The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[Jethro Bodine]

You're right Reba, and that's where my frustration comes from. They recognize the end of the first covenant just like I do. But they fail to make the distinction between what I've been saying right from the beginning, the distinction between the requirements of the law of Moses and the first covenant way to fulfill those requirements. Jesus did not come to establish a new set of requirements. He came to establish a New Covenant--a new way of fulfilling what the law requires.

 

[JLB]

You guys are all saying so close to the the same thing. I hope you all re-read this in a year....without reading who wrote the post.

My perspective differs in that, my goal is to show those in the Church who say we are obligated to no law what so ever, because we are under Grace, that the Law of God has been and will always be for us to keep and do.

as Abraham walked with God it was said of him - Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."


On the other hand, to those in the Church that say we are obligated to keep Moses law, with the feast days, and the Sabbath rules and the food laws, I want to show that the law of Moses has vanished away and become obsolete.

Gentiles were never obligated to keep the law of Moses.

Circumcision was never intended for Gentiles, who did not reside in the land of Israel, as this was the very thing required for those under the law of Moses.

How much more today for those in Christ.

The Conclusion of the matter is: Why would anyone require Gentile Christians to uphold a law that is obsolete, whose foundational requirement is physical circumcision, when it was never applicable to them, when it was in force in the days of Moses?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nicely put. I might add though, how can one uphold something he knows nothing about? Doesn't it behoove us to read and know the Law to be able to spiritually apply it?

But that is what the church thinks you do not have to do in this New Covenant. God instructs you directly without aid of written word or teacher. Not knowing that it is the power of discernment that God gives by his Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, there is nothing that can not be answered in regard to your doctrine. But you're showing once again how you might as well be wearing a Halloween mask when you talk about the truth about the law to the church. They instantly go 'gasp!' when you suggest faith in Christ upholds the law of Moses, not destroys it. From there pure defensiveness closes their ears to anything you say in defense of that, even plain scripture.

Honestly, I really don't have any time for the forums anymore. Coupled with the fact that overcoming the indoctrinations of the church is a pretty futile task to take on these days in the church. And it will continue to get worse, not better. I'm fifty years old and truthfully I'm thinking more about wrapping it up here and preparing for my entry into the kingdom. The church is a mess here and I know that there's really nothing anybody can do about it except save a few souls from the path she's taking.

I thought of all people you'd be one that would recognize the danger of this 'the law is ended' teaching in the church today (for what that means to the church). Every time someone rejects a call to obedience because they're 'not under the law anymore', but under a new 'law' that doesn't really require their obedience, because salvation is by grace not works, you can begin to understand how important this subject really is.

How sad. How truly sad.

Come Lord Jesus, come!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My perspective differs in that, my goal is to show those in the Church who say we are obligated to no law what so ever, because we are under Grace, that the Law of God has been and will always be for us to keep and do.

as Abraham walked with God it was said of him - Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."


On the other hand, to those in the Church that say we are obligated to keep Moses law, with the feast days, and the Sabbath rules and the food laws, I want to show that the law of Moses has vanished away and become obsolete.

Gentiles were never obligated to keep the law of Moses.

Circumcision was never intended for Gentiles, who did not reside in the land of Israel, as this was the very thing required for those under the law of Moses.

How much more today for those in Christ.

The Conclusion of the matter is: Why would anyone require Gentile Christians to uphold a law that is obsolete, whose foundational requirement is physical circumcision, when it was never applicable to them, when it was in force in the days of Moses?


JLB

Should I really continue to talk to someone who refuses to hear me say over and over again that this is NOT about obeying the literal observances of the first covenant?????

Why, why, why do you insist on only hearing the law argument as, 'they're trying to make us obey the Sabbath and Festival cycle of the law of Moses'.

How frustrating.

Take a good hard look at how defensive and blinded the church is about this matter.


(By the way, it's interesting how you forget that Abraham was required to be physically circumcised and then say it was never intended for gentiles....as if this is about literal circumcision anyway.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lock 'er up, Reba! It's futile, lol.

 

[JLB]

Should I really continue to talk to someone who refuses to hear me say over and over again that this is NOT about obeying the literal observances of the first covenant?????

Why, why, why do you insist on only hearing the law argument as, 'they're trying to make us obey the Sabbath and Festival cycle of the law of Moses'.

How frustrating.

Take a good hard look at how defensive and blinded the church is about this matter.


(By the way, it's interesting how you forget that Abraham was required to be physically circumcised and then say it was never intended for gentiles....as if this is about literal circumcision anyway.)

I know and have acknowledged that you are not advocating that we are to keep the literal law of Moses.

