The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no phrase in this verse "old way" or "new way". You made this up and added it to this verse.

I showed you the old way and the new way right in our own Bibles.

Hebrews contrasts the reality of Jesus Christ verses the shadow that pointed to the reality.

The Tabernacle in Heaven is eternal, and was before the copy.

The Tabernacle in Moses day was a copy, which means it was not the original.

Again, your understanding is 180 degrees backwards.

Then you do not understand what I, or the Bible, are saying if you think I'm somehow saying the old covenant way of performing God's requirements for a Priestly ministry is the standard and Christ's ministry and way of fulfilling those requirements is the pattern.

The point is, Hebrews calls the the copy of the heavenly reality the OLD and FIRST covenant. It's impossible to argue the point. You make the mistake of thinking that just because I say what the Bible says it means I think the old covenant was somehow the original.

The Covenant at Sinai, the law of Moses, was added to and within the Abrahamic Covenant.

This Covenant has vanished away. What remains is the Covenant Of Abraham, that now is a better Covenant with better Promises.

I know you're still not getting this, but you have no argument from me on this.

What you're not grasping is the old covenant is the WAY of serving the heavenly realities that was added, and then taken away. The requirements that old way served are not what was taken away.

You're still stuck in the rut of only being able to think of the 'law of Moses' in terms of it's literal way of serving God, and can't grasp the eternal requirements of God in it that get upheld, not removed, in this New Covenant by faith in Christ.

By saying better promises, the Holy Spirit is indicating that the Promises that were given to Abraham, have now become better. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

What does this have to do with the discussion. We both know this. This is not the point of contention.

The point of contention is that you resist calling what gets upheld by faith in this New Covenant is the law of Moses, even though that's what the Bible plainly says. You resist it because you can still only think of the law of Moses in regard to it's literal first covenant way of doing things. That is what got laid aside. The Bible makes this distinction that you refuse to acknowledge.

The Tabernacle within the law, pointed to the reality of what has always been in Heaven.

The way we serve God is by faith, the same faith that Abraham walked in, when he himself was declared righteous before he was circumcised, 430 years before the law was added.

JLB

We know this, but the reason it's no basis for arguing that you can't call what we uphold in this New Covenant 'the law of Moses' is the plain fact that the Bible says we uphold the law of Moses in this New Covenant.

But, you won't get it as long as you can only hear that in terms of the literal way of the law of Moses. Which most in the church do hear it that way thanks to godless, spiritless men who made the 'law' and 'works' four letter words in the church.

The consequence being, now we have a church steeped in the belief that the requirements of the law of Moses 'went away' because salvation is so utterly by grace through faith alone that you can live in sin and still be saved on the Day of Wrath. Not knowing that you can still condemn yourself by what you do not obey. Way to go, guys.

 

[Sinthesis]

Rom 3:31

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Why do you suppose Strong's G2476 - histemi is translated as both 'establish' and 'uphold'? The actual point of contention here is over the meaning of this word. Look it up yourself. It does not mean 'fulfill'. The actual meaning of the verse is that only through faith in God's Messiah is Moses' law of works not toppled as being futile. Faith is the foundation of works. This is true of any works, not just those proscribed through Moses.

 

[Deborah13]

Rom 3:31

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Why do you suppose Strong's G2476 - histemi is translated as both 'establish' and 'uphold'? The actual point of contention here is over the meaning of this word. Look it up yourself. It does not mean 'fulfill'. The actual meaning of the verse is that only through faith in God's Messiah is Moses' law of works not toppled as being futile. Faith is the foundation of works. This is true of any works, not just those proscribed through Moses.

I really agree with this post. The part I bolded is rather how I see it although I never would have thought of that description.

When we obey God's laws we prove or show the righteousness of those laws. Not only did the law do it's job in bring us to the knowledge that we needed a Savior but that in order to live a happy, fulfilling life on this earth we need to do it God's way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 3:31

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Why do you suppose Strong's G2476 - histemi is translated as both 'establish' and 'uphold'?

This perhaps?

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

The actual point of contention here is over the meaning of this word.

I don't see how. The scriptures are straightforward about this.

Look it up yourself. It does not mean 'fulfill'.

What does faith in Christ and obedience according to the fruit of the Spirit uphold in the law of Moses that it does not also fulfill?

