The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[WIP]

Just a note of caution. Please remember to stick to the topic of the discussion and avoid making personal statements. Telling someone else what their state of emotion is or what they mean is judgmental, easily inaccurate, and can take the discussion downhill. Ask for clarification, seek out understanding, and work toward finding common ground to agreement. Who knows? We may actually discover that it is our self that is in error.

 

[reba]

Thanks WIP i was heading here to say the same.... well sorta the same

 

[JLB]

JLB, there is nothing that can not be answered in regard to your doctrine. But you're showing once again how you might as well be wearing a Halloween mask when you talk about the truth about the law to the church. They instantly go 'gasp!' when you suggest faith in Christ upholds the law of Moses, not destroys it. From there pure defensiveness closes their ears to anything you say in defense of that, even plain scripture.

Honestly, I really don't have any time for the forums anymore. Coupled with the fact that overcoming the indoctrinations of the church is a pretty futile task to take on these days in the church. And it will continue to get worse, not better. I'm fifty years old and truthfully I'm thinking more about wrapping it up here and preparing for my entry into the kingdom. The church is a mess here and I know that there's really nothing anybody can do about it except save a few souls from the path she's taking.

I thought of all people you'd be one that would recognize the danger of this 'the law is ended' teaching in the church today (for what that means to the church). Every time someone rejects a call to obedience because they're 'not under the law anymore', but under a new 'law' that doesn't really require their obedience, because salvation is by grace not works, you can begin to understand how important this subject really is.

How sad. How truly sad.

Come Lord Jesus, come!

Ok, Brother. I hear you. That is why I keep telling you how awesome I think your message is.

In addition I have also said many times that you have the very best post on any Internet Forum site.

I don't want you to be discouraged as I have said, we agree on 99%.

Every time someone rejects a call to obedience because they're 'not under the law anymore', but under a new 'law' that doesn't really require their obedience, because salvation is by grace not works,

We are all under God's law.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The WAY of the law of Moses to serve God was added. That is what gets laid aside by faith in Christ, not the requirements themselves. I've been saying this right from the start. Reread the Romans 2 passage I posted this morning if you still disagree with making the distinction between the way of the law of Moses and the requirements of the law of Moses. I didn't pull this teaching out of my hat. (I have the feeling you won't respond any further with this and it'll be up to me to show it to you.)

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;

There is no Way of the law of Moses to serve God.

It simple says the Law was added, until.

You added some language to the scriptures themselves.

Just read what Paul says -

the law was added until the Seed should come...

If you agree that the Seed has come, then you have to agree with the first part of the verse that says added until.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;

There is no Way of the law of Moses to serve God.

It simple says the Law was added, until.

You added some language to the scriptures themselves.

Just read what Paul says -

the law was added until the Seed should come...

If you agree that the Seed has come, then you have to agree with the first part of the verse that says added until.

JLB

Was 'do not murder' added? Was 'do not steal' added? Was 'love your neighbor as yourself' added? No. Even you agree those were not added, but were already generally known to men, including the gentiles. What was added was the specific first covenant structure and system and way for worshiping and serving and obeying God. Besides an actual written code of God's moral law, that way and system of worship is what was given to the Israelites that the gentiles were not given and were therefore not held accountable to (you can't be held accountable to something you do not have knowledge about).

Did 'do not murder' get set aside with the coming of Christ? Did 'do not steal' get set aside with the coming of Christ? Was 'love your neighbor as yourself' set aside with the appearing of Christ? No. The system and structure and way of worshiping and serving and obeying God is what got added, and then set aside with the coming of Christ.

Paul is saying that the system and way of the first covenant was added because of transgression. Even though the giving of a codified law takes the debate out of the right and wrong of man's behavior for both Jew and gentile and makes sense in regard to being added 'because of transgression', it is the system and way of approaching God in worship that particularly supports the doctrine that the thing that was added (because of transgression) and then taken away was the system and way of dealing with that transgression. Think about it. If you're not grasping what I'm saying I'll be glad to reword it. It's important.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is your take on 'added because of transgression'? What does that mean according to your doctrine?

