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The Law, works and keeping his comandments

When a gentile believes in Christ they satisfy the requirement for circumcision and Sabbath Rest.

I know it's tough to show these things to the church, but how is it that you insist after all this discussion on only thinking of fulfillment in terms of actually being circumcised, and actually keeping a Sabbath day??????
 
Jethro Bodine said:
When a gentile believes in Christ they satisfy the requirement for circumcision and Sabbath Rest.

I know it's tough to show these things to the church, but how is it that you insist after all this discussion on only thinking of fulfillment in terms of actually being circumcised, and actually keeping a Sabbath day??????
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You are skirting the issue again.

If you are not afraid to answer this simple question, then answer it.

Were uncircumcised Gentiles from other nations required to keep the law of Moses.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
When a gentile believes in Christ they satisfy the requirement for circumcision and Sabbath Rest.

I know it's tough to show these things to the church, but how is it that you insist after all this discussion on only thinking of fulfillment in terms of actually being circumcised, and actually keeping a Sabbath day??????
Click to expand...

Did Abraham satisfy these requirements, 430 years before the law of Moses?

Yes, most certainly.

As he is declared the father of many nations.

None of which has to do with the law of Moses.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
When a gentile believes in Christ they satisfy the requirement for circumcision and Sabbath Rest.

I know it's tough to show these things to the church, but how is it that you insist after all this discussion on only thinking of fulfillment in terms of actually being circumcised, and actually keeping a Sabbath day??????
Click to expand...

And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. Deuteronomy 30:6

To have a circumcised heart, is another way of saying; having ears to hear. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them. Deuteronomy 30:17

Ears to hear and obey the Voice of the Lord.

This is what pleases the Lord.

This is what Abraham was commended for.

This is what we are to do.

Abraham kept Gods laws and commandments, long before there was a law of Moses.


JLB
 
JLB said:
You are skirting the issue again.

If you are not afraid to answer this simple question, then answer it.

Were uncircumcised Gentiles from other nations required to keep the law of Moses.
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YES.

I have answered this question for you at least three time now.
 
Now, answer my question:

When a gentile believes in Christ they satisfy the requirement for circumcision and Sabbath Rest.

DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS?
 
JLB said:
Show me from the law of Moses where uncircumcised Gentiles from other nations, are required to keep the Sabbath or any other law of Moses.

If it wasn't required then, how on earth can you teach people today that Uncircumcised Gentiles are required to uphold the law of Moses, under the new covenant?
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You don't even realize it, but by you saying this (the emboldened part) you are showing me that you still simply do not understand what I'm saying. You're still stuck in this vein of thinking that upholding the law of Moses means a Christian wakes up everyday and says, "oh, I have to keep the law of Moses today."

What upholding the law of Moses means is when you have faith in Christ and obey the impulse of the Spirit rising up inside of you to be peaceable, loving, faithful, forgiving, kind, humble, patient, etc. you satisfy whatever requirement of law there is in the law of Moses whether you actually know those requirements or not. When we have faith in Christ and obey according to the fruit of the Spirit you leave no law of Moses unsatisfied.

If you truly understood the argument that I've been leveling right from the beginning in this forum you would not have written what I emboldened and highlighted above. That is why it is so hard to show the church what I've been saying. They can't even understand the argument, let alone agree with it. That's how profound the power of the indoctrination about the law is on the church.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You don't even realize it, but by you saying this (the emboldened part) you are showing me that you still simply do not understand what I'm saying. You're still stuck in this vein of thinking that upholding the law of Moses means a Christian wakes up everyday and says, "oh, I have to keep the law of Moses today."

What upholding the law of Moses means is when you have faith in Christ and obey the impulse of the Spirit rising up inside of you to be peaceable, loving, faithful, forgiving, kind, humble, patient, etc. you satisfy whatever requirement of law there is in the law of Moses whether you actually know those requirements or not. When we have faith in Christ and obey according to the fruit of the Spirit you leave no law of Moses unsatisfied.

If you truly understood the argument that I've been leveling right from the beginning in this forum you would not have written what I emboldened and highlighted above. That is why it is so hard to show the church what I've been saying. They can't even understand the argument, let alone agree with it. That's how profound the power of the indoctrination about the law is on the church.
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You're still stuck in this vein of thinking that upholding the law of Moses means a Christian wakes up everyday and says, "oh, I have to keep the law of Moses today."
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Another remark that has nothing to do with me, as I do not think this.

I am the one who states that walking with God the Way Abraham did, and keeping God's commands and obeying His Voice the Way Abraham did is the pattern for the christian today.

