Jethro Bodine
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Law, works and keeping his comandments
- Thread starter josefnospam
- Start date
What is ridiculous is for you to insinuate that I said that, or that I believe that.
Now you are slinging MUD!
Why?
I have always said the God's laws were "seen" within the law of Moses, such as You shall have no God's before me.
You shall not covet. Which you not not keep, unless you have a change in nature.
Here is an analogy:
Picture a house. The roof of the house represents God's lawn for all mankind.
Now picture a large table being added to the house. The table represents the law of Moses, of which the children of Israel were under till the seed should come.
Now the Table is removed and we are all still under the roof. God's law.
JLB
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Yeah, grasping.
Horrible interpretation.
As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.
The problem with your understanding is: you seem to think the law of Moses was just the 10 commandments.
It is all of the specific requirements as listed in the book of Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, and Numbers as well as the requirements for punishment, as well as the food laws and Sabbaths and feast days.
You don't get to separate the punishment for not observing the Sabbath from the law to keep the Sabbath.
You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Exodus 31:14
JLB
Deborah13
Member
No you do not uphold the Law of Moses, you uphold the Law of God not to murder, the Law that was from the beginning. You uphold it the same WAY that Abraham did. Through faith in the "SEED".
Galatians 3:19
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
The Law of Moses was only until the Seed came. Jesus came. The promise made with Abraham was to his "Seed" Jesus.
Jesus, being born a Jew under the Law of Moses fulfilled the Law of Moses, perfectly, as well as the whole Torah and the Prophets, where they spoke of Him.
Not all the 613 laws included in the Law of Moses were eternal laws. They were only given until the Seed should come.
However, all the eternal laws of God, I believe were included in the Law of Moses.
James, when he is talking to the Jews clearly explains that the Law of Moses is a contract with many requirements and if they failed in one requirement they had broken the whole contract. They had not yet fulfilled the whole contract. Only Jesus fulfilled the whole contract by the way He lived, sinless, He never broke failed in one single requirement. In His death He fulfilled the sacrifice for the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death was before the Law of Moses, was it not?
Did Abraham place Isaac on the altar and God provided a ram?
I'm sorry, you will have to give me the scripture. Sometimes Paul is referring to the Law of Moses, Torah, or the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is eternal. example, the flood.
jasoncran
Member
the law of moses is the torah. moses gave the account the word torah means teaching. adam, cain and abel all had a torah. that is from the jewish definition of the word torah. the torah today is the first five books of the bible. they teach us about sin, why we are here, why the world is the way it is. and how to repent of it. while the means has changed. the how too in that leads to the cross, but the torah points to the GOD who gave it as being the being who forgave you.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Romans 3:31 NASB
"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."
Jethro Bodine
Member
How do you come to this conclusion? I've been showing how faith in Christ fulfills all the law of Moses. I even talked about the priesthood and how Hebrews shows us Jesus fulfilled the duties of the Son of the High Priest and the Day of Atonement, not destroyed them. At the same time, the author of Hebrews talks about how the old way of fulfilling those duties is set aside.
We are still required to fulfill the requirement for Rest. And everyone who does not do that will in fact die in the judgment. The requirement for rest did not go away.
What you're not getting is we fulfill that requirement for Rest in the new way of the New Covenant, not in the old way of the old covenant. The old way of satisfying the requirement for rest was not working on a literal day of the week. The new way of keeping the lawful requirement for Rest is having faith in Christ, being filled with the Holy Spirit as a result, and then walking in the obedience of the Holy Spirit (the fruit of the Spirit) and resting from our evil works.
The lawful requirement for rest did not go away. The old covenant way of fulfilling it did. This is an example of how Jesus can say he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, but then also say that nothing will 'disappear' from the law until the accomplishment occurs (but still preserve what he just said, that he did not come to destroy the law). This is what Paul means when he says faith upholds the law. Faith in Christ did not take away the lawful requirement for Sabbath Rest. It upholds it, but in the new way of the Holy Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ.
