The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[Sinthesis]

This is good news because I was getting pretty tired of 'do not covet', 'do not commit adultery', and 'do not steal', and all the other commandments.

If you serve Christ, then you will love God, and love others as yourself. As a consequence you won't be preoccupied with coveting, or adultering, or stealing. If you serve the Ten Commandments then you will by definition be preoccupied with them, and naturally where they end, exactly where the boundaries are, their solidity, possible exceptions, what lies beyond, why it's forbidden.

Mat 5:27 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

Grace changes the heart.

So then I still am 'under the law', keeping it's requirements(?)

Nope, you are 'under Christ', keeping Jesus' requirements of those who would follow Him; to love God, and to love others as yourself. If you live by these two, then in so doing you also will not transgress the spiritual intent of any other commandment from God, for they all hang on the two. The effect may appear the same, as righteous living, but the motivation is from the love written on your heart rather than strict legalism.

 

[Sinthesis]

This law stuff... Legalism grace back and forth.. .Doesn't Grace put the law in our hearts isnt the difference more down the lines of why / Why we do not murder. Why we dont have other gods.

Exactly. As Christians our 'why' is down to what we know Jesus did for us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

instead of 'grace' being properly understood as the power to uphold the requirements of the law.

What law?

Moses Law?

The Law of faith?

The Law of sin and death?

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27


...instead of 'grace' being properly understood as the power to uphold the requirements of the law of faith.


JLB

Read the context. The law of Moses ended in regard to justification (as if it could really justify anyone anyway). That is what Paul is talking about when he talks about the 'law' of faith. He even says in that passage that we don't nullify works of the law by this 'law' of faith that justifies. We uphold it.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:27-31 NASB)

'Apart from works of the law' does not mean that those works can now go unfulfilled as is popularly taught in our churches these days. It means a person is justified apart from the works of the law. As we see, Paul makes the point that 'apart from the law' does NOT mean we are somehow excused from the fulfillment of the law. But that is exactly what we teach in the church. Jesus himself said he did NOT come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17 NASB). But the doctrine of the church says he did abolish it.

I know it gets complicated from here because some swing completely the other way and insist that the law that Jesus came to fulfill not abolish means the fulfillment continues absolutely literal in all aspects. The rest of scripture shows us this simply is not true.

Let's uncomplicate it.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-25


Show me where in these verse's where the Law of Moses comes in to play.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Salvation.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Righteousness.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Justification.

The Law of Moses plays no part in being filled with the Holy Spirit.


Let's uncomplicate the whole thing and find out what the law of Moses has to do with us.

Let's just check off all the things that the law of Moses does not have to do with, THEN let's talk about the only thing that the law DOES have to do with.


JLB

You're doing it again. You're arguing against the 'way', the system, of the law, instead of addressing the requirements of the law.

The way and system of law and relating to God that WAY is indeed gone, but the requirements of the law stand firm and eternal. Some of those requirements, like blood sacrifice, are fulfilled (not abolished) and don't need any literal work by us, while others are fulfilled (and not abolished) as we do them--i.e. 'do not murder'. Jesus plainly said he did NOT come to abolish the law, so why does the church teach that he did??????

Back to work. Will be back later to comment directly to things you posted.

 

[JLB]

Read the context. The law of Moses ended in regard to justification (as if it could really justify anyone anyway). That is what Paul is talking about when he talks about the 'law' of faith. He even says in that passage that we don't nullify works of the law by this 'law' of faith that justifies. We uphold it.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:27-31 NASB)

'Apart from works of the law' does not mean that those works can now go unfulfilled as is popularly taught in our churches these days. It means a person is justified apart from the works of the law. As we see, Paul makes the point that 'apart from the law' does NOT mean we are somehow excused from the fulfillment of the law. But that is exactly what we teach in the church. Jesus himself said he did NOT come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17 NASB). But the doctrine of the church says he did abolish it.

I know it gets complicated from here because some swing completely the other way and insist that the law that Jesus came to fulfill not abolish means the fulfillment continues absolutely literal in all aspects. The rest of scripture shows us this simply is not true.

Let's uncomplicate it.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-25


Show me where in these verse's where the Law of Moses comes in to play.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Salvation.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Righteousness.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Justification.

