The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[Jethro Bodine]

...I have found that this Royal law of Love by which the Holy Spirit sheds the love of God abroad in our hearts by faith In Christ Jesus takes the works of the law away.

What do you mean by 'takes the law away'?

If you mean it takes away the way of the law, meaning the love of God written on our hearts replaces the old way of only reading about the love of God in the written code, then I understand. But if you mean love takes away the requirement itself to satisfy the commands of the law to love I don't see that at all. That's not even logical.

For if I have and abide in the love of God, I don't steal or sleep with your wife. Love conquers all and by which the law is kept...

Exactly what I've been saying. "(F)aith expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6 NIV) KEEPS the law, not abolishes it (Romans 13:8-10 NIV). You said it, but then you say the law is abolished by God's love in our hearts through faith in Christ. That only makes sense if you mean the WAY of the law--written words dictated to us on stone and paper, powerless to change anybody--is what is set aside by the this new WAY of the Spirit inside of us writing the commands of the law on our hearts and minds.

...at a higher standard than set in the OT but at the same time abolished as only one law now to keep, and that is Love God with all and love your neighbor.

How does doing right by others, because you love them, abolish the doing right? Obviously you mean it abolishes doing right in the old WAY of obeying mere written words in the power of your own strength and will.

Certainly even you can see that what you mean, but may not realize, is that you are saying the WAY of doing right is what is laid aside, not the doing right itself. I challenge you to prove to me that 'do not murder', or 'love your neighbor as yourself' have been abolished by now having the love of God in our hearts through faith in Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit causing us to 'do not murder' and 'love your neighbor as yourself'. It's clear that faith in Christ is a new WAY that fulfills the very same requirements of the law (and then some), not abolishes them, and replaces the old WAY of fulfilling those requirements of the law, not the requirements themselves.

For Jesus said it's not longer a tooth for a tooth, there is a higher law, and that is Love.

Blessings.

'Tooth for tooth' has not been abolished. That is an eternal principle of God's justice. Christ is the 'tooth for tooth, life for life, skin for skin, eye for eye' that God's holiness and justice demands.

The requirement did not get abolished. It got fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction, forever, through our faith in the work of Christ to meet and satisfy that lawful demand of God's justice. Just another example of how Christ came to fulfill, not abolish, the requirements of the law.

What got laid aside is the old WAY that requirement of God's justice was doled out, and by whom. But the requirement stands firm and eternal, unmoved by the change of covenant from that of the way of literal fulfillment through the law of Moses, to that of the way of spiritual fulfillment through faith in Christ, of which the literal Mosaic way only pointed to.


I'd be shocked if you found anything to argue against in anything I've said.

 

[Brother Mike]

I'd be shocked if you found anything to argue against in anything I've said.

I won't then........ Be blessed Brother

Mike.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You won't argue against anything I said just so I won't be shocked, or because you can not find anything to argue against?

 

[JLB]

You haven't acknowledged it because you decided to violate plain grammatical sense and redefine 'law', the one that gets upheld, in the last part of this verse: "31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

I have acknowledged what the word says and the context.

You are placing yourself as well as Gentile Believers in a category that has nothing to do with you. The Law of Moses has NOTHING to do with Gentiles who do not live in Israel!

You are inserting yourself into a category that is reserved for ONLY those to whom the Law of Moses is applicable, by ignoring the context and the legal argument in which this context is made.

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

You are not in the category of we!

We is to pertaining to those who are under the Law.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law...

Brother you are not under the law of Moses, therefore the law of Moses does not pertain to you.

You are therefore excluded from verse 31.

Look at the context, starting in verse 1.


1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,


You are not, nor have you ever been, nor will ever be, under the law of Moses.


30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.


Jethro Bodine does not establish the law of Moses, because Jethro Bodine is not under the law of Moses.


Before we go any further let's settle this issue of being under the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB,

I know I'm not 'under' the law, but how does that mean I don't have to fulfill what the law says?