"...we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6 NIV
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Jethro Bodine
Member
This all sounds wonderful, but you still have the problem of the Bible plainly saying faith upholds the law. And the problem of explaining how that only applies to Jews...but then turn right around and use Galatians to explain how anyone still under the law is a slave. A slave that does not inherit the kingdom that only sons do. It doesn't add up.
The only reasonable explanation, and conclusion to come to is faith upholds the law of Moses, but in the new way of faith in Christ and walking in the fruit of the Spirit. No doctrinal gymnastics are required for this simple, easily demonstrable, Biblical teaching.
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4
Whose doctrine is this?
Whose words are these?
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar--
the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage...
Who wrote this?
A.] Gentiles were never ever obligated to keep the law of Moses, uphold the law of Moses, establish the law of Moses, EVER!!!
B.] Those who were under the law of Moses, Christ redeemed so that they have becomes sons.
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 2 Corinthians 3:11-13
Paul wrote this, not me. You can talk to him about you mixed up doctrine.
JLB
No scripture!
Write out the scripture, don't add to it or explain it, let the scripture speak for itself.
JLB
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
Gentiles, who do not have the law...
Gentiles are not obligated to the law of Moses.
Gentiles, who do not have the law...
Gentiles are not obligated to the law of Moses.
To be under the Law means you are obligated to keep all of the law of Moses.
"‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’"Deuteronomy 27:26
To be under the Law means you have to keep it all. In Paul said, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'” Galatians 3:10
That is what it means to be under the Law.
Gentiles were never "under the law of Moses.
The law of Moses was for the children of Israel, in the land of israel.
These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses. Leviticus 26:46
"‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’"Deuteronomy 27:26
To be under the Law means you have to keep it all. In Paul said, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'” Galatians 3:10
That is what it means to be under the Law.
Gentiles were never "under the law of Moses.
The law of Moses was for the children of Israel, in the land of israel.
These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses. Leviticus 26:46
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The thought is the Law had been done away with and that means it was replaced with NOTHING. That is only part of a scripture though.
The law is fulfilled by walking after the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit has a much higher standard than the law.
The honor of God in the body of Christ is appalling. People go to church when they want, they help when it's convenient, Being late for work is OK, the list goes on. People wonder where is the blessing and power of God in their life. No wonder they write books that God only sometimes answers prayer yes, no or maybe, because that is all they see from God in life.
Pro_28:20 A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.
My wife working today in the kitchen to serve a whole bunch of visiting ministers today after the nights service (Week of Increase) Everything had to be perfect. All the glasses and silverware had to be polished, the napkins folded a certain way, the tables set up with a tape measure to measure how far from the edge of the table everything sits. These are God's ministers we are feeding and I learned just how serious it is to God to take His things serious and his people serious.
I got part of a revelation today of why some things are not happening in my own life at the level I want them to happen. Honor and faithfulness and if you think that is putting us under a law, then you don't understand just how big the blessings of God can be.
I am not saying I understand it all (YET) I am saying I got some answers as to why certain things I was told by the Lord YEARS AGO..... have not happened, and it has nothing to do with my lack of faith.......
whoever is faithful in little (ALL THINGS IN YOUR LIFE LITTLE) will be given more and be faithful the greater things.
Mike.
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The thought is the Law had been done away with and that means it was replaced with NOTHING. That is only part of a scripture though.
The law is fulfilled by walking after the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit has a much higher standard than the law.
The honor of God in the body of Christ is appalling. People go to church when they want, they help when it's convenient, Being late for work is OK, the list goes on. People wonder where is the blessing and power of God in their life. No wonder they write books that God only sometimes answers prayer yes, no or maybe, because that is all they see from God in life.
Pro_28:20 A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.
My wife working today in the kitchen to serve a whole bunch of visiting ministers today after the nights service (Week of Increase) Everything had to be perfect. All the glasses and silverware had to be polished, the napkins folded a certain way, the tables set up with a tape measure to measure how far from the edge of the table everything sits. These are God's ministers we are feeding and I learned just how serious it is to God to take His things serious and his people serious.
I got part of a revelation today of why some things are not happening in my own life at the level I want them to happen. Honor and faithfulness and if you think that is putting us under a law, then you don't understand just how big the blessings of God can be.