The Law of Moses plays no part in being filled with the Holy Spirit.


Let's uncomplicate the whole thing and find out what the law of Moses has to do with us.

Let's just check off all the things that the law of Moses does not have to do with, THEN let's talk about the only thing that the law DOES have to do with.


JLB

You're doing it again. You're arguing against the 'way', the system, of the law, instead of addressing the requirements of the law.

The way and system of law and relating to God that WAY is indeed gone, but the requirements of the law stand firm and eternal. Some of those requirements, like blood sacrifice, are fulfilled (not abolished) and don't need any literal work by us, while others are fulfilled (and not abolished) as we do them--i.e. 'do not murder'. Jesus plainly said he did NOT come to abolish the law, so why does the church teach that he did??????

Back to work. Will be back later to comment directly to things you posted.

I am trying to isolate the things in the Law of Moses that do not pertain to us now.

Once we narrow down how we are to be involved with the law of Moses, then we can discuss only those points.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am trying to isolate the things in the Law of Moses that do not pertain to us now.

Answer this one question: Did Jesus come to abolish the law? You know the answer, and it is that answer that forces us to see this matter of law in the vein that I'm sharing here.

List a couple of those things that do not pertain to us anymore and I will show you that they do, and how they do. Then you will see that what you are actually arguing for underneath it all, but don't know it, is the end of the way of the law of Moses, not the end of the requirements of the law of Moses.

Jesus did not come to abolish the requirements of the law. He came to fulfill them. He plainly said this. This being true, we don't need to construct a doctrine that creates a 'new' law to explain why we don't keep many of the requirements of the law of Moses literally. 'Fulfillment' is the key to reconciling the old with the New. But 'abolishment' is how many in the church have tried to explain the difference between the old and the New...in direct contradiction to the plain words of Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So then I still am 'under the law', keeping it's requirements(?)

Nope, you are 'under Christ', keeping Jesus' requirements of those who would follow Him; to love God, and to love others as yourself. If you live by these two, then in so doing you also will not transgress the spiritual intent of any other commandment from God, for they all hang on the two. The effect may appear the same, as righteous living, but the motivation is from the love written on your heart rather than strict legalism.

You, too, are arguing for the end of the 'way' of the law of Moses, not the end of the requirements of the law of Moses, but you may not realize it. No need to construct a doctrine about a 'new' law and avoiding any reference to the law of Moses when talking about the requirements of God. What's new is the way we serve the requirements of the law of Moses. An easy read of James' letter will show you that we are indeed still 'under' the requirements of the law of Moses. He uses it to teach his audience what they should and should not be doing.

I know this is a hard pill for the church to swallow, thanks to centuries of misguided indoctrination, but the Bible is actually quite clear on this matter. Somewhere along the line the church leadership (surprise, surprise, lol!) confused the end of the way of the law of Moses with the requirements of the law of Moses themselves. It's all part of this end-times doctrine that presently grips the church that has us blinded into thinking obedience is really just an optional thing because salvation is so utterly not connected with works.

 

[JLB]

I am trying to isolate the things in the Law of Moses that do not pertain to us now.

Answer this one question: Did Jesus come to abolish the law? You know the answer, and it is that answer that forces us to see this matter of law in the vein that I'm sharing here.

List a couple of those things that do not pertain to us anymore and I will show you that they do, and how they do. Then you will see that what you are actually arguing for underneath it all, but don't know it, is the end of the way of the law of Moses, not the end of the requirements of the law of Moses.

Jesus did not come to abolish the requirements of the law. He came to fulfill them. He plainly said this. This being true, we don't need to construct a doctrine that creates a 'new' law to explain why we don't keep many of the requirements of the law of Moses literally. 'Fulfillment' is the key to reconciling the old with the New. But 'abolishment' is how many in the church have tried to explain the difference between the old and the New...in direct contradiction to the plain words of Jesus.

Answer this question: did Jesus fulfill the Law?

It seems you are only interested in continuing in going in circles about the Law of Moses.

Lets isolate all the things that the Law of Moses does not do, then we can discuss the things in our Christian walk that do pertain to the Law of Moses.

