The Holocaust - God's Covenant with the Jewish People

[Drew]

Drew:

I know I have asked before are you a full or partial Preterist ?? What are you views on endtimes again ?? If you have told me before I am sorry I have forgotten.

I have only recently become interested in "end times" stuff, so my answer may be incomplete. I think I am a "partial preterist". I think that Matthew 24 and its parallels are about 70 AD, but I certainly think that Jesus will return.

You certainly raise a good argument.

That's very charitable. Now that you have set this high standard, you have shamed me into ensuring that I treat you (and others) with proper respect :D (I am not being facetious here - I really am expressing appreciation for your willingness to think about arguments that challenge your position).

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Has Ezekiel 38 39 already happened in your view ??

 

[Drew]

Has Ezekiel 38 39 already happened in your view ??

I will have to get back to you on this...

 

[einstein]

This land of Israel was given to the Jews for all eternity

Please make an actual scriptural case for this.

.

You keep challenging people to come forward with scriptural proofs but you are silent when the same challenges are made to you.

The covenant made with Abraham established that the land which belong to the Eternal was bequeathed to Abraham's descendants (thru Issac).

. "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations. ד. ×ÂÖ²× Ö´×™ ×â€Ã–´× ÖµÖ¼×†×‘ְרִיתִי ×Âִתָּךְ וְ×â€Ã–¸×™Ö´×™×ªÖ¸ לְ×Âַב ×â€Ã–²×ž×•Ö¹×Ÿ גּוֹיִ×Â:
5. And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. ×â€. וְלֹניִקָּרֵנעוֹד ×Âֶת שִ×Âמְךָ ×Âַבְרָנוְ×â€Ã–¸×™Ö¸×†×©Ö´×Âמְךָ ×Âַבְרָ×â€Ã–¸× ×›Ö´Ö¼×™ ×Âַב ×â€Ã–²×ž×•Ö¹×Ÿ גּוֹיִננְתַתִּיךָ:
6. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you. ו. וְ×â€Ã–´×¤Ö°×¨Öµ×ªÖ´×™ ×Âֹתְךָ בִּמְ×Âֹד מְ×Âֹד וּנְתַתִּיךָ לְגוֹיִנוּמְלָכִינמִמְּךָ יֵצֵ×Âוּ:
7. And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you. ×–. וַ×â€Ã–²×§Ö´×žÖ¹×ªÖ´×™ ×Âֶת בְּרִיתִי בֵÃ× Ö´×™ וּבֵינֶךָ וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ ×Âַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָנלִבְרִית עוֹלָנלִ×â€Ã–°×™×•Ö¹×ª לְךָ לֵ×Âלֹ×â€Ã–´×™× ×•Ö¼×œÖ°×–ַרְעֲךָ ×Âַחֲרֶיךָ:
8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."

Wrt to the eternal nature of Torah I suggest you read Psalm 119 as just one example. Read it in your Christian bible but note that the "law" and the "word" of the Eternal to Moses is the Torah.

89. Forever, O Lord, Your word stands in the heavens.

I have not even begun to mention the messianic prophecies in books like Ezekiel and Zechariah which have still not taken place but which foretell of the ultimate redemption and full restoration of the Jewish people to their homeland, the restoration of the Temple and the time when the Torah will come forth from Zion and all nations will recognize the Eternal as the one true and only God.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Are you talking about the Babylon then or the rebuilt Babylon now??

Since Persia has never destroyed any Babylon ,I recon Im talking about the present day Babylon in the middle east.The Babylon Israel has been serving these 60 years.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Well if we are talking about the modern day Babylon aka the rebuilt Babylon Iraq.I always understood it would be rebuilt and god would be the one to distroy it.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Well if we are talking about the modern day Babylon aka the rebuilt Babylon Iraq.I always understood it would be rebuilt and god would be the one to distroy it.

No we are not talking about Iraq.We are talking about Babylon the great.
You have been asking if the Persians will destroy Babylon.
Recon you dont know who Mystery Babylon is.

The answer to you question is yes.Babylon the great will be wiped off the face of the map.
Im inclinded to believe if Satan were to call himself Israel then half this board would believe him.