I am not saying I understand it all (YET) I am saying I got some answers as to why certain things I was told by the Lord YEARS AGO..... have not happened, and it has nothing to do with my lack of faith.......
whoever is faithful in little (ALL THINGS IN YOUR LIFE LITTLE) will be given more and be faithful the greater things.
Mike.
Deborah13
Member
This is the second time.....
No you do not uphold the Law of Moses, you uphold the Law of God not to murder, the Law that was from the beginning. You uphold it the same WAY that Abraham did. Through faith in the "SEED".
I also had done a long post, that you never addressed at all. That I tried to explain that legally the Law of Moses is a contract. It is not made void/nullified, but it is obsolete because it was fulfilled. A contract that has been fulfilled is not voided or annulled but it is obsolete (no longer in use).
Jethro Bodine
Member
I already showed why the law that gets upheld can not be, grammatically, some other law. Even JLB knows that Paul is saying the law that gets upheld in Romans 3:31 is the law of Moses. But he says he's only speaking to the Jews who have the law. But then he goes on to discourse about how believers are set free from the law and not under the law, and cursed is everyone who keeps the law.
Prolly can't get into any real depth with this until Saturday.
It's okay to say that when you are walking in the Spirit that you are upholding, not destroying, the law of Moses. There's no reason to be afraid to say that. As we see, Paul says faith upholds the law of Moses. What we are to be resisting is the first covenant way of upholding the requirements of the law of Moses.
Nicely put. I might add though, how can one uphold something he knows nothing about? Doesn't it behoove us to read and know the Law to be able to spiritually apply it?
You have pretty much ignored every point that I have made and the wonderfully worded post of Deborah, who by the way explained that -
legally the Law of Moses is a contract. It is not made void/nullified, but it is obsolete because it was fulfilled. A contract that has been fulfilled is not voided or annulled but it is obsolete (no longer in use).
Every time I have listed a scripture that contradicted your opinion, you change the subject and refuse to address it.
Remember, I have stated that the commandments and precepts and laws of God were seen in the law of Moses and were in force before Moses was born.
Those laws, we are obligated to abide by, as Abraham did.
I also stated the the most important requirement that Abraham fulfilled was to obey His Voice that said walk before Me and be blameless.
This was spoken and fulfilled 430 years before the law of Moses.
Now, the question is: Are Gentiles "under the law of Moses", and obligated to keep all that is written in the law of Moses?
Romans 2 -
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law...
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,..
Gentile who do not have the law of Moses, BY NATURE, express the righteous standard of obedience to God and HIS LAW, show that the presence of God is working in them to do what is right.
Gentiles who are not under the law, nor do they have the law of Moses, prove by their obedience to HIS invisible workings within them, that His Spirit, is able to led them and guide them in the way of righteous living, even though they have never been given the law of Moses.
God's righteous standards and requirements for living morally and righteously, some of which were displayed in the law of Moses, and were in the earth before Moses.
Paul speaking to his brethren after flesh, JEWS -
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
you who are called a Jew! Paul is specifically addressing the Jews in this part of his letter.
Romans 3 -
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The Jews were under the law of Moses, Gentiles are not!
Gentiles are under the law of God that was in the earth from the time of Adam.
The law of Moses was applied to the Jews, as Paul was addressing the Jews.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law... The Jews were under the law of Moses!
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
Abraham walked in the righteousness APART FROM THE LAW OF MOSES.
ABRAHAM WAS NOT UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES.
Paul still addressing the Jews and teaching them from the Torah the importance of the principle of faith.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. We here is a reference to Jews!
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? Romans 4:1
Paul is referring to the Jews who are under the law, when he says - we establish the law.
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,
JLB
Great post Deb.
Very well worded.
This part probably sides more with what Jethro believes, however I will have to say that I agree with what you are saying here for the most part.
Well said!
legally the Law of Moses is a contract. It is not made void/nullified, but it is obsolete because it was fulfilled. A contract that has been fulfilled is not voided or annulled but it is obsolete (no longer in use).
JLB
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