The wheels in your head should be spinning already, busy crafting your answer to that question. And I think they are already taking you down the road to 'it is the WAY we fulfill the requirements of the law that we are no longer under' (as you understand and use the word 'under' in this discussion).

The requirements of the law did not go away. They are fulfilled (satisfied) through the new WAY of the Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB,

I see from your words about circumcision that you haven't gotten over the hump that 'fulfillment' has to mean in the absolutely literal way written in the law, even though I've been careful to spell it out that 'fulfillment' means upholding all of the commands of the law in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Christ. But as I pointed out, this is a common and very stubborn problem to overcome among so many people in the church caught in the grip of the misguided indoctrination about the role of the law in this New Covenant.

What 'fulfillment' means, in the case of circumcision, is not the cutting of the flesh, but the cutting of the heart by the Holy Spirit. How have you been missing this essential point about non-literal fulfillment in my argument all this time??? God's requirement for circumcision did not get abolished. It gets fulfilled by our faith in Jesus Christ. But you insist I don't have to fulfill the requirement for circumcision because you're stuck in the rut that fulfillment of the requirements of the law only means the literal fulfillment of those requirements, the WAY of the written code.

This is why your doctrine has to carefully redefine the word 'law' in various places to mean something other than the law of Moses. That's why I say it is a man-made doctrine, designed to somehow explain how we don't have to fulfill the requirements of the law according to many of it's literal stipulations, yet not abolish it either (just as Jesus said he did NOT come to do). But the Bible teaches us how a law doesn't have to be fulfilled in the literal WAY of the written code for it to be fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction.

Sacrifice for sin is the premier example of this. The law of Moses is the standard by which even the church understands God's requirements for blood sacrifice and the perfection of the sacrifice, and how Christ is the fulfillment of those lawful requirements. But then the church will turn right around and say we do not have to fulfill the requirements of the law because we're not 'under' it anymore, lol.

They can plainly see from the example of Christ, if they'd let themselves see it, that fulfillment does not have to automatically and categorically mean literal, to the letter of the law, keeping of the law, and that we do indeed fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses, not some kind of 'new' law.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

I know I'm not 'under' the law, but how does that mean I don't have to fulfill what the law says?

The wheels in your head should be spinning already, busy crafting your answer to that question. And I think they are already taking you down the road to 'it is the WAY we fulfill the requirements of the law that we are no longer under (as you understand and use the word 'under' in this discussion).

The requirements of the law did not go away. They are fulfilled (satisfied) through the new WAY of the Spirit and faith in Jesus Christ.

The scriptures are my answer.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law...

You are not included in the category that is defined by the word we, in verse 31.

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

In this setting context, you are a they, not a we.

You are not under the law.

When you discover this vital truth, then you won't have to add your words to the scripture.

Words like requirements.


JLB

 

[reba]

Over the years of reading forums and the like the LAW battle goes on and on.
I would like to ask those appear to be against the Law's God put in place .. Who have you murdered today.. So how many times have you worshiped other Gods ? Hows the boy/girl/friend doing? If you dont do such things why not?

Could it be, that to a Christian God has as He said He would, written those laws on/in our hearts?

Why do we feel free to use OT scripture for this or that then say O no not the Law...

These battles continue partly because we do not take to time to define what the word 'law' means to us as posters... Taking the time to define might be a good idea

Some thing like
Priestly laws .. the TEN.... food laws... Do we consider it 'law' when Jesus says this is the greatest commandment?

Only by His great grace do i keep the laws i keep .. Seems i duck His grace way too often...

 

[JLB]

Over the years of reading forums and the like the LAW battle goes on and on.
I would like to ask those appear to be against the Law's God put in place .. Who have you murdered today.. So how many times have you worshiped other Gods ? Hows the boy/girl/friend doing? If you dont do such things why not?

Could it be, that to a Christian God has as He said He would, written those laws on/in our hearts?

Why do we feel free to use OT scripture for this or that then say O no not the Law...

These battles continue partly because we do not take to time to define what the word 'law' means to us as posters... Taking the time to define might be a good idea

Some thing like
Priestly laws .. the TEN.... food laws... Do we consider it 'law' when Jesus says this is the greatest commandment?