But what you refuse to acknowledge, is my statement that Gentiles were never required to keep Moses law.

I am using circumcision to illustrate the truth of my statement.

So, now would be a good time for you to clear up any misconceptions that I may have, by simply answering this question.

In your opinion do you believe that Gentiles living outside of Israel were ever required to uphold or the keep the law of Moses.

Yes or No.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know and have acknowledged that you are not advocating that we are to keep the literal law of Moses.

But what you refuse to acknowledge, is my statement that Gentiles were never required to keep Moses law.

I am using circumcision to illustrate the truth of my statement.

The command to be circumcised as a condition for covenant with God was given to Abraham. 'Gentiles were never required to keep Moses law' is false.

So, now would be a good time for you to clear up any misconceptions that I may have, by simply answering this question.

In your opinion do you believe that Gentiles living outside of Israel were ever required to uphold or the keep the law of Moses.

Yes or No.


JLB

Yes.

If any gentile wanted to be joined to the people of God the same law applied to them.

 

[JLB]

The command to be circumcised as a condition for covenant with God was given to Abraham. 'Gentiles were never required to keep Moses law' is false.



Yes.

If any gentile wanted to be joined to the people of God the same law applied to them.

Now you know why you are frustrated.

Because of your own stubbornness to acknowledge the simple truth.

You know very well what the question is!!!

The question has nothing to do with Gentiles living in the land of Israel.

One more time, Jethro.

In your opinion do you believe that Gentiles living outside of Israel were ever required to uphold or the keep the law of Moses?

More specifically -

People in Persia, living in Persia during the time of Moses, who have never been to Israel, who never will come to Israel, is Moses law applicable to them?


Even more specific -

UNCIRCUMCISED Persians, living in Persia during the time of Moses, who have never been to Israel, who never will come to Israel, who will never be circumcised, are they required to uphold the law of Moses?

Please answer Yes or No.

 

[Sinthesis]

The command to be circumcised as a condition for covenant with God was given to Abraham. 'Gentiles were never required to keep Moses law' is false.



Yes.

If any gentile wanted to be joined to the people of God the same law applied to them.

That is like claiming you are required to keep Mexican law because it prohibits murder, even if you are not Mexican and have never been to Mexico.

Gentiles were perhaps subject to a law unto themselves which also prohibited murder, so that they were without excuse before God, but it was not Moses' law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now you know why you are frustrated.

Because of your own stubbornness to acknowledge the simple truth.

You know very well what the question is!!!

The question has nothing to do with Gentiles living in the land of Israel.

One more time, Jethro.

In your opinion do you believe that Gentiles living outside of Israel were ever required to uphold or the keep the law of Moses?

More specifically -

People in Persia, living in Persia during the time of Moses, who have never been to Israel, who never will come to Israel, is Moses law applicable to them?


Even more specific -

UNCIRCUMCISED Persians, living in Persia during the time of Moses, who have never been to Israel, who never will come to Israel, who will never be circumcised, are they required to uphold the law of Moses?

Please answer Yes or No.

I answered your question but you immediately decided 'being joined to the people of God' meant living in the land of Israel. And worse, you completely ignore the fact that God required circumcision as a condition of being in covenant with him before there even was a nation of Israel.

You have read the law, right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is like claiming you are required to keep Mexican law because it prohibits murder, even if you are not Mexican and have never been to Mexico.

And what you believe is like claiming you can be an American citizen living abroad and thinking you are completely and totally free of the laws governing United States citizens. But when it comes time to reap the benefits and privileges of being a US citizen you're first in line to receive those benefits and privileges.

If this doesn't illustrate the present thinking of the church nothing does.

What are you afraid of, that all this means someone's going to make you keep Sabbath? What are you afraid of?

Gentiles were perhaps subject to a law unto themselves which also prohibited murder, so that they were without excuse before God, but it was not Moses' law.

Somebody please explain to me how 'do not murder' suddenly is not the law of Moses outside of the nation of Israel. And if you can't do that, explain to me how when I 'do not murder' that DOESN'T uphold (not violate) the law of Moses.

All you people have to do is show me how believing in Christ and walking by the fruit of the Spirit doesn't uphold the requirements of the law of Moses. Don't show me how it puts an end to the first covenant way of upholding the requirements of the law of Moses. I already know that. So it's simple, just show me how I have violated the requirements of the law when I believe and walk in the Spirit. Paul says I have fufilled ALL the law when I do that:

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NIV)

"13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:13-14 NIV)

But you people are so sure this isn't true. So explain why you're right, and Paul is wrong.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, do you think uncircumcised believers in Persia, or Canada, or the United States, or Figi are not upholding the requirement of the law of Moses to be circumcised?

