people for himself above and below. ALL of israel WILL be saved.

God never retracts his call, nor does he change his mind about those he elects.

God bless
Heneni

 

[Drew]

Here is a much more accurate rendition of the Hebrew- "For there is no weariness to the one who oppresses her; like the first time, he dealt mildly, [exiling only] the land of Zebulun and the land of Naftali, and the last one he dealt harshly, the way of the sea, the other side of the Jordan, the attraction(or Galil) of the nations."

×’ ×›Ö´Ö¼×™ לֹנמוּעָף, לַ×Âֲשֶ×Âר מוּצָק לָ×â€Ã–¼, כָּעֵת ×â€Ã–¸×¨Ö´×Âש×Âוֹן ×â€Ã–µ×§Ö·×œ ×Âַרְצָ׆זְבֻלוּן
וְ×Âַרְצָ׆נַפְתָּלִי, וְ×â€Ãַחֲרוֹן ×â€Ã–´×›Ö°×‘ִּיד--דֶּרֶךְ ×â€Ã–·×™Ö¸Ö¼× ×¢Öµ×‘ֶר ×â€Ã–·×™Ö·Ö¼×¨Ö°×“ֵּן, גְּלִיל ×â€Ã–·×’ּוֹיִ×Â.

I am not going to dispute this. I think I could counterargue the point, but I am not prepared to invest the time to do so, at least not at present.

 

[Drew]

ALL of israel WILL be saved.

If by this you mean that there will be, at some point in the future, a large-scale conversion of Jews to Christianity, I would disagree.

Can you defend this assertion. I am well aware of the Romans 11:26 text, but I think a strong case can be made that this is actually an allusion to the church, not to ethnic Jews.

 

[Heneni]

ALL of israel WILL be saved.

If by this you mean that there will be, at some point in the future, a large-scale conversion of Jews to Christianity, I would disagree.

Can you defend this assertion. I am well aware of the Romans 11:26 text, but I think a strong case can be made that this is actually an allusion to the church, not to ethnic Jews.

The 'some point' i am talking about is the point when the new earth is created.
Upon it god will place his elected israeli nation. Romans 11:26 does indeed talk about the jews return to god as nothing short than 'life from the dead'. And that is what will happen first. They will go through god's wrath.

Their branches have been cut off, but they are still the elect and most importantly they are god's firstborn nation. God will establish them forever upon this earth in order that the forefathers he made promises too, may inherit the promises with them. All the promises that god made to the isrealites and to the partriarchs will come to pass on the new earth for the jews. But while they are on this old earth, they are under god's wrath (after the crucifixtion). On the new earth they will receive mercy and god will establish them forever. Israel is god's firstborn human nation. And the firstborn inherits the earth.

Jesus is the first divine born human from above and therefore has claim to the inheritance above and below. He is therefore the king of all kings. We are not the firstborn from above (jesus is) neither are we the firstborn israel. So we share in the inheritance from above only (because we are not the firstborn from above, jesus is, but we are born from above later in turn and in rank) and we will be kings in the heavenly realm, juding angels. Isreal is gods firstborn on the earth, and therefore have claim to the inheritance of the new earth, and have 12 judges that will govern it along with jesus, who is the king of all.

The new heaven and the new earth is together gods kingdom. I believe that salvation is not universal because salvation means the birthing of a heavenly people that will inherit the heavens. Those whom god has not elected for salvation will not and cannot inherit the heavens.

We are said to be joint heirs with christ meaning that because he inherits we share in the inheritance.

Now isreal is the oldest firstborn. Jesus is the younger first born from above on this earth. Therefore the older firstborn (israel) will serve the younger. (jesus). But in the grand scheme of things jesus is the only begotton son of god, meaning he gets to have it all. And by begotton i dont mean birthed before the foundation of the world was laid, but rather that begotton means have priority and rank and prestige over everthing else. Jesus is the only begotton son of god, in the sense that he is the ONLY one that has the highest rank, value, priority, position and glory of all.

Just some thoughts for you to consider. If you dont agree that is fine also.

I havent got this all figured out myself. But this is how I understand it currently.
Heneni

 

[Sinthesis]

If you still feel that God's word-the Torah and his covenants have expiry dates, because of one lousy translation of the word "olam" in the NetBible, there's really nothing more I can say.