The reason you must not cooperate in this discussion of all the things that the Law does not do, is because you will have nothing to discuss.

On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:40

This is not a reference to the law of Moses, but the Torah, which includes Genesis.

Genesis was thousands of years before Sinai and the Law of Moses.

When ever you see the "Law and Prophets" together it is a reference to the Torah, not the Law of Moses written exclusively for the children of Israel in the land of Israel.

44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." Luke 24:44

Jesus fulfilled all the Law which includes all the sacrifices within the law of Moses.

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

The 'way' of the law of Moses and the 'requirements' of the law of Moses are not eternal. They are not the will that God has always desired for man to follow, yet they pointed to it. Moses' law was given to Israel's descendants because they transgressed God's will just like the Gentiles. What we have always been instructed to do is love God, and love others as ourselves. If you can do this, then you won't transgress God or your fellow man, but this is only possible through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thus specific instructions were given to differentiate and guide God's people until Jesus and the Holy Spirit could write a guiding principle on believers' hearts.

Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
​

The problem with law is that written instructions are open to interpretation. When this is done without the Holy Spirit it allows one to technically follow the law while at the same time transgressing God's will. Think Pharisees. Thus the law was only ever a means to an end, the end being Christ's gift to us of the Holy Spirit as a guide. All the better to serve God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's uncomplicate it.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-25


Show me where in these verse's where the Law of Moses comes in to play.

In verse 21, "apart from the law".

From the verse immediately before it, and other places, we know he means 'apart from the works of the law'.

Faith in Christ to be declared righteous, all by itself, is diametrically opposed to doing works of the law to be declared righteous.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Salvation.

It plays no part in justification. This is true without a doubt.

James does tell us, though, as I think you'll agree, that various works of the law summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself', like 'do not show favoritism', are the works that justify us in regard to showing us to have faith in Christ, and that those works must accompany faith in Christ for that faith to be validated as being the faith that can save a person.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Righteousness.

The works of the law of Moses play no part in being made righteous in God's sight (only the forgiveness of sins can do that). But some do show us to have the righteousness of God through faith in Christ as James teaches us. Specifically, the ones that are a direct fulfillment of 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Justification.

At least not in regard to being MADE righteous (the one definition of 'justified' that Paul uses). But some works of the law (that is, requirements of the law) do justify us in regard to be SHOWN to be righteous through our faith in Christ (the definition of 'justified' that James uses).

The Law of Moses plays no part in being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Correct. Only faith in Christ solicits the indwelling Holy Spirit in salvation. But it is true that obedience is how we stir up and enjoy the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

[/B]Let's uncomplicate the whole thing and find out what the law of Moses has to do with us.

If you mean the requirements of the law of Moses (not the system and covenant of the law of Moses), James is perhaps the best place to see what the law of Moses (summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself') has to do with New Covenant believers.

Let's just check off all the things that the law of Moses does not have to do with, THEN let's talk about the only thing that the law DOES have to do with.

You list a law, and I'll tell you how it is fulfilled in this New Covenant, not abolished in this New Covenant. For Jesus plainly said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

Some laws are fulfilled by the people of God, through their faith in Christ, when they act in accordance with the literal requirements of those laws ('do not covet, do not murder, help the needy', etc.). Some laws are fulfilled by the people of God when they act in accordance with the figurative spiritual truth those laws pointed to (i.e., 'do not muzzle the oxen while they tread the grain'). Some laws are completely and forever fulfilled to God's total satisfaction through our believing in the finished work of Christ ('keep my Sabbaths, 'bring the appointed sacrifice for sin', etc).

So you see, no law is abolished by our faith in Christ. Rather we uphold (fulfill, satisfy) the requirements of the law of Moses (and then some) by our faith in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The 'way' of the law of Moses and the 'requirements' of the law of Moses are not eternal. They are not the will that God has always desired for man to follow, yet they pointed to it. Moses' law was given to Israel's descendants because they transgressed God's will just like the Gentiles. What we have always been instructed to do is love God, and love others as ourselves. If you can do this, then you won't transgress God or your fellow man, but this is only possible through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thus specific instructions were given to differentiate and guide God's people until Jesus and the Holy Spirit could write a guiding principle on believers' hearts.

Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
​

The problem with law is that written instructions are open to interpretation. When this is done without the Holy Spirit it allows one to technically follow the law while at the same time transgressing God's will. Think Pharisees. Thus the law was only ever a means to an end, the end being Christ's gift to us of the Holy Spirit as a guide. All the better to serve God.

Again I say, you're talking about the way of the law of Moses, not the requirements of the law of Moses themselves.

Faith in Christ fulfills the requirements of the law, not abolishes them. What got set aside, because it was no longer needed (not abolished) was the system, the way, of relating to God through the physical, literal system, and way, of the law of Moses, the old covenant. But the requirements that system sought to fulfill are not abolished in this New Covenant. They are fulfilled through the new 'way' of serving and worshiping God--faith in Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit.

"...we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

And this new way, the way of faith in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit, does not abolish the requirements of the law. It upholds (satisfies, fulfills) them:

31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 NIV)

I know the learning curve for this subject is steep for the present day church. It was for me, anyway. And there are two primary things that make it steep:

1) 'Law' is always instantly and automatically heard by the church as 'trying to justified by works of the law', even when you try to explain to them you're not saying a person has to do the works of the law to be justified.

2) 'Keeping' the law is always heard by the church as literally keeping all of the requirements of the law. This one isn't quite so hard to overcome, but still, so many think of having to keep the literal ceremonial requirements of the law when you talk to them about the law not being abolished in Christ, but fulfilled.

 

[JLB]

Faith in Christ to be declared righteous, all by itself, is diametrically opposed to doing works of the law to be declared righteous.

So the Law can not make a person Righteous.

It plays no part in justification. This is true without a doubt.

The Law does not justify

Correct. Only faith in Christ solicits the indwelling Holy Spirit in salvation.

We are not given the Spirit by the Law of Moses.

If you mean the requirements of the law of Moses (not the system and covenant of the law of Moses), James is perhaps the best place to see what the law of Moses (summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself') has to do with New Covenant believers.

We do not receive love from the Law of Moses.

You list a law, and I'll tell you how it is fulfilled in this New Covenant, not abolished in this New Covenant. For Jesus plainly said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

Some laws are fulfilled by the people of God through their faith in Christ, when they act in accordance with the literal requirements of those laws ('do not covet, do not murder, help the needy', etc.). Some laws are fulfilled by the people of God when they act in accordance with the figurative spiritual truth they pointed to ('do not muzzle the oxen while they tread the grain'). Some laws are completely and forever fulfilled to God's total satisfaction through our believing in the finished work of Christ ('keep my Sabbaths, 'bring the appointed sacrifice for sin', etc).

So you see, no law is abolished by our faith in Christ. Rather we uphold (fulfill, satisfy) the requirements of the law of Moses (and then some) by our faith in Christ.

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

The Law and Prophets refers to the whole Torah, not just the Law of Moses that was given for the children of Israel in the Land of Israel.


Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning Him.

The purpose for the prophecy was to point the children of Israel to the Messiah. The prophecy has been fulfilled, not destroyed, not abolished.

We now have obtained the reality of which the prophecy pointed to, Christ our Savior. The prophecy has fulfilled its purpose.


Likewise, the Law of Moses was added to the Covenant until the Seed should come.

The Seed has indeed come, so the law of Moses is no longer a part of the Covenant and therefore is no longer valid.

The Law and the Prophets is not the law of Moses given at Sinai to the children of Israel.

The law of Moses was added for the purpose of God being able to continue to bless the children of Israel with the blessings of Abraham, even though they had transgressed the covenant with living in the land of Egypt.

Abraham did not keep the law of Moses, but rather walked with God, and was taught of God, the laws of His Kingdom.

Likewise we as Christians do not keep the law of Moses, but rather we are called to walk in the Spirit, and be led of the Spirit, and to be taught of God, which is not the way of the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...which is not the way of the law of Moses.


JLB

Which is what I've been saying over and over again.

But as even you have to acknowledge fulfills the requirements of the law of Moses. Whether those requirements were fully known before the law of Moses does not matter. The point is, when you walk in the way of the Spirit you uphold (fulfill, satisfy) the requirements of the law of Moses.