 

[einstein]

Many of the articles that I am reading about the Iran / Israel current conflict keep mentioning Isaiah 54:17 . I realise your argument is this verse ended at the crosss. But many view this verse suggesting that Israel could not be distroyed. This was the basis of my question.



Isaiah 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

As I have pointed out before, three verses earlier we are told terror will not come near Israel. So, is today's State of Israel terror-free?

Isa 54:14 - In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

I'll also add that nearly 20% of the State of Israel's population (non Jewish) would probably disagree about being far from oppression.

Actually, the Hebrew word umimchita in Isa 54:14 is translated as "and from ruin" or "and from devastation"- it does not mean terror.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Well if we are talking about the modern day Babylon aka the rebuilt Babylon Iraq.I always understood it would be rebuilt and god would be the one to distroy it.

No we are not talking about Iraq.We are talking about Babylon the great.
You have been asking if the Persians will destroy Babylon.
Recon you dont know who Mystery Babylon is.

The answer to you question is yes.Babylon the great will be wiped off the face of the map.
Im inclinded to believe if Satan were to call himself Israel then half this board would believe him.

I don't remember asking if Babylon the Great will be wiped off the face of the map. I asked if it was possible if Israel could be wiped off the face of the map. I never asked if the Persians will distroy Babylon.

I am confused when you say Babylon tho .. I am referring to Babylon the city, what is being built or rebuilt now.

I have been reading some theories that suggest that the Great Babylon could in fact be the United States:

http://bibleprobe.com/babylonusa.htm

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Dictiona ... number=T30

Will you be explaining your point anytime soon or will it be just guess games back and forth?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Well if we are talking about the modern day Babylon aka the rebuilt Babylon Iraq.I always understood it would be rebuilt and god would be the one to distroy it.

No we are not talking about Iraq.We are talking about Babylon the great.
You have been asking if the Persians will destroy Babylon.
Recon you dont know who Mystery Babylon is.

The answer to you question is yes.Babylon the great will be wiped off the face of the map.
Im inclinded to believe if Satan were to call himself Israel then half this board would believe him.

I don't remember asking if Babylon the Great will be wiped off the face of the map. I asked if it was possible if Israel could be wiped off the face of the map. I never asked if the Persians will distroy Babylon.

I am confused when you say Babylon tho .. I am referring to Babylon the city, what is being built or rebuilt now.

I have been reading some theories that suggest that the Great Babylon could in fact be the United States:

http://bibleprobe.com/babylonusa.htm

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Dictiona ... number=T30

Will you be explaining your point anytime soon or will it be just guess games back and forth?

To the point.
Jerusalem is Babylon the great.
All that is written about Babylon the great describes todays Jerusalem right down to the waters.

 

[Sinthesis]

Many of the articles that I am reading about the Iran / Israel current conflict keep mentioning Isaiah 54:17 . I realise your argument is this verse ended at the crosss. But many view this verse suggesting that Israel could not be distroyed. This was the basis of my question.



Isaiah 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

As I have pointed out before, three verses earlier we are told terror will not come near Israel. So, is today's State of Israel terror-free?

Isa 54:14 - In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

I'll also add that nearly 20% of the State of Israel's population (non Jewish) would probably disagree about being far from oppression.

Actually, the Hebrew word umimchita in Isa 54:14 is translated as "and from ruin" or "and from devastation"- it does not mean terror.

Your argument is with King James and some guy named Strong.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Revelation 18 calls for the literal city of Babylon to be the economic center of the world and to be ruled over by the Antichrist for the last three and a half years of the seven year Tribulation Period.

Is this Israel then ??

Sinthesis if your just going to punch in dumb on liners please stay out of my posts. I have told you before I don't appreciate your one liners. If you would like to participate properly and complete a sentence or two I would love to hear what you have to say. You remind me of a lawyer,,, you love to argue points of law forever but you have no sole.

I find it funny when everthere is a post about gods love, something spirtual or uplifting no one hears from you. Your never in there with the punch.