It makes sense to add a system of dealing with sin 'because of transgression'. Especially when you consider that it is those laws that fill the description of 'being added' and then 'taken away' since we know that can't be said of 'do not murder', 'do not steal', etc. (The condemnation of those laws can.)

 

[JLB]

What is your take on 'added because of transgression'? What does that mean according to your doctrine?

It makes sense to add a system of dealing with sin 'because of transgression'. Especially when you consider that it is those laws that fill the description of 'being added' and then 'taken away' since we know that can't be said of 'do not murder', 'do not steal', etc. (The condemnation of those laws can.)

What was added was the law of Moses.

That includes all the commandments, all the feast days and associated Sabbaths, all the specific sacrifices for specific sins, all the ordinances for ceremonial washings, all the priestly requirements as well as the specifics duties to maintain the tabernacle as well as the temple. All the punishments of death that were required for keeping the Sabbath or for Adultery or for blaspheming God...


All of those things together as a system made up the law of Moses.

This was added to the Abrahamic Covenant for the purpose of the natural offspring of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, could continue in the blessings of Abraham.

Because of their time spent in Egypt they had transgressed the Covenant Stipulations that God had given to the Abraham to walk before Him and be blameless in relationship.

In relationship with Him, His presence would continually rest upon Abraham and he would instruct and teach and keep Abraham continually.

The children of Israel had lost this in Egypt after Joseph, as they become hard hearted and began to only know the gods of Egypt.

They had grown strong and great in number, but to take the Promised land away from the giants they would certainly need the Blessing of Abraham to be victorious.

So God gave them the law with specific guidelines to keep, and a system of animal sacrifices to maintain what Abraham had with God, even though they said -

Then they said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die." Exodus 20:19

This was not so with Abraham. Abraham obeyed His Voice directly and received the life giving benefit of His Spirit.

Without the blessing of Abraham upon them, the children of Israel were no match for the Giants in the promise land.

20 "Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. Exodus 23:20-22


I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries...

This is saying the same as I will curse those who curse you.

The law of Moses is a complete covenant agreement that can not be broken apart, as Jesus said. not one jot or tittle.

When the law of Moses vanished away, what remained is the existing Abrahamic Covenant, together with the fresh new additions of the New Covenant, which include, but are not limited to, a new nature that is compatible with God as well as the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit.

Even the laws in the Law of Moses, as specific as they were, are inadequate to express the true nature of the laws of Gods Kingdom as expressed by Jesus in Matthew 5.

It takes a divine nature together with the Holy Spirit's Power to walk in God's Kingdom laws.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What is lacking in the Church today, is clear teaching about relationship with God for each person.

Today everyone seems to be content to let the Pastor have a relationship with God, they way the children of Israel were content to let Moses have a relationship with God and instruct them.

The Church is more like the Children of Israel under Moses than you think.

Paul labored greatly to bring a balanced teaching to us about these things.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Today everyone seems to be content to let the Pastor have a relationship with God, they way the children of Israel were content to let Moses have a relationship with God and instruct them.

The Church is more like the Children of Israel under Moses than you think.

JLB

But with the added advantage of there being no weight of responsibility of obedience, lol.

"Think for me, ...and take away all this talk about the necessity of obedient repentance."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What was added was the law of Moses.

That includes all the commandments, all the feast days and associated Sabbaths, all the specific sacrifices for specific sins, all the ordinances for ceremonial washings, all the priestly requirements as well as the specifics duties to maintain the tabernacle as well as the temple. All the punishments of death that were required for keeping the Sabbath or for Adultery or for blaspheming God...


All of those things together as a system made up the law of Moses.

This is what I've been saying. It was a system, a way, of relating to God.

And while you're talking about the ways of that system, which ones don't get fulfilled by faith in Christ? Don't lose sight of my argument.

This was added to the Abrahamic Covenant for the purpose of the natural offspring of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, could continue in the blessings of Abraham.

Because of their time spent in Egypt they had transgressed the Covenant Stipulations that God had given to the Abraham to walk before Him and be blameless in relationship.

Again, you're referring to the way that was added, not the fundamental requirements of law those added things sought to uphold. The way went away, not that which the way sought to uphold.