"18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law (meaning not in violation of, and therefore, condemned by the law)." (Galatians 5:18 NIV)

Maybe you can make your case better by explaining what laws DO get abolished and nullified and violated when we walk by the Spirit. And I'll show you how they do not get violated and destroyed, but rather fulfilled, just as Jesus said he came to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you mean the requirements of the law of Moses (not the system and covenant of the law of Moses), James is perhaps the best place to see what the law of Moses (summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself') has to do with New Covenant believers.

We do not receive love from the Law of Moses.

We receive a fundamental revelation of love for others by the law ('I would not have known what it was to covet if...').

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

The Law and Prophets refers to the whole Torah, not just the Law of Moses that was given for the children of Israel in the Land of Israel.

The literal system, and way, of the law of Moses was given to the children of Israel. As you yourself point out, the requirements of the law of Moses go all the way back to creation (Sabbaths, love for others, blood sacrifice, etc.), and continue into this New Covenant. What started later and ended with the coming of Christ was the temporary system and way of the law of Moses, not the requirements that way and system sought to fulfill.

Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning Him.

The purpose for the prophecy was to point the children of Israel to the Messiah. The prophecy has been fulfilled, not destroyed, not abolished.

You're arguing that the 'law' that didn't get abolished by Christ is just a general term for the catch-all phrase used for everything written down in our OT about Christ. But you ignore the fact that Christ is indeed the fulfillment of some very specific requirements of Moses' law (Sabbath Rest, blood sacrifice, etc.), not just prophecies written about him in the overall collection of writings called the 'law'.

But to prove your point, you can show me which requirements of law got abolished because they were not part of what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of what wouldn't get abolished. Then I will show you how the requirements of those laws are NOT abolished, but fulfilled through the new way, faith in Christ.

 
We now have obtained the reality of which the prophecy pointed to, Christ our Savior. The prophecy has fulfilled its purpose.


Likewise, the Law of Moses was added to the Covenant until the Seed should come.

Yes, the literal system and way of the law of Moses, the first covenant, is what was added and then laid aside as being not needed anymore (because of Christ). Hebrews is where we learn about this. The system and way of the old covenant, not the requirements of the law of Moses, being laid aside is easily proven to be what happened when you consider laws concerning love for others and blood sacrifice for sin. Those have been abolished? If that's true then 'do not murder', and atonement for sin through the blood of Christ have been abolished. Hardly true and hardly defensible. But it's clear that what changed was HOW those eternal requirements find their fulfillment, not that they no longer have to be fulfilled. I'd be shocked if you dared disagree with that. Utterly shocked.

The Seed has indeed come, so the law of Moses is no longer a part of the Covenant and therefore is no longer valid.

The literal system, and way of the law of Moses is no longer a valid way to approach God in worship and service and sacrifice. But the requirements for worship, service and sacrifice commanded in that system are still valid and binding on the people of God, in whatever literal or 'spiritual' way they find their fulfillment in this New Covenant.

The Law and the Prophets is not the law of Moses given at Sinai to the children of Israel.

Right. The very specific commands given to Moses to be given to the nation of Israel is one part of the sum total of the 'law and the prophets'. But that actually is in favor of my doctrine, not yours. I'm the one defending the eternal nature of God's requirements (blood sacrifice, love, etc.), temporarily boxed in a system and way of worship called the 'law of Moses'.

The law of Moses was added for the purpose of God being able to continue to bless the children of Israel with the blessings of Abraham, even though they had transgressed the covenant with living in the land of Egypt.

And neither will we be blessed if we do not uphold the requirements (not the way) of the law of Moses, in whatever appropriate literal or spiritual way those requirements get fulfilled (not abolished) in this New Covenant. They are our example to illustrate that truth. You can not dwell in and enjoy the blessings and privileges of the covenant if you do not obey. If you don't believe me treat your wife and kids like dogs and then come back to us and report to us how Spirit-filled and blessed you are by God.

Abraham did not keep the law of Moses, but rather walked with God, and was taught of God, the laws of His Kingdom.