I trust that when and if you make it into heavin god will give you "A"s or "B"s for how well you argued scripture.. I just wonder what kind of marks you will get for where your heart and sole is at. I think you find it all funny like it's all a game of who knows more. Many of these posts are discussions about endtimes (past or present), salvation, rapture, etc.. people who many not know better are influenced by what you say. Why not say it properly.

Otherwise grow a mustache get a cigar and start doing stand up http://www.topcomedysecrets.com/

 

[Drew]

You keep challenging people to come forward with scriptural proofs but you are silent when the same challenges are made to you.

An unfair and untrue statement.

I am aware that I still have to get back to you on the matter of some material in Jeremiah. People familiar with my posting know that I do not avoid challenges. I am not able to address every challenge immediately, however.

 

[Drew]

The covenant made with Abraham established that the land which belong to the Eternal was bequeathed to Abraham's descendants (thru Issac).

. "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations. ד. ×ÂÖ²× Ö´×™ ×â€Ã–´× ÖµÖ¼×†×‘ְרִיתִי ×Âִתָּךְ וְ×â€Ã–¸×™Ö´×™×ªÖ¸ לְ×Âַב ×â€Ã–²×ž×•Ö¹×Ÿ גּוֹיִ×Â:
5. And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. ×â€. וְלֹניִקָּרֵנעוֹד ×Âֶת שִ×Âמְךָ ×Âַבְרָנוְ×â€Ã–¸×™Ö¸×†×©Ö´×Âמְךָ ×Âַבְרָ×â€Ã–¸× ×›Ö´Ö¼×™ ×Âַב ×â€Ã–²×ž×•Ö¹×Ÿ גּוֹיִננְתַתִּיךָ:
6. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you. ו. וְ×â€Ã–´×¤Ö°×¨Öµ×ªÖ´×™ ×Âֹתְךָ בִּמְ×Âֹד מְ×Âֹד וּנְתַתִּיךָ לְגוֹיִנוּמְלָכִינמִמְּךָ יֵצֵ×Âוּ:
7. And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you. ×–. וַ×â€Ã–²×§Ö´×žÖ¹×ªÖ´×™ ×Âֶת בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ ×Âַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָנלִבְרִית עוֹלָנלִ×â€Ã–°×™×•Ö¹×ª לְךָ לֵ×Âלֹ×â€Ã–´×™× ×•Ö¼×œÖ°×–ַרְעֲךָ ×Âַחֲרֶיךָ:
8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."

Things are not at all as simple as you seem to be suggesting. Consider verse 8 and the reference to the gift of Canaan as an “everlasting†possession. The Hebrew word that is translated as “everlasting†is the word “owlamâ€Â. Note how thition of this word is fluid – embracing the eternality that would support your position, but also allowing for a reading that does not denote eternality:

Definition (from Net Bible): 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

And here we have an example from Isaiah 42 of this same word used in a context where eternality is certainly not intended:

The LORD emerges like a hero,
like a warrior he inspires himself for battle;
he shouts, yes, he yells,
he shows his enemies his power.
I have been inactive for a long time;
I kept quiet and held back.
Like a woman in labor I groan;
I pant and gasp.
I will make the trees on the mountains and hills wither up;
I will dry up all their vegetation.
I will turn streams into islands,
and dry up pools of water.

Clearly God is talking about talking action after a long period of “inactivityâ€Â. So here, the word “owlam†does not denote an everlasting period of time – it denotes a limited duration of time.

So one cannot simply assume that Genesis 17:8 entails a promise of Canaan to the Israelites forever. That is one reading that needs to be considered, but there are others as well.

By the way, I am not committing, at this point anyway, to saying that I think that 17:8 is saying “Canaan has been given to Israel for a limited timeâ€Â. – I need to think about this further.

However, I believe that I have shown that “everlasting†need not necessarily mean “everlasting†in this context. We have Biblical precedent for a “time-limited†use of “owlamâ€Â.

I may have other arguments to make about the Genesis 17 passage later.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Has Ezekiel 38 39 already happened in your view ??

I will have to get back to you on this...

Drew.. what's the verdict ??