Only by His great grace do i keep the laws i keep .. Seems i duck His grace way too often...

God's Laws are Eternal.

The Law of Moses was temporary and were given to the children of Israel who lived in the land of Israel.

The law of Moses was added...

God's Eternal Kingdom laws are written on our heart, and do not include:

Sacrificing animals
Levitical priesthood
Food laws
Feast days
Killing people that don't keep the Sabbath
Utterly destroying our enemies
Temple

The laws of God' Kingdom are what Abraham kept

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Over the years of reading forums and the like the LAW battle goes on and on.
I would like to ask those appear to be against the Law's God put in place .. Who have you murdered today.. So how many times have you worshiped other Gods ? Hows the boy/girl/friend doing? If you dont do such things why not?

Could it be, that to a Christian God has as He said He would, written those laws on/in our hearts?

Why do we feel free to use OT scripture for this or that then say O no not the Law...

Yes, it's interesting how they'll acknowledge that Christ is a fulfillment of the requirements of the law for acceptable sacrifice, but then turn right around and say 'do not murder' is somehow not a fulfillment of the very same law of Moses.

Underneath it all, I'm convinced it is the fear that acknowledging the law of Moses means having to literally keep Sabbaths and various other uncomfortable and inconvenient commands in the law of Moses. But if they'd just listen carefully and understand that in the same way they know we don't literally sacrifice the blood for our atonement required by law, we also don't do many of the other worship and ceremonial laws in the law of Moses literally, those also getting fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction in a non-literal way.

 

[reba]

Where did Moses get the laws?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God's Laws are Eternal.

The Law of Moses was temporary and were given to the children of Israel who lived in the land of Israel.

Right. The WAY of fulfilling those eternal laws was temporary, most of which could only be kept in the Land. How does this make the requirements of the law of Moses themselves (the eternal requirement for Rest, the eternal requirement for blood, the eternal requirement for love, etc.) somehow also included in the temporary aspects of the law of Moses?

We read in Hebrews how the old WAY of keeping the Day of Atonement is no longer needed because it was temporary, and that Christ is the fulfillment of the requirements of the Day of Atonement, not a new law of atonement. The old WAY of the Day of Atonement is laid aside NOT THE DAY OF ATONEMENT ITSELF, giving way to the new WAY the requirement for a Day of Atonement is kept, through faith in Christ, not through the letter of the written code (Romans 7:6 NIV). I challenge you to use those very scriptures in Hebrews to prove me wrong.

The law of Moses was added...

The WAY of the law of Moses was added. Even you're acknowledging that it isn't the fundamental requirements of the law of Moses that were added. It is THE WAY THOSE ETERNAL LAWS WERE TO BE FULFILLED that got temporarily added.

God's Eternal Kingdom laws are written on our heart, and do not include:

Sacrificing animals
Levitical priesthood
Food laws
Feast days
Killing people that don't keep the Sabbath
Utterly destroying our enemies
Temple

You are so utterly and completely wrong.

ALL of these continue to be fulfilled to this very day, and will be in the future. But you won't get it if you continue to only think in the rut of the indoctrination of law in the church today.

What you are arguing for, and don't actually realize, is the truths these things represent are eternal kingdom truths, and that it is the WAY these things are kept that was added temporarily and then laid aside, NOT THE TRUTH BEING UPHELD.

 

[JLB]

Where did Moses get the laws?

From the same One who became flesh and fulfilled the law and caused it to vanish away, The Lord Jesus.

Moses was given the law.

It was appointed through angels...

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

The law was added, until...

until the Seed should come.

The only One that could add to the Covenant was the One who made the Covenant, The Lord Jesus.

The only One who could say the law was fulfilled was the One who added it, The Lord Jesus.

The only One who could determine when the law was fulfilled was, The Lord Jesus.

The only One who could determine to whom the law applied was, The Lord Jesus.

The One who appointed the angels to administer the law, The Lord Jesus.