What do you make of the following?

Zechariah 11:10-11 - And I took my staff, [even] Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 - And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it [was] the word of the LORD.

10 And I took my staff Graciousness, and cut it asunder, 'that I might break My covenant which I had made with all the peoples.' The Eternal here is referring to the covenant made with many nations, ie peopleS- the Hebrew reads "et kol ha'amim" (plural). In other words, G-d set aside his covenant formed with other nations not to harm the Jewish people, because they (especially the Northern Kingdom) betrayed God and indulged in idol worship and did not keep God's commandments.

Is there an online resource I can use which has the translation you are using? I don't want to have a discussion over content degenerate into an argument over translation. I apply a different meaning to Zechariah 11:10-11 (big surprise), but I would like to see if it holds up using your preferred translation.

 

[Sinthesis]

ALL of israel WILL be saved.

If by this you mean that there will be, at some point in the future, a large-scale conversion of Jews to Christianity, I would disagree.

Can you defend this assertion. I am well aware of the Romans 11:26 text, but I think a strong case can be made that this is actually an allusion to the church, not to ethnic Jews.

Israel is god's firstborn human nation. And the firstborn inherits the earth.

Ask Cain, Ishmael, and Esau about that! :o

 

[nonbelieverforums]

The more I keep an eye on this Russia Iran and Israel conflict the more and more I have a hard time believing Ezekiel 38–39 has happend already.

I am going to try and keep this thread alive till Sept 30,, pretty sure that this conflict will have started by then.. I wish Israel would just hurry up and do a pre-emptive strike on Iran.. What are they waiting for?

Distroy Israel and the United States = The great Mahdi will be summoned.

What the bible says about Russia, Iran and Israel..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugbouP4JbAw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqHg9T0KF1Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0YRheLs86E

today

Joel Rosenberg’s Weblog

Iran’s Supreme Leader, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, called on Muslims in neighboring countries this week to intensify preparations for the coming of the Islamic Messiah known as the Mahdi or the “Twelfth Imam.†He specifically urged Muslims to mobilize forces to defeat the United States and Israel.

“We have to train honest forces that can stop the obstacles that may hinder the coming of the Mahdi like the United States and Israel,†the Ayatollah said through a spokesman, in a story reported by al-Arabiya, the Arabic-language news channel based in the Gulf.


“Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s spokesman, Ali Saeedi, said countries like Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan and Afghanistan should gather together all their forces in order to make drastic changes to prepare for the coming of al-Mahdi al-Montazar, Arabic for ,the awaited guided one,’†reported al-Arabiya.

The story did not specify what “drastic changes†the Ayatollah had in mind.


“Saeedi also said that the supreme leader of Iran is the direct representative of the Mahdi and that obeying him is like obeying the ‘guided one,’ who is the prophesized savior of Islam,†explained the report. “‘Since the armed forces are commanded by the Supreme Leader, they are thus obeying the orders of the awaited Mahdi,’ Saeedi said, adding ‘the Revolutionary Guards and the armed forces in Iran hold religious authority to prepare for the appearance of the Mahdi.’â€Â

The story, which first came to my attention this week through an article on the WorldNetDaily site, is striking for three reasons.

First, it is noteworthy because it is the Supreme Leader  not Ahmadinejad  who has suddenly taken the lead in talking to the Muslim world directly about the coming of the Mahdi. Until now, Khamenei has been very low-key about his eschatological views, though as I describe in Inside The Revolution, there has been sufficient evidence before now to believe that he and Ahmadinejad shared the same End Times theology.

Second, Khamenei is claiming to be the direct representative of the Twelfth Imam, and that his commands  particularly when it comes to military matters  must be obeyed as if they were coming directly from the Islamic “savior†himself.

Third, the message from Iran’s leader directly threatening the U.S. and Israel comes immediately after Khamenei and Ahmadinejad consolidated and held on to the reins of power in Iran after a tumultuous political summer in Iran, and on the eve of the September deadline that the Obama administration and the leaders of the G8 have given for Iran to accept full negotiations over halting its pursuit of nuclear weapons.