I'm not asking you if they are upholding the first covenant way to uphold the requirement for circumcision. That we already know. I'm asking if they have satisfied the lawful requirement to be circumcised by their belief and obedience in Christ? Here's some help:

"26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." (Romans 2:26-29 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have pretty much ignored every point that I have made and the wonderfully worded post of Deborah, who by the way explained that -

legally the Law of Moses is a contract. It is not made void/nullified, but it is obsolete because it was fulfilled. A contract that has been fulfilled is not voided or annulled but it is obsolete (no longer in use).

Every time I have listed a scripture that contradicted your opinion, you change the subject and refuse to address it.

Remember, I have stated that the commandments and precepts and laws of God were seen in the law of Moses and were in force before Moses was born.

Those laws, we are obligated to abide by, as Abraham did.

I also stated the the most important requirement that Abraham fulfilled was to obey His Voice that said walk before Me and be blameless.

This was spoken and fulfilled 430 years before the law of Moses.

Now, the question is: Are Gentiles "under the law of Moses", and obligated to keep all that is written in the law of Moses?

Romans 2 -

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law...

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,..

Gentile who do not have the law of Moses, BY NATURE, express the righteous standard of obedience to God and HIS LAW, show that the presence of God is working in them to do what is right.

Gentiles who are not under the law, nor do they have the law of Moses, prove by their obedience to HIS invisible workings within them, that His Spirit, is able to led them and guide them in the way of righteous living, even though they have never been given the law of Moses.

God's righteous standards and requirements for living morally and righteously, some of which were displayed in the law of Moses, and were in the earth before Moses.


Paul speaking to his brethren after flesh, JEWS -

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

you who are called a Jew! Paul is specifically addressing the Jews in this part of his letter.

Romans 3 -

1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The Jews were under the law of Moses, Gentiles are not!

Gentiles are under the law of God that was in the earth from the time of Adam.

The law of Moses was applied to the Jews, as Paul was addressing the Jews.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law... The Jews were under the law of Moses!

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

Abraham walked in the righteousness APART FROM THE LAW OF MOSES.

ABRAHAM WAS NOT UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES.


Paul still addressing the Jews and teaching them from the Torah the importance of the principle of faith.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,

30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. We here is a reference to Jews!

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? Romans 4:1

Paul is referring to the Jews who are under the law, when he says - we establish the law.


Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,


JLB

Wonderful.

Now explain what I asked you to. Why do Jews have to uphold the law, since you say Romans 3:31 is specifically addressed to them, not gentiles, but then quote Paul as to the curse of keeping the law when you talk about gentiles and them being 'under' the law?

Simple question. If you want to say you explained this before, I didn't understand your explanation (so much so I don't even know where you tried to explain it). So just reword your explanation in a short paragraph.

 

[JLB]

I answered your question but you immediately decided 'being joined to the people of God' meant living in the land of Israel. And worse, you completely ignore the fact that God required circumcision as a condition of being in covenant with him before there even was a nation of Israel.

You have read the law, right?

UNCIRCUMCISED Persians, living in Persia during the time of Moses, who have never been to Israel, who never will come to Israel, who will never be circumcised, are they required to uphold the law of Moses?

Please answer Yes or No.

 

[JLB]

JLB, do you think uncircumcised believers in Persia, or Canada, or the United States, or Figi are not upholding the requirement of the law of Moses to be circumcised?

I'm not asking you if they are upholding the first covenant way to uphold the requirement for circumcision. That we already know. I'm asking if they have satisfied the lawful requirement to be circumcised by their belief and obedience in Christ? Here's some help:

"26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." (Romans 2:26-29 NIV)

The law of Moses was added to the Covenant with Abraham.

The whole law of Moses with all of the literal requirements of Feasts, and Tabernacle, Sabbaths, Levitical Priests as well as food laws and circumcision.
This law of Moses was specific to the Children of Israel, the literal offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
This law of Moses was not upheld by Gentiles living in Persia.

This whole complete law with ALL it's literal requirements was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, UNTIL the Seed should come.

This whole complete law with ALL it's literal requirements has vanished away, and been replaced by the New Covenant.
Many of the precepts and statutes and commanments and laws that were seen in the law of Moses, and most likely were the laws and precepts and statutes and laws that God taught Abraham to walk in, continued into the New Covenant we are in today.
Abraham learned and was enabled to walk in the commandments and precepts and statues and laws, because he obeyed His Voice to walk with God and be blameless.No Gentile living outside of Israel was ever required to uphold Moses Law that was given to the children of Israel for the land of Israel.