JLB

 

[reba]

So [MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] the laws of Moses are really laws of God.... And you are using the term 'Laws of Moses' to define those of the Priesthood sorta?

 

[JLB]

God's Laws are Eternal.

The Law of Moses was temporary and were given to the children of Israel who lived in the land of Israel.

Right. The WAY of fulfilling those eternal laws was temporary, most of which could only be kept in the Land. How does this make the requirements of the law of Moses themselves (the eternal requirement for Rest, the eternal requirement for blood, the eternal requirement for love, etc.) somehow also included in the temporary aspects of the law of Moses?

We read in Hebrews how the old WAY of keeping the Day of Atonement is no longer needed because it was temporary, and that Christ is the fulfillment of the requirements of the Day of Atonement, not a new law of atonement. The old WAY of the Day of Atonement is laid aside NOT THE DAY OF ATONEMENT ITSELF, giving way to the new WAY the requirement for a Day of Atonement is kept, through faith in Christ, not through the letter of the written code (Romans 7:6 NIV). I challenge you to use those very scriptures in Hebrews to prove me wrong.

The law of Moses was added...

The WAY of the law of Moses was added. Even you're acknowledging that it isn't the fundamental requirements of the law of Moses that were added. It is THE WAY THOSE ETERNAL LAWS WERE TO BE FULFILLED that got temporarily added.

God's Eternal Kingdom laws are written on our heart, and do not include:

Sacrificing animals
Levitical priesthood
Food laws
Feast days
Killing people that don't keep the Sabbath
Utterly destroying our enemies
Temple

You are so utterly and completely wrong.

ALL of these continue to be fulfilled to this very day, and will be in the future. But you won't get it if you continue to only think in the rut of the indoctrination of law in the church today.

What you are arguing for, and don't actually realize, is the truths these things represent are eternal kingdom truths, and that it is the WAY these things are kept that was added temporarily and then laid aside, NOT THE TRUTH BEING UPHELD.

No, brother.

You don't get to sidestep and ignore the discussion that you started with the scripture you quoted -

You haven't acknowledged it because you decided to violate plain grammatical
sense and redefine 'law', the one that gets upheld, in the last part of this
verse: "31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all!
Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans
http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Romans 3.313:31 NIV)

You have been shown that verse 31 does not apply to those who are NOT under the law of Moses.

"those"who are not under the law, are not in the context of verse 31.

You yourself have chosen to violate the clear context of what Paul is saying, and have wrongly applied verse 31 to include those who are not under the law of Moses.

Now you intend to start another subject, based on your faulty premise of Romans 3:31 and continue to belabor and invalid point.

Furthermore, you added words such as "requirements", and phrases such as "the way we keep the law", when scripture makes no such mention of these words and phrases that you wrongly assume, because of your faulty understanding of Paul's letter to the Romans.


Please acknowledge that you now understand that Paul is not referring to Gentile Christians in Romans 3:31 "upholding the Law", but rather those who are under the law.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So @JLB the laws of Moses are really laws of God.... And you are using the term 'Laws of Moses' to define those of the Priesthood sorta?

I don't know of a term called "laws of Moses".

There may be one, but I don't know of where.

The writers of the New Testament refer to the law of Moses, which refers to the whole package.

The closest thing to the term laws of Moses is found in Leviticus 26:46.

46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the Lord made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Other than this, I have never seen the phrase laws of Moses.

Only the law of Moses, which pertains to a whole and complete law [legal agreement] that was added to the Covenant of Abraham until the Seed should come.

Please take heed as to who the parties of this law [legal agreement] was made between.

The Lord and the children of Israel.


JLB

 

[reba]

Over the years of reading forums and the like the LAW battle goes on and on.
I would like to ask those appear to be against the Law's God put in place .. Who have you murdered today.. So how many times have you worshiped other Gods ? Hows the boy/girl/friend doing? If you dont do such things why not?

Could it be, that to a Christian God has as He said He would, written those laws on/in our hearts?

Why do we feel free to use OT scripture for this or that then say O no not the Law...