For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 1 John 3:11

This is not the law of Moses, but the law of God which was from the beginning.


JLB

 
JLB said:
For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 1 John 3:11

This is not the law of Moses, but the law of God which was from the beginning.


JLB
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Now explain how doing that violates the law of Moses.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Now explain how doing that violates the law of Moses.
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Violates the law of Moses?

Here is what the law of Moses states; ...Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Was this required before the law of Moses?

Is this required today?


JLB
 
JLB said:
Violates the law of Moses?

Here is what the law of Moses states; ...Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Was this required before the law of Moses?

Is this required today?


JLB
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You know the answer. We have no disagreement here. We have no indication that it was required before the law of Moses.

Did Paul mean that faith does keep the literal Sabbath, and that anyone who does work on that day must be literally put to death when said "we uphold the law (by this faith)" (Romans 3:31)?

You know the answer, so now you have to ask yourself what did Paul mean, then, by saying we uphold, not nullify, the law of Moses by having faith in Jesus Christ. (I know you're argument is not for nullification. I only included it because that is what is in the verse I quoted.)

But, please, for my sake answer the question. If you say, 'no', then explain what he did mean by 'upholding the law'. And if you say, 'yes'...well, you know that means you believe that faith is required to keep the literal law of Moses, which you obviously don't. But answer the question anyway, please.
 
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So, let's get back to the point. What Abraham did--did that uphold or trample down what we now know to be the requirements of the law of Moses? Not the WAY of the law of Moses, we know that answer. The requirements of the law of Moses so as to make what Paul said true about faith (that it upholds the law of Moses).
 
Jethro Bodine said:
So, let's get back to the point. What Abraham did--did that uphold or trample down what we now know to be the requirements of the law of Moses? Not the WAY of the law of Moses, we know that answer. The requirements of the law of Moses so as to make what Paul said true about faith (that it upholds the law of Moses).
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This is what the law of Moses requires.

Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Was this required before the law of Moses?

I do not find these requirements in the book of Genesis, before the law of Moses. If I am wrong, then please point to the chapter and verse.


Is this required today?
I do not find this requirement, that the law of Moses specified, in the New Testament scriptures for Christians today.

If I am wrong please point out the chapter and verse.

If you can not point to a chapter and verse where this requirement from the law of Moses is mandated today for the church, then your doctrine that states those who have faith in Christ for Salvation are now under the law of Moses is false.


JLB
 
JLB said:
This is what the law of Moses requires.

Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Was this required before the law of Moses?

I do not find these requirements in the book of Genesis, before the law of Moses. If I am wrong, then please point to the chapter and verse.


Is this required today?
I do not find this requirement, that the law of Moses specified, in the New Testament scriptures for Christians today.

If I am wrong please point out the chapter and verse.

If you can not point to a chapter and verse where this requirement from the law of Moses is mandated today for the church, then your doctrine that states those who have faith in Christ for Salvation are now under the law of Moses is false.


JLB
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The argument is not that we are 'under' the way and system of the law of Moses (but you keep hearing it that way). The argument is that we are 'under' the law of Moses in this sense:

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

This is your chapter and verse. Do you disagree with Paul? Yes, or no?

You have said this verse is only speaking to Jews, but you time and time again refuse to answer my question as to why Jews who have faith in Christ are still 'under' the law, but gentiles who have faith are not 'under' the law.

I'm pretty sure you have to be 'under' something to uphold it. So explain how believing Jews do that, and then explain--if I understand you correctly--that believing gentiles do not do that.


And here's my question again for you to answer so we can put this discussion to rest:

When Paul said "we uphold the law (by faith)" did he mean that faith keeps the literal Sabbath, and that anyone who does work on that day must be literally put to death?

Yes, or no?

If you answer 'yes', then you contradict your own doctrine that says we are not 'under' the law of Moses anymore (as you have been stressing what 'under the law' means), so you're probably not going to answer 'yes'. But if you say 'no' then you have to explain how faith upholds the law of Moses.

Simple, yes or no question. Here's your chance to clear things up once and for all.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
The argument is not that we are 'under' the way and system of the law of Moses (but you keep hearing it that way). The argument is that we are 'under' the law of Moses in this sense:

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

This is your chapter and verse. Do you disagree with Paul? Yes, or no?

You have said this verse is only speaking to Jews, but you time and time again refuse to answer my question as to why Jews who have faith in Christ are still 'under' the law, but gentiles who have faith are not 'under' the law.

I'm pretty sure you have to be 'under' something to uphold it. So explain how believing Jews do that, and then explain--if I understand you correctly--that believing gentiles do not do that.