 

[Drew]

Has Ezekiel 38 39 already happened in your view ??

I will have to get back to you on this...

Drew.. what's the verdict ??

Still thinking about it. I owe you and einstein at least one response.

 

[einstein]

The covenant made with Abraham established that the land which belong to the Eternal was bequeathed to Abraham's descendants (thru Issac).

. "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations. ד. ×ÂÖ²× Ö´×™ ×â€Ã–´× ÖµÖ¼×†×‘ְרִיתִי ×Âִתָּךְ וְ×â€Ã–¸×™Ö´×™×ªÖ¸ לְ×Âַב ×â€Ã–²×ž×•Ö¹×Ÿ גּוֹיִ×Â:
5. And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. ×â€. וְלֹניִקָּרֵנעוֹד ×Âֶת שִ×Âמְךָ ×Âַבְרָנוְ×â€Ã–¸×™Ö¸×†×©Ö´×Âמְךָ ×Âַבְרָ×â€Ã–¸× ×›Ö´Ö¼×™ ×Âַב ×â€Ã–²×ž×•Ö¹×Ÿ גּוֹיִננְתַתִּיךָ:
6. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings will emerge from you. ו. וְ×â€Ã–´×¤Ö°×¨Öµ×ªÖ´×™ ×Âֹתְךָ בִּמְ×Âֹד מְ×Âֹד וּנְתַתִּיךָ לְגוֹיִנוּמְלָכִינמִמְּךָ יֵצֵ×Âוּ:
7. And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you. ×–. וַ×â€Ã–²×§Ö´×žÖ¹×ªÖ´×™ ×Âֶת בְּרִיתִי בֵּינִי וּבֵינֶךָ וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ ×Âַחֲרֶיךָ לְדֹרֹתָנלִבְרִית עוֹלָנלִ×â€Ã–°×™×•Ö¹×ª לְךָ לֵ×Âלֹ×â€Ã–´×™× ×•Ö¼×œÖ°×–ַרְעֲךָ ×Âַחֲרֶיךָ:
8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."

Things are not at all as simple as you seem to be suggesting. Consider verse 8 and the reference to the gift of Canaan as an “everlasting†possession. The Hebrew word that is translated as “everlasting†is the word “owlamâ€Â. Note how the definition of this word is fluid – embracing the eternality that would support your position, but also allowing for a reading that does not denote eternality:

Definition (from Net Bible): 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

And here we have an exrom Isaiah 42 of this same word used in a context where eternality is certainly not intended:

The LORD emerges like a hero,
like a warrior he inspires himself for battle;
he shouts, yes, he yells,
he shows his enemies his power.
I have been inactive for a long time;
I kept quiet and held back.
Like a woman in labor I groan;
I pant and gasp.
I will make the trees on the mountains and hills wither up;
I will dry up all their vegetation.
I will turn streams into islands,
and dry up pools of water.

Clearly God is talking about talking action after a long period of “inactivityâ€Â. So here, the word “owlam†does not denote an everlasting period of time – it denotes a limited duration of time.

So one cannot simply assume that Genesis 17:8 entails a promise of Canaan to the Israelites forever. That is one reading that needs to be considered, but there are others as well.

By the way, I am not committing, at this point anyway, to saying that I think that 17:8 is saying “Canaan has been given to Israel for a limited timeâ€Â. – I need to think about this further.

However, I believe that I have shown that “everlasting†need not necessarily mean “everlasting†in this context. We have Biblical precedent for a “time-limited†use of “owlamâ€Â.

I may have other arguments to make about the Genesis 17 passage later.

Drew- it is an everlasting possession and an everlasting covenant. Look at the context. Do you think that God is making a brit with Abraham with a limited life expectancy- like a carton of milk?

In this particular context, I think there is no doubt that the use of the word "olam" does not mean for a long (but limited) time.

 

[Drew]

Drew- it is an everlasting possession and an everlasting covenant. Look at the context. Do you think that God is making a brit with Abraham with a limited life expectancy- like a carton of milk?

In this particular context, I think there is no doubt that the use of the word "olam" does not mean for a long (but limited) time.