Abraham upheld requirements of God later found codified in the written law of Moses--blood sacrifice, etc. The literal way and system of the law of Moses was the blip on the radar of history, not the requirements of the law of Moses themselves.

Likewise we as Christians do not keep the law of Moses, but rather we are called to walk in the Spirit, and be led of the Spirit, and to be taught of God, which is not the way of the law of Moses.


JLB

Worth quoting again. Listen to your own words. This is exactly what I've been saying.

 

[JLB]

The point is, when you walk in the way of the Spirit you uphold (fulfill, satisfy) the requirements of the law of Moses.

I haven't found that scripture that says that.

"18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law (meaning not in violation of, and therefore, condemned by the law)." (Galatians 5:18 NIV)

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

Let's use the word you added to the last scripture. [Requirements]

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the requirement's of the law.

Maybe you can make your case better by explaining what laws DO get abolished and nullified and violated when we walk by the Spirit. And I'll show you how they do not get violated and destroyed, but rather fulfilled, just as Jesus said he came to do.

I don't have a case. I have what the scripture says...

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


The Seed has come and fulfilled the law, as the law was a temporary shadow that vanished in the Light of the Son.


The law of Moses was never ever intended for Gentiles who live outside of the land of Israel.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/romans/3.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-g 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

Have Gentiles who live in the USA ever been under the Law of Moses?

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, Romans 2:14

Though we are not under the law of Moses, nor do we have the law of Moses, we have a nature that Loves God and loves our neighbor, even though we are not under the law of Moses.

Loving God and loving your neighbor was a Law of God's Kingdom long before Moses was born!


The law of Moses does not has provision to remove sin.

The law of Moses does not make a person righteous.

The law of Moses does not make a person justified.

The law of Moses does not make a person free from guilt.

The law of Moses is not of faith.



What does the law of Moses do for us today?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, you're probably busy constructing a rebuttal, and that's fine (this may well be my favorite subject to talk about). Yeah, we know the law of Moses was a veiled revelation of God's righteous qualities, but really this doctrine of a 'new' law that replaces the 'old' law is just plain wrong. It's a man made, and unnecessary attempt to explain the transition from the old to the new. I think the church has been trying to explain it for centuries, but it seems if you just read your Bible and lay aside...no, abolish (lol) the indoctrination about the law that grips the church these days you can see that the requirements of the law of Moses did not go away in this New Covenant, they get fulfilled in this New Covenant.....through the 'new' way of the Spirit and faith in Christ.

 

[Brother Mike]

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

Praise God, it is the law of faith, The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that makes me free from the Law of sin and death. So faith in the Royal law of Love upholds the commandment of the law by which all the law hangs.

For if the Rod be Love and the curtain be the law, the Law can not be kept in place without first hanging the rod firmly in place. Hang the Rod!!!

Mike

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point is, when you walk in the way of the Spirit you uphold (fulfill, satisfy) the requirements of the law of Moses.

I haven't found that scripture that says that.

You haven't acknowledged it because you decided to violate plain grammatical sense and redefine 'law', the one that gets upheld, in the last part of this verse:

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

"18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law (meaning not in violation of, and therefore, condemned by the law)." (Galatians 5:18 NIV)

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

Let's use the word you added to the last scripture. [Requirements]

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the requirement's of the law.

How does being led by the Spirit relieve me of the requirement to 'not steal', or the requirement to have my sins atoned for through blood sacrifice?

But I can easily see how being led by the Spirit and having faith in Christ relieves me of the old WAY of fulfilling those requirements.

Maybe you can make your case better by explaining what laws DO get abolished and nullified and violated when we walk by the Spirit. And I'll show you how they do not get violated and destroyed, but rather fulfilled, just as Jesus said he came to do.

I don't have a case. I have what the scripture says...

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


The Seed has come and fulfilled the law, as the law was a temporary shadow that vanished in the Light of the Son.

So when the seed came, 'do not committ adultery', 'be circumcised', and blood sacrifice for atonement, for example, were only an added, temporary requirement that goes away now that Christ has appeared?

Doesn't it make more sense that the WAY these eternal requirements are fulfilled is what was temporarily added until Christ's appearance?