What the law of Moses says, it says to those who are under the law of Moses.

Whatever the law of the Lord says, it says to those under the law of the Lord.

Whatever the law of Switzerland says, it says to those who are under the law of Switzerland, living in the land of Switzerland.


Are you obligated to uphold the laws of Switzerland?


JLB

 

[reba]

The land does not did not make one an Israelite. They were Israelites by birth, adoption and even choice.

 

[JLB]

The land does not did not make one an Israelite. They were Israelites by birth, adoption and even choice.

The Israelites were not required to uphold the law of Moses while in Egypt, even though they were Israelites.

The Israelites were required to keep and do all of the law of Moses, when it was given to them from mount Sinai, even before they crossed into the Promised Land, which is why they had the Tabernacle.

The Gentiles of other nations, were never required to uphold Moses Law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

UNCIRCUMCISED Persians, living in Persia during the time of Moses, who have never been to Israel, who never will come to Israel, who will never be circumcised, are they required to uphold the law of Moses?

Please answer Yes or No.

Yes.

If you wanted to be a Jew then, you had to submit to the law of Moses. Why do you think it was an issue after the resurrection when the gentiles started filling the church?

During this time before the resurrection, but after the giving of law, was the requirement for circumcision given to Abraham for those who wanted to be in covenant with God somehow nullified?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of Moses was added to the Covenant with Abraham.

The whole law of Moses with all of the literal requirements of Feasts, and Tabernacle, Sabbaths, Levitical Priests as well as food laws and circumcision.
This law of Moses was specific to the Children of Israel, the literal offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Name some of these requirements that do not get upheld by faith in Christ and walking in the Spirit, okay? (Let's not forget what my argument is that you disagree with).

This law of Moses was not upheld by Gentiles living in Persia.

This whole complete law with ALL it's literal requirements was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, UNTIL the Seed should come.

The WAY of the law of Moses to serve God was added. That is what gets laid aside by faith in Christ, not the requirements themselves. I've been saying this right from the start. Reread the Romans 2 passage I posted this morning if you still disagree with making the distinction between the way of the law of Moses and the requirements of the law of Moses. I didn't pull this teaching out of my hat. (I have the feeling you won't respond any further with this and it'll be up to me to show it to you.)

This whole complete law with ALL it's literal requirements has vanished away, and been replaced by the New Covenant.
Many of the precepts and statutes and commanments and laws that were seen in the law of Moses, and most likely were the laws and precepts and statutes and laws that God taught Abraham to walk in, continued into the New Covenant we are in today.
Abraham learned and was enabled to walk in the commandments and precepts and statues and laws, because he obeyed His Voice to walk with God and be blameless.

It's foolish to think that ALL the literal requirements of the law of Moses have vanished away. You still have not explained how 'do not steal' vanished away with the law of Moses...except that the WAY we keep that requirement has vanished away. My doctrine is the only one that makes sense. Your's doesn't. It's foolish to think that somehow 'do not steal' is not a requirement of the law of Moses. I'd be embarrassed to tell someone that. Worse yet to insist it vanished away. What you're arguing for is the WAY of upholding that requirement vanished away. Reba is right, and I made the observation, too. You and Deb are arguing for the vanishing away of the WAY of the law of Moses, not the requirements of the law of Moses. (Don't forget to list the laws of Moses that faith in Christ does not uphold, okay?)

No Gentile living outside of Israel was ever required to uphold Moses Law that was given to the children of Israel for the land of Israel.

And somehow in your doctrine Abraham doesn't count as a gentile doing what the law of Moses required. And that when the law of Moses was codified the requirement given to Abraham for gentiles to be circumcised to be in covenant with God went away. Bad, bad doctrine.

What the law of Moses says, it says to those who are under the law of Moses.

Yes, you have to know the law of Moses to be 'under' it as you are using that word. Romans 2 talks about gentiles who had no knowledge of the law of Moses, not didn't have to be under the law of Moses. Read it.

Whatever the law of the Lord says, it says to those under the law of the Lord.

How can a gentile who does not know what the law says, because he does not have the law, be 'under' that law (as you use the word 'under')?

Whatever the law of Switzerland says, it says to those who are under the law of Switzerland, living in the land of Switzerland.

Are you obligated to uphold the laws of Switzerland?

JLB

If I wanted to be a citizen of the commonwealth of Switzerland, then, 'yes', of course I am obligated to uphold the laws of Switzerland.


Now, I'm going to repost all the questions I asked you in my morning posts if you do not answer them. So, get crackin'!