Even you agree that the requirements given to Abraham didn't change. The system and structure of worship and how those requirements were to be communicated to God's people, and how transgressions against those requirements were to be judged and atoned for was added. And which we know to have been taken away in this New Covenant, while the requirements for obedience themselves remain.

In relationship with Him, His presence would continually rest upon Abraham and he would instruct and teach and keep Abraham continually.

The children of Israel had lost this in Egypt after Joseph, as they become hard hearted and began to only know the gods of Egypt.

They had grown strong and great in number, but to take the Promised land away from the giants they would certainly need the Blessing of Abraham to be victorious.

So God gave them the law with specific guidelines to keep, and a system of animal sacrifices to maintain what Abraham had with God, even though they said -

Then they said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die." Exodus 20:19

This was not so with Abraham. Abraham obeyed His Voice directly and received the life giving benefit of His Spirit.

Without the blessing of Abraham upon them, the children of Israel were no match for the Giants in the promise land.

20 "Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. Exodus 23:20-22


I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries...

This is saying the same as I will curse those who curse you.

Sounds good, but we know the way of the law did not, and could not do this. Never could. So I question the validity of your thoughts here. Paul says it was actually given to increase trespass, not rein it in. The law did not give the life you are claiming it was given for. The requirements upheld by the law do. The way of the law itself can not. That's why the way went away, not that which the way upholds.

The law of Moses is a complete covenant agreement that can not be broken apart, as Jesus said. not one jot or tittle.

But so many people who quote the passage leave the part out about the fulfillment being the one of two requirements that must be met before something can disappear from the law. He's not saying it can't happen. He's saying one of two conditions must be met before that will happen. And we know he's not talking about an end to the law as the church understands and defends that ('I don't have to do what the law says because it's gone') because he just got done saying he did not come to destroy the law of Moses and the prophets.

When the law of Moses vanished away, what remained is the existing Abrahamic Covenant, together with the fresh new additions of the New Covenant, which include, but are not limited to, a new nature that is compatible with God as well as the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit.

Even the laws in the Law of Moses, as specific as they were, are inadequate to express the true nature of the laws of Gods Kingdom as expressed by Jesus in Matthew 5.

It takes a divine nature together with the Holy Spirit's Power to walk in God's Kingdom laws.

JLB

What you do, like so many others in the church, is instantly add the negative connotation of law in the church today to any and all discussion about the law. That is the indoctrination I've been talking about that grips the church in these last days and which makes the law the four letter word of the faith. But this negative connotation is instantly abolished when you consider that the Bible plainly says in more than one place that it is the law that gets upheld and fulfilled by our faith in Jesus Christ and our obedience according to the Spirit. But the church says it gets removed by our faith in Jesus Christ.

A diligent read of Hebrews will show that it is the way of the law, the first covenant way of relating to God, that gets removed through faith in Jesus Christ, not the requirements of the law itself. If you do not believe that then tell me which laws do not get fulfilled by our faith in Christ and our obedience to walk in the Spirit? Which ones? I showed you where Paul said ALL the law gets fulfilled by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't want to let you point about 'all the law' slip away. This is one of a couple of misunderstandings you have about the law of Moses.

The 'all or nothing' of the law of Moses is in regard to trying to be justified by the law of Moses, not whether or not you obey what the law requires by believing in Christ and walking by the Spirit (which, by the way, is another point you're not getting fully).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This point about the law being bad is what the Messianics home in on in their discussions with the church. I was gripped by this misunderstanding, too.

The WAY of the law and relating to God through a sense of law is what is bad, not the requirements of the law themselves. It's impossible to argue that forgiveness of sin, mercy, judgment, and moral behavior are bad. It's the way of the first covenant in serving these things that is wrong and wholly unfitting for sinful man. But in the church's zeal to cast out that way they have also foolishly cast out that which the way sought to uphold.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law is how, generally speaking, we can tell if we've been walking in the Spirit. But the church has turned that around and said if you are upholding the law you aren't walking in the Spirit.

For example, James uses the law that forbids favoritism to the rich (Leviticus 19:15 NASB) to show his audience they have not been walking in the fruit of the Spirit, love.

The church even says they should have known this already since we have the Spirit to now teach us and don't need the law to do that anymore for us. But what the Spirit does for us is He gives us the discernment to know that what James, or Paul, or anyone else says is the truth really is the truth or not. Before, the people of God were at the mercy of it's leaders and instructors to discern truth for them.