It strikes me as less likely than ever that the leaders of Iran intend to give up their feverish bid to build, buy or steal nuclear weapons. To the contrary, they are beginning to publicly mobilize their neighbors to join them in defeating the U.S. and Israel and ushering in the “second coming†of the Islamic messiah. This makes the prospect of a cataclysmic war in the epicenter even more likely.

Now comes the news that Saudi Arabia is moving forward with plans to build a series of nuclear power plants. This is clearly a move to respond to the Iran nuclear threat, and suggests the Sunni Muslim royal family are actively preparing for a nuclear arms race with their Shia Muslim enemies in Iran. Notes the Jerusalem Post: “Over the last two years, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, Kuwait, the UAE, Yemen, Morocco, Libya, Jordan and Egypt have all indicated an interest in developing nuclear programs, with Israeli officials saying, off the record, that if these countries did not want the programs now for their military capabilities, they wanted the technology in place to keep ‘other options open’ if Iran were to develop a bomb.

 

[einstein]

[quote="Sinthesis".[/quote]

10 And I took my staff Graciousness, and cut it asunder, 'that I might break My covenant which I had made with all the peoples.' The Eternal here is referring to the covenant made with many nations, ie peopleS- the Hebrew reads "et kol ha'amim" (plural). In other words, G-d set aside his covenant formed with other nations not to harm the Jewish people, because they (especially the Northern Kingdom) betrayed God and indulged in idol worship and did not keep God's commandments.[/quote]
Is there an online resource I can use which has the translation you are using? I don't want to have a discussion over content degenerate into an argument over translation. I apply a different meaning to Zechariah 11:10-11 (big surprise), but I would like to see if it holds up using your preferred translation.[/quote]

Google english-hebrew bible and you get a version of the JPS 1917. I don't adhere to this translation but the website is useful since it has the hebrew and english side by side. Much better translations are found in the Judaica Press Tanach and Artscroll Stone Edition.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38 - Which is the Next Middle East News Headline?



By Bill Salus

These days there is much talk centered upon the future timing of the Russian and Iranian led invasion of Israel, foretold in the Bible prophecies of Ezekiel 38 and 39. Due to the newsworthy events that are presently occurring, whereby Russian and Iranian relationships are ever strengthening, prophecy buffs are appropriately attempting with god-speed, to connect the prophetic dots.

For those of you who are not familiar with today’s most prevalent prophetic news pervading the Christian and Jewish scholarly communities, you should study Ezekiel 38 and 39, with the understanding that it alludes to a nuclear equipped Russian–Iranian led confederacy, which forms to invade the nation of Israel in the end times. Although scholars are somewhat split as to who all the other enjoining coalition member nations are, they all tend to agree that no explicit reference is made to the inclusion of Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians, Lebanese, or Jordanians. Furthermore Saudi Arabians apparently abstain from enlisting themselves in the fight alongside Russia, Iran, Turkey, and the additional consortia of nations. The absence of these above listed predominately Arab populations tends to perplex the scholars, often causing them to postulate, rather than promulgate as to the reasons why.

However, in their zeal have the prophecy buffs managed to put the colloquial cart before the proverbial horse? Certainly the events described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 are slated to arrive soon, but are they indeed scheduled next? There exists a litany of questions that should be appropriately answered before any scholar dare flip the pages of the prophetic calendar forward to the date of this Goliath Ezekiel event. Newspaper exegesis makes for sensational reporting, but has no inherent ability to accelerate the final fulfillment of a Bible prophecy.

Before we list the flurry of questions, let’s ponder the most obvious one, which is; why are the Palestinians, and their Arab neighbors from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Jordan, not declared by Ezekiel to be enlisted members in the Russian–Iranian led coalition? These are the nations that have proven to be the most observable opponents of the Jewish State, since its inception in 1948. It is through much of their Arab soil, that Russia, Iran, and their cohorts intend to travel in order to invade Israel. This question will be answered further on in this article, but for now let’s explore the following additional questions.