The actual meaning of the verse is that only through faith in God's Messiah is Moses' law of works not toppled as being futile.

"...not toppled..." IOW, upheld.

I'm not seeing your point.

Faith is the foundation of works. This is true of any works, not just those proscribed through Moses.

This completely negates Paul's message to us in Romans and Galatians.

It wasn't that the Jews didn't do works (Paul boasted of his own faultless, pre-Christ works). The problem is they did those works to secure a declaration of righteousness, not knowing that believing in the forgiveness of God through Christ is the only 'work' that can secure a declaration of righteousness:

"...the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works." (Romans 9:31-32 NIV)

So your statement is false. It is entirely possible for faith to not be the foundation of one's works. But it is true that the works that count with God are the works whose foundation is faith in the blood of Christ.

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When we obey God's laws we prove or show the righteousness of those laws.

Couldn't agree more. But sadly, many misunderstand the righteousness of the law of Moses as 'going away' in this New Covenant. Not realizing that when we have faith in Christ and walk in the fruit of that faith we uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses, not trample it underfoot.

And just because some of those requirements get fulfilled in a different way now than the law of Moses commanded, they get fulfilled nonetheless. Christ being the sacrifice for sin required by the law of Moses being the perfect example. Christ's sacrifice, though not to the letter of the law of the way of the first covenant, is still the fulfillment and upholding of that law nonetheless.

 

[JLB]

Couldn't agree more. But sadly, many misunderstand the righteousness of the law of Moses as 'going away' in this New Covenant. Not realizing that when we have faith in Christ and walk in the fruit of that faith we uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses, not trample it underfoot.

And just because some of those requirements get fulfilled in a different way now than the law of Moses commanded, they get fulfilled nonetheless. Christ being the sacrifice for sin required by the law of Moses being the perfect example. Christ's sacrifice, though not to the letter of the law of the way of the first covenant, is still the fulfillment and upholding of that law nonetheless.

But sadly, many misunderstand the righteousness of the law of Moses as 'going away'

Tell me, is it a requirement of righteousness to obey this command from the law of Moses.

14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Exodus 31:14


Yes or No?

Was the requirement to put to death someone who did not rest on the sabbath day, before the law of Moses?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said:

I showed you the old way and the new way right in our own Bibles.

Chapter and verse, please sir.

Jethro said:

Then you do not understand what I, or the Bible, are saying if you think I'm somehow saying the old covenant way of performing God's requirements for a Priestly ministry is the standard and Christ's ministry and way of fulfilling those requirements is the pattern.

The point is, Hebrews calls the the copy of the heavenly reality the OLD and FIRST covenant. It's impossible to argue the point. You make the mistake of thinking that just because I say what the Bible says it means I think the old covenant was somehow the original.

Let's look at that verse -

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

The old covenant, the law of Moses, was declared obsolete, when God Himself declared the New Covenant through the mouth of Jeremiah.

It vanished away at the inception of the New Covenant at the cross.


4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Hebrews 8:4-7

The Covenant of Sinai has vanished away. The law of Moses has vanished away.

What remains is God's law that was seen within the law of Moses.

Jethro said:

What you're not grasping is the old covenant is the WAY of serving the heavenly realities that was added, and then taken away.

The law of Moses required a high priest to enter the the holy of holies.

Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, as well as all the torah and the prophets.

You yourself did not fulfill that, Jesus did.

If you yourself were born under the law, and required to keep the law of Moses with ALL of the reimbursements of the law of Moses, then your faith in Him and what He did to fulfill the law of Moses and ALL OF IT'S requirements, are satisfied by your faith in Him.

We as Gentiles are not grafted into that Covenant.

We are grafted into the Covenant that God made with Abraham.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. Romans 9:30-32


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Tell me, is it a requirement of righteousness to obey this command from the law of Moses.

14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Exodus 31:14


Yes or No?

Yes.
You're still thinking in terms of the literal way of the law of Moses.

If you, or I, profane God's appointed Sabbath, Jesus Christ, we will most certainly die. If you want to raise objections to this as being a legitimate fulfillment of the requirement for Sabbath Rest found in the law, just remember that Jesus Christ satisfies the law's requirement for sacrifice for sin, even though it obviously does not conform to the literal way of the law of Moses, but satisfies that law nonetheless.