These battles continue partly because we do not take to time to define what the word 'law' means to us as posters... Taking the time to define might be a good idea

Some thing like
Priestly laws .. the TEN.... food laws... Do we consider it 'law' when Jesus says this is the greatest commandment?

Only by His great grace do i keep the laws i keep .. Seems i duck His grace way too often...

God's Laws are Eternal.

The Law of Moses was temporary and were given to the children of Israel who lived in the land of Israel.

The law of Moses was added...

God's Eternal Kingdom laws are written on our heart, and do not include:

Sacrificing animals
Levitical priesthood
Food laws
Feast days
Killing people that don't keep the Sabbath
Utterly destroying our enemies
Temple

The laws of God' Kingdom are what Abraham kept

JLB

OK Splane maybe .... Do you say this because i put a 's' on the end of the word law?

 

[Deborah13]

You are so utterly and completely wrong.

Jethro, I really think that [MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] is correct about this one.
Moses Law was never given to the Christian Church. When Paul taught he was quite clear to the gentiles that they should not listen to the Judizers. When talking to the Jews in the church he told them that Jesus had fulfilled the Law of Moses (and the Prophets too, Jesus said). Thus the Jews were released from their obligation to that Law. Even the 10, they were included in that Law.

Here's an example, do we by being in Christ fulfill the Law that says, the master of the Hebrew slave should pierce the slaves ear?
No, that Law was never given to the gentiles, they never would have even owned Hebrew slaves. The Laws belong to the old covenant made with Moses. We were never under that covenant.

We are under the covenant that God made with Abraham and his Seed, Jesus.
The laws that are written on our hearts are God's laws that He gave to Abraham. They can be summed up in two, Love the Lord with all your heart, all .... and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Those two laws on our hearts make us know that we shouldn't murder, steal, backbite, adultery.... etc. And if that's not enough they are in the NT. That murders,(unrepentant) will ...
They were taught and they were written down for future generations.

There is absolutely no need for us to have the Law of Moses. The Word says so.

The list of 10 are handy to use to teach what sin is....but they are not detailed. They do not say, love your enemy, love your neighbor as yourself, etc.

Better to just meditate on the two, they are much more clear. How hard is it to understand don't murder someone because you wouldn't want them to murder you? Pretty clear.

And with only two, it's much more difficult for the Rabbi types to start telling you which shoe to put on first, and saying it's God that made the rule!

Blessings Jethro, I do enjoy your posts. I don't always agree but they are well thought out and I do glean from many of them.

 

[JLB]

Over the years of reading forums and the like the LAW battle goes on and on.
I would like to ask those appear to be against the Law's God put in place .. Who have you murdered today.. So how many times have you worshiped other Gods ? Hows the boy/girl/friend doing? If you dont do such things why not?

Could it be, that to a Christian God has as He said He would, written those laws on/in our hearts?

Why do we feel free to use OT scripture for this or that then say O no not the Law...

These battles continue partly because we do not take to time to define what the word 'law' means to us as posters... Taking the time to define might be a good idea

Some thing like
Priestly laws .. the TEN.... food laws... Do we consider it 'law' when Jesus says this is the greatest commandment?

Only by His great grace do i keep the laws i keep .. Seems i duck His grace way too often...

God's Laws are Eternal.

The Law of Moses was temporary and were given to the children of Israel who lived in the land of Israel.

The law of Moses was added...

God's Eternal Kingdom laws are written on our heart, and do not include:

Sacrificing animals
Levitical priesthood
Food laws
Feast days
Killing people that don't keep the Sabbath
Utterly destroying our enemies
Temple

The laws of God' Kingdom are what Abraham kept

JLB

OK Splane maybe .... Do you say this because i put a 's' on the end of the word law?

Yes.

The law of Moses.

It is a complete package.

Not to be picked and choosed as to which laws that a person decides to keep.

It's all or nothing.

The law of Moses.


JLB

 

[reba]

Ok JLB i got it...

Will you post the "law of Moses" Or the chapters and verses ?