Is Israel:
1.A people dwelling securely, yashab betach in the Hebrew language? (Ezek. 38:8)
2.A people dwelling without walls? (Ezek. 38:11)
3.A nation at peace in the Middle East? (Ezek. 38:11)
4.One of the wealthiest nations in the world? (Ezek. 38:13)
5.A people who have acquired “great plunder� (Ezek. 38:13)
6.Recognized as a Sovereign Nation, by the international community? (Ezek. 38:8)
These questions address some of the prerequisite conditions required for the stage to be appropriately set for the Russian–Iranian led nuclear equipped invasion of Israel. Furthermore Ezekiel 38:8 describes the Jewish people, as being regathered from the nations of the world, and returning to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. Though the Jewish people are being restored back to their ancient promised land, the honest answers to the above questions are, in each case No!

Israel is not dwelling securely. Likewise Israel is not a people dwelling without walls; to the contrary, they have constructed a huge 25 foot high, soon to be 403 miles long, wall in the midst of their land, intended to partition Palestinian terrorists away from Israel proper.

No it does not appear as though Israel is presently a nation at peace in the Middle East, whose sovereignty is officially recognized by all their Arab neighbors. Neither has Israel become one of the wealthiest nations in the world, as a result of acquiring “great plunderâ€Â, which Biblically alludes to the spoils obtained as the result of a war. In fact Israel continues to forfeit land, their most valuable asset, in an attempt to obtain peace with their Arab neighbors.

So then, if the prerequisite conditions have not yet come into alignment for the final fulfillment of the Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophecies, what is the next major ground shaking prophetic event foretold to unfold in the Middle East? What dare the Bible say will happen in the most perplexing region on planet Earth? Will it be an event that serves to bring Israel into appropriate alignment with the stage-setting requirements that facilitate the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s Russian–Iranian led invasion?

Yes, now we have some Yes answers to introduce. Yes, something else of epic proportion is foretold in the Bible to occur in the Middle East! Yes, its conclusion will bring forth the announcement that the world theater is now readied for the nuclear equipped advance of the Russian–Iranian led invasion. Yes, it does adequately answer the fundamental question of why the Arab populations listed above are nowhere to be found in the Russian–Iranian coalition. Are you ready?

There is destined to be an Arab–Israeli war as per Psalm 83. An Arab confederacy consisting of Palestinians, Syrians, Saudi Arabians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Jordanians, and all their associated terrorist bedfellows, is destined to form with the explicit mandate of, and I quote;
“They have said, Come, and let us [Arabs] cut them [Jews] off from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more.†(Psalm 83:4, NKJV)
These Arab peoples referred to by their ancient territorial names in Psalm 83, come together in one last crazed attempt to destroy the Jewish State of Israel. This will prove to be a fatal mistake for these Arab confederates. They will meet up with the technologically advanced arsenal of weapons possessed by the powerful army of Israel. It will be a matter of Israel’s survival, and their army will prevail. In victory, Israel finds itself fulfilling numerous prophecies such as:
1.They have become an “exceedingly great army†(Ezek. 37:10)
2.The execution of judgments on those who despise them (Ezek. 28:25)
3.They will then dwell securely (yashab betach) (Ezek. 28:26)
4.They will acquire Arab lands and great plunder (Obadiah 1:19, Jeremiah 49:2)
5.Sovereign International acclaim as “My People Israel†(Ezek. 25:14, 38:14,16)
6.They will become one of the wealthiest nations on earth (Zephaniah 2:7,9 NRSV)
These and many more prophecies find there fulfillment as a result of the Arab–Israeli war, which is certain to come, and is most likely the next major Middle East headline event according to scripture.

Why are the Palestinians and their Arab cohorts not enjoined in the Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophecies? Today’s most observable Arab opponents to the restoration of the nation Israel collectively abstain due to the fact, that they are soon to be decimated by the might of the Israeli Defense Force. How does Israel achieve peace in the Middle East and obtain international recognition as the sovereign Jewish State? It is through military means rather than politically brokered Real Estate deals, such as “The Roadmap Planâ€Â. When will the partition wall in Israel come down, and the Jews dwell securely in the Middle East? This will occur when the Jewish State expands territorially, acquires great plunder, and becomes regionally superior.