There's two incorrect doctrines about the law in the church today soundly defeated by the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Think for me, ...and take away all this talk about the necessity of obedient repentance."

Can you see the irony here?

The church that is so sure they understand the New Covenant ended up doing exactly the opposite of what the New Covenant was given to do: Give us the power to discern between false teachers and true teachers, and then walk in the truth we discern.

 

[JLB]

The law is how, generally speaking, we can tell if we've been walking in the Spirit. But the church has turned that around and said if you are upholding the law you aren't walking in the Spirit.

For example, James uses the law that forbids favoritism to the rich (Leviticus 19:15 NASB) to show his audience they have not been walking in the fruit of the Spirit, love.

The church even says they should have known this already since we have the Spirit to now teach us and don't need the law to do that anymore for us. But what the Spirit does for us is He gives us the discernment to know that what James, or Paul, or anyone else says is the truth really is the truth or not. Before, the people of God were at the mercy of it's leaders and instructors to discern truth for them.

There's two incorrect doctrines about the law in the church today soundly defeated by the Bible.

You make some very good points, as I have always said.

A couple of things that you and I differ on are:

• The law of Moses was never intended for Gentiles, as it was never given to Gentiles who are living in their own country.
• When I say the law of Moses I am referring to all of the law of Moses, not just the moral precepts and statutes.
• The law of Moses has been replaced by the New Covenant. [not Replacement Theology]

JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

And what you believe is like claiming you can be an American citizen living abroad and thinking you are completely and totally free of the laws governing United States citizens. But when it comes time to reap the benefits and privileges of being a US citizen you're first in line to receive those benefits and privileges.

If this doesn't illustrate the present thinking of the church nothing does.

What are you afraid of, that all this means someone's going to make you keep Sabbath? What are you afraid of?



Somebody please explain to me how 'do not murder' suddenly is not the law of Moses outside of the nation of Israel. And if you can't do that, explain to me how when I 'do not murder' that DOESN'T uphold (not violate) the law of Moses.

All you people have to do is show me how believing in Christ and walking by the fruit of the Spirit doesn't uphold the requirements of the law of Moses. Don't show me how it puts an end to the first covenant way of upholding the requirements of the law of Moses. I already know that. So it's simple, just show me how I have violated the requirements of the law when I believe and walk in the Spirit. Paul says I have fufilled ALL the law when I do that:

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NIV)

"13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:13-14 NIV)

But you people are so sure this isn't true. So explain why you're right, and Paul is wrong.

No, that is not correct. It is more like we are diplomats sent as representatives to a foreign country to represent our government. As such we enjoy immunity from the foreign (Moses') laws while there, but are still subject to our homeland's law (Grace), and are bound to be recalled home if we discredit the reputation of our government. We don't seek to do anything which would slander our country while in the foreign land, but when we "don't murder" we are not upholding foreign law, rather the law of our own country which just happen in this instance to coincide.

The problem with the law of Moses is that it is not fundamental, but instead just a way of upholding the fundamentals. Ways are open to interpretation so that eventually followers disagree on the correct way to be followed, which causes dissension and divides them. As Christians we know that Jesus Christ fulfilled Moses' law, so that we are now free from it's ways that we can observe the fundamentals as the Holy Spirit directs us.

The fundamentals are to love God, and likewise, to love others as ourselves. That is all, just two. One, really, when you understand the second is like the first. Everything else is just a way of expressing these two. This is the meaning of Rom 13, and why I agree with Paul.

 

[Sparkey]

Are we not all one in Christ?
Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

By faith, yes. Is it Experiential? Progress toward a "Nation born in a day," is being made.

~Sparhawke

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB,

Surely you can see that what you're arguing for, whether you realize it or not, is the WAY of the law of Moses was set aside, not the REQUIREMENTS of the law of Moses.

The first covenant way to fulfill the requirements of the law have been replaced by a new and better covenant to fulfill the requirements of the law. This is what Hebrews is all about. Not abolishment of the law, but a fulfillment of the law. A fulfillment that allows the setting aside of the first covenant way of meeting the requirements of the law (those requirements being death, blood, sacrifice, Festival gathering, Sabbath Rest, cleansing, etc.)