You are begging the question - simply asserting your conclusion. You need to make an actual argument as to why we cannot see the "national Israel" covenant as time-limited. Please show anything from this text that requires us to see the existence of an eternal covenant between Abraham in specific respect to "genetic" Israel.

As I have argued, the word "owlam" can be read as denoting a limited period of time. So you need to give us some reason to rule that possibility out.

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinthesis if your just going to punch in dumb on liners please stay out of my posts. I have told you before I don't appreciate your one liners. If you would like to participate properly and complete a sentence or two I would love to hear what you have to say. You remind me of a lawyer,,, you love to argue points of law forever but you have no sole.

I find it funny when everthere is a post about gods love, something spirtual or uplifting no one hears from you. Your never in there with the punch.

I trust that when and if you make it into heavin god will give you "A"s or "B"s for how well you argued scripture.. I just wonder what kind of marks you will get for where your heart and sole is at. I think you find it all funny like it's all a game of who knows more. Many of these posts are discussions about endtimes (past or present), salvation, rapture, etc.. people who many not know better are influenced by what you say. Why not say it properly.

Otherwise grow a mustache get a cigar and start doing stand up http://www.topcomedysecrets.com/

Let's see what I did wrong here:

I posted a response to your assertion that Isa 54:17 can be applied the modern day State of Israel. You never responded, but repeated your assertion, so I responded again.

Einstein then replied that 'umimchita' from Isa 54:14 is translated differently than 'terror'. I responded that I was just quoting the KJV and relying on Strong's definition of 'h4288 מחת׆mĕchittah'. Arguing KJV vs. Hebrew Torah will not be productive.

The only DUMB one-liner I have posted in this thread, "Quelle Crack Vous Smokez ?? " is a direct copy-and-paste of something you posted at me in another thread. Do you not appreciate your own one-liners?

I don't believe in getting whipped up into a frenzy over that which we have no control. Regardless of whether your interpretation is the correct one, if you trust in Christ He will soothe much of the anxiety you have over the end times.

 

[Sinthesis]

8. And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God."

Things are not at all as simple as you seem to be suggesting. Consider verse 8 and the reference to the gift of Canaan as an “everlasting†possession. The Hebrew word that is translated as “everlasting†is the word “owlamâ€Â. Note how the definition of this word is fluid – embracing the eternality that would support your position, but also allowing for a reading that does not denote eternality:

Definition (from Net Bible): 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

And here we have an example from Isaiah 42 of this same word used in a context where eternality is certainly not intended:

The LORD emerges like a hero,
like a warrior he inspires himself for battle;
he shouts, yes, he yells,
he shows his enemies his power.
I have been inactive for a long time;
I kept quiet and held back.
Like a woman in labor I groan;
I pant and gasp.
I will make the trees on the mountains and hills wither up;
I will dry up all their vegetation.
I will turn streams into islands,
and dry up pools of water.

Clearly God is talking about talking action after a long period of “inactivityâ€Â. So here, the word “owlam†does not denote an everlasting period of time – it denotes a limited duration of time.

So one cannot simply assume that Genesis 17:8 entails a promise of Canaan to the Israelites forever. That is one reading that needs to be considered, but there are others as well.

By the way, I am not committing, at this point anyway, to saying that I think that 17:8 is saying “Canaan has been given to Israel for a limited timeâ€Â. – I need to think about this further.

However, I believe that I have shown that “everlasting†need not necessarily mean “everlasting†in this context. We have Biblical precedent for a “time-limited†use of “owlamâ€Â.

I may have other arguments to make about the Genesis 17 passage later.

Drew- it is an everlasting possession and an everlasting covenant. Look at the context. Do you think that God is making a brit with Abraham with a limited life expectancy- like a carton of milk?

In this particular context, I think there is no doubt that the use of the word "olam" does not mean for a long (but limited) time.

How does today's Jewish faith resolve 'everlasting possession' with the Assyrian conquest, Babylonian captivity and Roman fueled diaspora? It seems this land has clearly not been in possession of Israel continually ever since the time of Abraham.