Digesting the above, Russia and Iran become threatened by what will then be, the new and improved, enlarged and in-charged future Israel. As a result of the Israeli Conquest over the inner circle of the core Arab nations that most closely border Israel today, the Russians and Iranians will promptly invite an outer circle of nations to enjoin their coalition in an attempt to destroy the Jewish State, and capture Israel’s newfound fortunes. It is then, and not before, that the prophecy buffs can safely turn the next page of the prophetic calendar forward and warn the world, that the events of Ezekiel 38 and 39 are about to reveal themselves.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Monday, August 24, 2009
Erasing Israel

By Jim Fletcher

Supporting Israel is a complex proposition. Which probably explains why most people would rather watch television and crunch Crunch ‘N Munch.

I visited a church with friends this past Sunday. The people were nice, sincere, and energetic. The church is evangelical and emphasizes praise and worship music and Holy Spirit living.

I’m pretty sure the pastor and members would enthusiastically say that they are pro Israel.

Yet the pastor based his message on the passages in 1 Samuel that detail David’s ascendancy to the throne, over Saul. You know the story.

The sermon was something about Christians today walking the earth as kings. Then there was some information given from the “Kansas City Prophets.â€Â

The point I’d like to make is that the vast majority of sermons I hear today that are preached from the Old Testament tend to spiritualize Scripture, or twist the context of a passage to fit a certain theology. Even in pro Israel churches. I sat there and wondered, “Why can’t he just preach the passage as an historical event and strengthen modern Israel’s connection to their ancestors?â€Â

For example, scores of college students today (even in seminaries!) hear that biblical characters were not real people.

Instead, there is usually some weird twist and turn with the text. To pull just one example from the fairly recent past: I was reading an issue of Charisma magazine some years ago and noticed an ad for a Rodney Howard-Browne speaking event. The Australian evangelist is known for his metaphysical slant on preaching. He is, as some would say, “over the top.â€Â

The ad touted his new sermon series on Ezekiel 37. This of course is the famous “Dry Bones†chapter, in which God tells the prophet what is going to happen to Israel.

Browne, who I believe would identify himself as pro Israel without question, was using the Dry Bones theme to state that dead, dry churches could be resurrected. This stance on Ezekiel 37 is very, very popular in American churches today, and has been for some time. And that is across-the-board: evangelical, mainline, etc. Preachers love to use the chapter in a spiritual context, rather than as an historical one; people love to sit in the pew and think about how their church is going to transition from “dry, dead bones†to renewed life.

Then they all go to lunch and forget about it until the next revival.

I would argue that Ezekiel 37 has nothing at all to do with the Church, and the thought is not original with me. Spurgeon and others in the past preached that the passage is meant for the “House of Israel.†Quite ironically, God Himself says in the chapter that it refers to the House of Israel.

But that’s not good enough for today’s shepherds, who are harming their flocks with horrid teaching.

It’s like reading The Call of the Wild and declaring that it’s the best novel about 21st century American suburban life that you’ve ever read.

Spiritualizing Ezekiel 37 (and hundreds of others that address Israel specifically) is a subtle, yet dangerous threat. First, it disconnects modern Israel from her ancestors. Second, it grows the number of Christians who are totally ignorant about Israel and the Jews, particularly as they relate to the end-times.

Would that there were more pastors like Jon Courson. The Oregon-based Courson related an interesting story the other day on the radio.

It seems he encountered a stranger at his church. The man asked if Jon Courson was in. Courson answered that he might be.

The fellow then pulled out a chart that detailed the heresy of “British Israelism.†This teaching alleges that the real Jews today are the Europeans, including Americans. It’s a convoluted teaching that sounds insane (because it is). But it’s one cog in a machine designed to marginalize Israel and the Jews of today.

Courson denounced British Israelism. I’ll bet he doesn’t spiritualize Ezekiel 37.

Of course, there are myriad issues involving Barack Obama’s views on the Middle East, one surely is that he was never taught that the Old Testament is history, especially in its predictive prophecy. This erases any discernment he might have developed.

For instance, Obama can’t hug Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak enough. The White House staff should place a cot in the Oval Office for Mubarak. Obama believes Egypt is a non-partisan power-broker between Israel and the Palestinians.