Was the requirement to put to death someone who did not rest on the sabbath day, before the law of Moses?

You mean the literal way of the law of Moses? I do not know. As far as I know it is not recorded in the Bible whether that was practiced or not. Probably not.

What we can be sure of is that everyone who violated God's Sabbath Rest just as I explained above, but in regard to faith in God (Jesus Christ not having been revealed yet), died the same way we die for not having faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Chapter and verse, please sir.

Oi vey!

I will go back and cut and paste the references I posted before from Hebrews.

This tries my patience, but I know this is not easy for the church to see, even when you show it to them. I'm not insulting you, so don't take it that way, but it's amazing how far off from the truth the church is today. We just keep innocently propagating the mis-truths that were introduced into the church by misguided, uneducated men long ago, until we've come to the point where we are now. But I know this was going to be a feature of the last days church.

I'll be back. Brain surgeries are lining up!

 

[JLB]

Oi vey!

I will go back and cut and paste the references I posted before from Hebrews.

This tries my patience, but I know this is not easy to see for the church to see, even when you show it to them. I'm not insulting you, so don't take it that way, but it's amazing how far off from the truth the church is today. We just keep innocently propagating the mis-truths that were introduced into the church by misguided, uneducated men long ago, until we've come to the point where we are now. But I know this was going to be a feature of the last days church.

I'll be back. Brain surgeries are lining up!

Remember, I am all about keeping and literally doing the 10 commandments.

Your faith in Christ for salvation does not excuse you from not stealing, not lying, not committing adultery...

I hope you can see the difference.

JLB

 

[reba]

I do not see any difference only the words we use to describe 'it' are slightly different.... the argument is just lain ol silly . pages and pages over the years and all i see is over all the same... member reba

argue away just stay with in the TOS moderator reba

 

[Jethro Bodine]

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

The old covenant, the law of Moses, was declared obsolete, when God Himself declared the New Covenant through the mouth of Jeremiah.

It vanished away at the inception of the New Covenant at the cross.


4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Hebrews 8:4-7

The Covenant of Sinai has vanished away. The law of Moses has vanished away.

Yes, the literal way and system of the law of Moses vanished away because it is no longer needed for a people brought near to God through the new WAY of faith in Jesus Christ and his ministry.

What remains is God's law that was seen within the law of Moses.

No doubt about it.

But to insist you can not call those laws 'the law of Moses' is simply un-Biblical. And in a church that has been trained by the church to believe they can't call the requirements of God the 'law of Moses' it's almost impossible for the church to read plain scripture that teaches to the contrary and believe what they're reading. That's how the power of an indoctrination works. We all have them impressed on us by the church. It seems we spend a lifetime sifting through those indoctrinations and eventually coming to the truth. That is if we're humble enough to let that happen.

The law of Moses required a high priest to enter the the holy of holies.

Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, as well as all the torah and the prophets.

You yourself did not fulfill that, Jesus did.

Right. But I apply that fulfilment to myself when I place my faith in what Jesus did. That is how the law of Moses gets satisfied for me--by having faith in what Christ did, and by that same faith daily, minute by minute, following the impulse of the Holy Spirit rising up inside of me to act in accordance with the fruit of the Spirit.

Christ fulfilled the ceremonial and worship requirements of the law of Moses, and I apply that fulfillment to myself by faith in his work on the cross and in the heavenly Tabernacle. I fulfill the moral requirements of the law of Moses when I obey the impulse of the Spirit to walk according to the fruit of the Spirit summarized in the fruit of 'love'. When I have faith in Christ AND obey according to the fruit of the Holy Spirit I fulfill and uphold the law of Moses, not remove myself from it's requirements as the church teaches.

If you yourself were born under the law, and required to keep the law of Moses with ALL of the reimbursements of the law of Moses, then your faith in Him and what He did to fulfill the law of Moses and ALL OF IT'S requirements, are satisfied by your faith in Him.

We as Gentiles are not grafted into that Covenant.