For example, death by stoning according to the letter of the law is the old covenant way of upholding the lawful requirement for death. Death by crucifixion of the old nature with Jesus on a cross, through faith in Jesus, is the new way of upholding that requirement of the law.

"...we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

The requirement of the law didn't go away. The old way of upholding it is what went away. This is why you have to distinguish between the requirements of the law of Moses and the first covenant way of the law of Moses. Jesus did not set aside both. The requirements of the law of Moses remain and are upheld by our faith in Christ. The way of the law of Moses (aka, the old covenant) is what got set aside. This is true for both Jew and gentile who have faith.

This is how the Bible itself teaches this subject. This is the proper way to view and understand this matter of law. I did not invent this. The Bible shows us the true way to view this subject: The WAY of the law of Moses got laid aside, not the REQUIREMENTS of the law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Surely you can see that what you're arguing for, whether you realize it or not, is the WAY of the law of Moses was set aside, not the REQUIREMENTS of the law of Moses.

The first covenant way to fulfill the requirements of the law have been replaced by a new and better covenant to fulfill the requirements of the law. This is what Hebrews is all about. Not abolishment of the law, but a fulfillment of the law. A fulfillment that allows the setting aside of the first covenant way of meeting the requirements of the law (those requirements being death, blood, sacrifice, Festival gathering, Sabbath Rest, cleansing, etc.)

The first covenant way to fulfill the requirements of the law have been replaced by a new and better covenant to fulfill the requirements of the law.

The law of Moses was the legal stipulations of that Covenant from Sinai. This was a special provision for the children of Israel for the land of Israel, with a covenant that was part of a Greater Covenant, temporarily.

Abraham walked with God in relationship as God intended for Adam to do.

The WAY we are declared righteous is the Way Abraham was declared righteous, by the obedience of faith.

The WAY we are declared justified is by the obedience of faith.

The way we are grafted into the Covenant of Abraham is by faith.

The man Israel was not under the law of Moses.

The law and the prophets witnessed the time when we would be declared righteous APART FROM THE LAW OF MOSES.

Not because we uphold the law of Moses, but APART from the law of Moses.

Remember, the law of Moses was added to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Abrahamic Covenant is the Covenant that the Lord made with Abraham, and it is the Covenant that we are grafted into.

The New Covenant is not a "brand new" different covenant, as a new "WAY" of fulfilling the law of Moses.

The New Covenant is New as in "Fresh" not different.

The New Covenant is a re-vitalized, ratified version of the Abrahamic Covenant that has better promises and is what God intended all along.

IT IS NOT LIKE THE COVENANT THAT GOD MADE WITH THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL WHEN HE LED THEM OUT OF EGYPT.

The law of Moses was added until the Seed should come.

The Seed is the One who made Covenant with Abraham.

The Seed is the One who had to have blood in order to CONFIRM HIS PART of the Abrahamic Covenant, of which Abraham's part of the "cutting of flesh" and "the shedding of blood" was circumcision.

What you fail to understand is the Jesus fulfilled the Covenant, and promises and the types in Genesis as well as the rest of the OT.

We have been grafted into the Abrahamic Covenant, not the law of Moses.

We have Diplomatic Immunity from that law.

Abraham did not sacrifice animals for his sins.

Abraham did not keep special feast days.

Abraham did not have special food laws.

Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE he was circumcised.

Abraham was not circumcised according to the law of Moses, which was to be performed on the eighth day.

Were God's precepts and moral laws seen in the law of Moses? Yes.

Were God's mysteries and shadows and types seen within the law of Moses? Yes.

Do we ignore the Ten Commandments? No.

Are there other laws as seen within the law of Moses that apply to us? Most likely.

Has the law of Moses vanished away, based on these scriptures - Yes

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13


17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB,

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

Since you do not agree with Paul, what requirements of the law of Moses do not get upheld by faith in Jesus Christ?

I know you say this is directed to blood Jews, but how does faith in Jesus if your Jewish uphold the requirements of the law of Moses, but faith in Jesus if your a gentile does not uphold the requirements of the law?