Obama’s chaotic worldview is blind to the reality of Israel. That’s why he does things like cozy up to Arab dictators. Mubarak’s Egypt is home to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is like Al Qaida’s uncle. Uncle Muslim Brotherhood came from another demented uncle, wahhabism, the forerunner of all radical Islamist groups.

Mubarak of course is more reasonable. For self-serving reasons. He has no interest in direct involvement in terrorism. Why should he? He wears tailored suits and lives in luxury. He’s a jet-setting “statesman.â€Â

But his world view, like Obama’s world view, was born in falsehoods. It is simply a tragedy that in this area, brutal Arab dictators share something in common with gullible (or duplicitous) Americans who have also ingested bad teaching about Israel and the Jews.

It’s why, when you scratch just under the surface, you find that those who openly pl Israel’s destruction (remember Psalm 83?) share much in common ideologically with Jimmy Carter, the editorial staff at Christianity Today, Jim Wallis, and the United Methodist Church.

Sad, sad, sad to say that many evangelical churches  with their spiritualizing/butchering of Scripture  add to the ignorance.

 

[Heneni]

God has a covenant with israel and as paul said, her reinstatement will be nothing short than life from the dead, hence the 'dry bones coming alive' scenario.

I believe that isreal will be reinstated and i believe that this will happen when the new earth is created where she will have twelved judges (the 12 disciples).

Now about this current carnal israel, its not the israel that is united under the lord. And, this israel (illigitimate) has become powerfull and she is ready to defend herself. But she is not realying on the name of her god to fight for her, she is relying on herself. Most of isreal is secular! She will be destroyed. She is not going to plunder the nations, and loot them, she is going to experience the wrath of god.

So, im not giving my support to the current israel, not for a second, but im very sure that israel will inherit the new earth. But not before she goes thru the wrath of god.

Heneni

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Sorry I'm confused..

Do you believe in endtime events where all the nations will turn against Israel as in Revelation i.e. to happen in the future? So you say no covenant now correct..??

My postion in this post is that because I believe in endtime events to follow , I see nothing where Israel (i.e. the country/state now nothing symbolic) could possible be distroyed it seems to stay in tact throughout. It may not be because of an actual covenant.. but I see nothing in future endtime events where Israel will be destroyed or any cities within Israel distroyed.

The most recent article I just posted seems to make all sense in the world to me.

Can you explain your post please or if someone else could.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

"nonbelieverforums"
but I see nothing in future endtime events where Israel will be destroyed or any cities within Israel distroyed.

I attempt to drive this point home sometimes but people keep missing the point.

Mathew 11;21-24
Woe unto thee Chorazin!woe unto thee,Bethsaida!for if the mighty works,which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon,they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
but I say unto you,It shall be more tolerable for Tire and Sidon at the day of judgement than for you.
And thou Capernaum,which art exalted unto heaven,shalt be brought down to hell;for if the mighty works,which have been done in thee,had been done in Sodom,it would have remained untill this day.
But I say unto you,That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement than for thee.

I think id rather be in Sodom than any city in Israel in the day of judgement.
But if you understood what would take place in Bethsaida that will not take place in Tyre,then you would understand.The abomination of desolation (mark of the beast)will be in Judea,not in Sidon.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Why should we bless Israel ??



[youtube:120n77l2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmd_Iy0rrL8[/youtube:120n77l2]

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Why should we bless Israel ??



[youtube:3eg591p1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmd_Iy0rrL8[/youtube:3eg591p1]

You tell us.Why should you bless Israel?
Did Israel die for you?
Did Israel wash you clean?
Is Israel the seed of Abraham?
Tell us,why should you bless an antichrist goverment that calls itself by the name of Israel?

Tell us,Are you going to bless that goverment because you think it is of God or because it voted to call itself by the name of Israel?Do you not know the goverment annointed of God is Christ and not that antichrist regime in Judea?
When Christ returns ,it will be time for that little horn to pay the piper.
Mathew 8;12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness;there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

But you go ahead and bless that antichrist regime along with these ignorant preachers.Ill bless the name of Jesus.The seed of Abraham through which all the nations of the world has been blessed.

 

[JoJo]

Wow. Shilohsfoal, I suggest you read "Standing with Israel: Why Christians Support the Jewish State" by David Brog. Perhaps it will enlighten you a little.