And here's my question again for you to answer so we can put this discussion to rest:

When Paul said "we uphold the law (by faith)" did he mean that faith keeps the literal Sabbath, and that anyone who does work on that day must be literally put to death?

Yes, or no?

If you answer 'yes', then you contradict your own doctrine that says we are not 'under' the law of Moses anymore (as you have been stressing what 'under the law' means), so you're probably not going to answer 'yes'. But if you say 'no' then you have to explain how faith upholds the law of Moses.

Simple, yes or no question. Here's your chance to clear things up once and for all.
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The answer to your question exists in the fact that you are misunderstanding the word 'uphold' in Rom 3:31(NIV) by associating it with 'keep' or 'fulfill'. As I have posted before, the correct meaning of the word translated as 'uphold' is similar to 'establish' or 'stand up'.
 
Sinthesis said:
The answer to your question exists in the fact that you are misunderstanding the word 'uphold' in Rom 3:31(NIV) by associating it with 'keep' or 'fulfill'. As I have posted before, the correct meaning of the word translated as 'uphold' is similar to 'establish' or 'stand up'.
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And I asked you what law that gets upheld by faith is not also fulfilled by that faith, and vice versa. Explain your doctrine by contrasting the meanings of 'upheld' and 'fulfilled' for us in regard to the law so that we can know 'upheld' does not mean 'fulfilled', and so by extension faith does not fulfill the law...even though that's what these passages say:

"14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”" (Galatians 5:14 NIV)

"...whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NIV)

What are you personally afraid of in acknowledging that faith in Christ upholds and fulfills the law of Moses? Are you afraid faith upholding and fulfilling the law (as the scriptures teach) somehow means you lose your Saturday work days around the house? Or that somehow this means justification is by works of the law?

Which one of these misunderstandings about 'upholding' and 'fulfilling' the law is your reason for insisting that faith does not uphold and fulfill the law of Moses? Or do you have another reason? It's usually one of these two that raises the ire of the church against any mention of the word 'law'.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The argument is not that we are 'under' the way and system of the law of Moses (but you keep hearing it that way). The argument is that we are 'under' the law of Moses in this sense:

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

This is your chapter and verse. Do you disagree with Paul? Yes, or no?

You have said this verse is only speaking to Jews, but you time and time again refuse to answer my question as to why Jews who have faith in Christ are still 'under' the law, but gentiles who have faith are not 'under' the law.

I'm pretty sure you have to be 'under' something to uphold it. So explain how believing Jews do that, and then explain--if I understand you correctly--that believing gentiles do not do that.


And here's my question again for you to answer so we can put this discussion to rest:

When Paul said "we uphold the law (by faith)" did he mean that faith keeps the literal Sabbath, and that anyone who does work on that day must be literally put to death?

Yes, or no?

If you answer 'yes', then you contradict your own doctrine that says we are not 'under' the law of Moses anymore (as you have been stressing what 'under the law' means), so you're probably not going to answer 'yes'. But if you say 'no' then you have to explain how faith upholds the law of Moses.

Simple, yes or no question. Here's your chance to clear things up once and for all.
Click to expand...



If you can not point to a chapter and verse where this requirement from the law of Moses is mandated today for the church, then your doctrine that states those who have faith in Christ for Salvation are now under the law of Moses is false.


JLB
 
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- Galatians 4:21-25
 
JLB said:
If you can not point to a chapter and verse where this requirement from the law of Moses is mandated today for the church, then your doctrine that states those who have faith in Christ for Salvation are now under the law of Moses is false.


JLB
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Then what do you say this means, JLB?

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

Do you disagree with Paul? Yes, or no?

You have said this verse is only speaking to Jews, but you time and time again refuse to answer my question as to why you say Jews who have faith in Christ are still 'under' and upholding the law, but gentiles who have faith are not 'under' and upholding the law. So explain how believing Jews uphold the law by faith, and then explain--if I understand you correctly--that gentiles who have faith do not do that.


And, please, answer this question so I can understand your doctrine:

When Paul said "we uphold the law (by faith)" did he mean that faith keeps the literal Sabbath, and that anyone who does work on that day must be literally put to death?

Yes, or no?

If you answer 'yes', then you contradict your own doctrine that says we are not 'under' the law of Moses anymore (as you have been stressing what 'under the law' means), so you're probably not going to answer 'yes'. But if you say 'no' then you have to explain how faith upholds the law of Moses.

Simple, yes or no question. Here's your chance to clear things up once and for all.


Please note there is nothing here for you to refute. I'm simply asking you to explain your doctrine. The floor is yours.
 
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