The law of Moses was never ever intended for Gentiles who live outside of the land of Israel.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/romans/3.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-g 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

Have Gentiles who live in the USA ever been under the Law of Moses?

In regard to the literal way and system of the law of Moses, no, of course. That way demands that many of the requirements of God be literally fulfilled in that way in the Land.

But it is clear that 'do not murder', and 'do not steal', for example, are laws of Moses that the entire gentile world is 'under' the condemnation of, and will be judged by (Paul says so) whether they live in Jerusalem, or Defiance, Ohio.

You HAVE to distinguish between the WAY of the law of Moses, and the requirements of the law of Moses when talking about who is, and who is not subject to, and/or 'under' the law of Moses.

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, Romans 2:14

Though we are not under the law of Moses, nor do we have the law of Moses, we have a nature that Loves God and loves our neighbor, even though we are not under the law of Moses.

Loving God and loving your neighbor was a Law of God's Kingdom long before Moses was born!


The law of Moses does not has provision to remove sin.

The requirement for blood sacrifice is spelled out right in the law of Moses. What you are saying is the WAY of the law of Moses does not have the capacity or provision within itself to completely remove all of the sin the law itself prohibits. Again, it is the WAY of the law of Moses as an inadequate way to deal with sin--that is what you are arguing about, NOT THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW ITSELF FOR BLOOD FOR THE ATONEMENT OF SIN.

This is the great stumbling block of the Jews. They don't understand the irony of the law, that the law does not have the provision to deal completely with it's own requirements. The WAY of the law of Moses is what is inadequate, not the REQUIREMENTS of the law of Moses.

The law of Moses does not make a person righteous.

The law of Moses does not make a person justified.

The law of Moses does not make a person free from guilt.

The law of Moses is not of faith.



What does the law of Moses do for us today?


JLB

"15...how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:15-17 NIV)

What scriptures do you think Paul is talking about, my Zondervan NIV Bible?

And this teaching, rebuking, and correcting, and training in righteousness is EXACTLY what James does in his letter.

(The 'law keepers' that I used to debate so fiercely would be so proud of me right now, seeing me use the same arguments they used! :yes)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Got lots of homework.

Be back later....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

Praise God, it is the law of faith, The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus that makes me free from the Law of sin and death. So faith in the Royal law of Love upholds the commandment of the law by which all the law hangs.

For if the Rod be Love and the curtain be the law, the Law can not be kept in place without first hanging the rod firmly in place. Hang the Rod!!!

Mike

In context, the 'law of faith' is contrasted with works of the law of Moses--a 'law of works'--to be justified. IOW, if there was a 'law' on how to be justified it would be 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ', a 'law of faith', as opposed to 'do the works of the law to be justified', a 'law of works'.

He's not talking about a 'new' law of requirements that replaces an old law of requirements. Again, I refer you to the laws of blood sacrifice for sin, circumcision, and 'do not steal' as example to prove my point.

As you point out, it is the condemnation of the law that we are no longer 'under'....that is IF we walk by the Spirit and continue to believe in Jesus Christ. It's absurd to think that somehow we're no longer under the requirements of the law any more (do not murder, do not steal, blood sacrifice for sin, etc.).

It was actually kind of hard to discern what you're actually trying to say in your post. I see the common clouded understanding of the law in what you wrote. I want to comment more but homework awaits (hint, reexamine the part about 'So faith in the Royal law of Love upholds the commandment of the law by which all the law hangs').

 

[Brother Mike]

It was actually kind of hard to discern what you're actually trying to say in your post. I see the common clouded understanding of the law in what you wrote. I want to comment more but homework awaits (hint, reexamine the part about 'So faith in the Royal law of Love upholds the commandment of the law by which all the law hangs').

Not targeting you brother, but I have found that this Royal law of Love by which the Holy Spirit sheds the love of God abroad in our hearts by faith In Christ Jesus takes the works of the law away. For if I have and abide in the love of God, I don't steal or sleep with your wife. Love conquers all and by which the law is kept at a higher standard than set in the OT but at the same time abolished as only one law now to keep, and that is Love God with all and love your neighbor.

For Jesus said it's not longer a tooth for a tooth, there is a higher law, and that is Love.

Blessings.