We are grafted into the Covenant that God made with Abraham.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. Romans 9:30-32


JLB

Don't have time to dissect this and try to glean the exact point your making, so all I can say right now is the end of the old covenant, and the coming of the New Covenant is for both Jew and gentile, but you seem to be keeping the Jews in the letter of the law of the old covenant, while you say out the other side of your mouth how bad it is to keep that old covenant. You'll have to explain more about this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Remember, I am all about keeping and literally doing the 10 commandments.

Your faith in Christ for salvation does not excuse you from not stealing, not lying, not committing adultery...

I hope you can see the difference.

JLB

I understand perfectly.

I think the point of contention is you do not think it correct to say that doing that is upholding the requirements of the law of Moses, but rather some different law than the law of Moses (the intent being, I believe, to somehow release us from a vague and scary sense of being 'under', and subject to the law of Moses, as that is understood literally). But the Bible says we uphold the law of Moses.

The problem is the church has been taught to only be able to think of the law of Moses in terms of it's literal way of fulfilling it's own requirements. But the Bible does not do this.

 

[JLB]

If you want to continue making up things up about what I say, such as while you say out the other side of your mouth how bad it is to keep that old covenant, which is pure nonsense!

I just got through saying that the ten commandments are God's law and need to be kept literally, and you turn right around and say that I said; how bad it is to keep that old covenant...

How do you, in your mind, connect these two completely opposite statements?

What thought process, within you, brought you to this conclusion?

Is this the same thought process that brought you to conclude that Gentile Christians and under Moses law?

I am asking you an honest question.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You see the problem is, JLB, you have failed to address the following for me at least twice, so you have left me wondering about what you are driving at when you talk about the law being given to the Jews only and how it relates to this discussion. Here is one of those requests copied here so you can address if for me finally:

And, please, don't forget to address this:

<a href="http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ing-his-comandments.50030/page-21#post-857630">The Law, works and keeping his comandments</a>

Your contentions about the law only being for Jews will make more sense if you can straighten out the contradiction in your doctrine about the matter.

If you do this before you address anything else I can then be clear on what point you are trying to make whenever you bring up your argument that the law of Moses of was given to the Jews and not the gentiles and why that has bearing on whether or not we gentiles uphold the law of Moses when we, too, have faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not see any difference only the words we use to describe 'it' are slightly different.... the argument is just lain ol silly . pages and pages over the years and all i see is over all the same... member reba

argue away just stay with in the TOS moderator reba

Reba, the church is scared to death that you're suggesting that they have to submit to the Festival and Sabbath schedule again whenever you bring up the forbidden word of Christianity, 'law'. It's a ridiculous, irrational fear that closes the eyes and the ears of the church to the truth about the law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

You see the problem is, JLB, you have failed to address the following for me at least twice, so you have left me wondering about what you are driving at when you talk about the law being given to the Jews only and how it relates to this discussion. Here is one of those requests copied here so you can address if for me finally:

And, please, don't forget to address this:

<a href="http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ing-his-comandments.50030/page-21#post-857630">The Law, works and keeping his comandments</a>

Your contentions about the law only being for Jews will make more sense if you can straighten out the contradiction in your doctrine about the matter.

If you do this before you address anything else I can then be clear on what point you are trying to make whenever you bring up your argument that the law of Moses of was given to the Jews and not the gentiles and why that has bearing on whether or not we gentiles uphold the law of Moses when we, too, have faith.

Show me from the law of Moses where uncircumcised Gentiles from other nations are required to keep the Sabbath.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How does this decide whether gentiles who have faith in this New Covenant uphold the law of Moses, or not, in this New Covenant?

 

[JLB]

Reba, the church is scared to death that you're suggesting that they have to submit to the Festival and Sabbath schedule again whenever you bring up the forbidden word of Christianity, 'law'. It's a ridiculous, irrational fear that closes the eyes and the ears of the church to the truth about the law of Moses.

Does the law of Moses require those under the law to keep the specified feasts?

 

[JLB]

How does this decide whether gentiles who have faith in this New Covenant uphold the law of Moses, or not, in this New Covenant?

Show me from the law of Moses where uncircumcised Gentiles from other nations, are required to keep the Sabbath or any other law of Moses.

If it wasn't required then, how on earth can you teach people today that Uncircumcised Gentiles are required to uphold the law of Moses, under the new covenant?

Yet, you yourself can not seem see this simple truth.


JLB