The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[JLB]

How does being led by the Spirit NOT fulfill the law of Moses? Explain. Paul says it does.



That is not the point. Just tell me how loving people does NOT fulfill the law of Moses. Paul says it does.



So the law of Moses is a subset of the laws of God, yet walking by the Spirit fulfills God's law, but not the law of Moses. How does that work? Paul says the law of Moses is fulfilled by walking in the Spirit. Explain why you disagree.



If, as you are suggesting, walking by the Spirit fulfills the greater law of God, how can it not fulfill the lesser law of Moses, a subset of the law of God? Explain this. Paul says it does.



So somehow when I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. I fulfill God's law, but not the subset of God's law, the law of Moses, that has the exact same requirements of law in it. How does that work? Paul says very, very clearly I DO fulfill the law of Moses when I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. But you say I do not.


This is what you have to overcome (the plain words of scripture) for your doctrine to be even remotely true:

"14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”" (Galatians 5: NIV)

This is what you have to overcome [the plain words of scripture] for your doctrine to be even remotely true.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Love your neighbor as your

This is what you have to overcome [the plain words of scripture] for your doctrine to be even remotely true.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18


JLB

Obviously, 'not under the law' can't mean 'not having to uphold the law'. But if you go with what Paul says, that 'under the law' means 'under the condemnation of the law', it makes perfect sense.

If you are led by the Spirit, upholding the law, you will not be under the condemnation of the law for not upholding it.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[JLB]

"Love your neighbor as your

Obviously, 'not under the law' can't mean 'not having to uphold the law'. But if you go with what Paul says, that 'under the law' means 'under the condemnation of the law', it makes perfect sense.

If you are led by the Spirit, upholding the law, you will not be under the condemnation of the law for not upholding it.

Makes perfect sense.

EDITED

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Show me how your interpretation makes sense.

I already showed you, with supporting scripture, how mine does.

 

[JLB]

Show me how your interpretation makes sense.

I already showed you, with supporting scripture, how mine does.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law, therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith, but after faith has come, we are no longer under the law..

 

[reba]

I kinda see this battle like this....

At one time the Laws Given from God held the people under His thumb, so to speak, with heavy suppression like an anvil ... Now through His Grace Those laws are light weight not suppressing as if they are held up by the Cross, Mercy, Grace his Blood etc. They are there, we know and understand for the most part how they apply today... from the ceremonial laws to the be good to your neighbour ones.. They show is in many ways how Jesus is our High Priest and our Lamb.... We understand the value of restitution if we commit a wrong....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law, therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith, but after faith has come, we are no longer under the law..

Yes, added "because of transgressions" (Galatians 3:19 NIV). Paul said the law was given to make us "conscious of our sin" (Romans 3:20 NIV)...IOW, to condemn the world of it's sin and make "the whole world accountable to God" (Romans 3:19 NIV).

That's what it means to be 'under' the law, and then to not be under the law. When the law came we came under the authority of the law to condemn us because of our sins. THAT'S why it was added--to increase sin so that "through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful" (Romans 7:13 NIV). But in Christ, that sin is taken away and with it the condemnation of the law for that sin. The righteous requirements of the law didn't go away with Christ. The condemnation of law for sin guilt we no longer have in Christ is what went away.

But if you want to make 'not under the law' mean 'not under the righteous requirements of the law anymore' you must explain how Paul can say we 'uphold the law' and 'we're not under the upholding of the law' at the same time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I kinda see this battle like this....

At one time the Laws Given from God held the people under His thumb, so to speak, with heavy suppression like an anvil ... Now through His Grace Those laws are light weight not suppressing as if they are held up by the Cross, Mercy, Grace his Blood etc.

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 7 when he talks about the sin nature being the thing that gives the law it's weight of condemnation and power to keep us locked in our sins. He explains how In Christ what gets removed is the sin nature, so the law no longer has the weight of authority to keep us locked in our sins.

When Christ took away the sin nature, the condemnation of the law went with it. The righteous requirements of the law that the old nature violated did not go away. The new nature is now our power to uphold them.

 

[JLB]

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 7 when he talks about the sin nature being the thing that gives the law it's weight of condemnation and power to keep us locked in our sins. He explains how In Christ what gets removed is the sin nature, so the law no longer has the weight of authority to keep us locked in our sins.

When Christ took away the sin nature, the condemnation of the law went with it. The righteous requirements of the law that the old nature violated did not go away. The new nature is now our power to uphold them.

The sin nature is still with us

 

[JLB]

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 7 when he talks about the sin nature being the thing that gives the law it's weight of condemnation and power to keep us locked in our sins. He explains how In Christ what gets removed is the sin nature, so the law no longer has the weight of authority to keep us locked in our sins.

When Christ took away the sin nature, the condemnation of the law went with it. The righteous requirements of the law that the old nature violated did not go away. The new nature is now our power to uphold them.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23


4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. Romans 7:4-5


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:14-16

 

[JLB]

Jethro said:
But if you want to make 'not under the law' mean 'not under the righteous requirements of the law anymore' you must explain how Paul can say we 'uphold the law' and 'we're not under the upholding of the law' at the same time.

We are not under the law of Moses.

We are under the Law of God.

When we walk after the Spirit, which is to say, led by the Spirit there is no condemnation.

Condemnation from what law? The law of Moses? No sir.

The law of sin and death. The law of God.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:21-25

The law of Moses defined the sin, in the law of sin and death.

Sin has been around from the beginning, with Adam.

that is why Paul says, What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;

There were transgressions before the law of Moses. Moses law defined what these transgressions were, rather the sin of the transgressions.

So, when the law of Moses vanished away and was replaced by the New Covenant, the law of sin and death still remains.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23


4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. Romans 7:4-5


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:14-16

And your point is? You'll have to explain. It looks like you're saying the law we're not under is sin(?)

Notice what died. Sinful flesh died. When sinful flesh died the law no longer has power to exacerbate sin in me and condemn me because of that sin. With flesh now dead, the law no longer acts like a marriage license that keeps me bound to sinful flesh.

And now that sin no longer has dominion over me (it died in Christ) I can now uphold that which I could not uphold in the law before because of sinful flesh. But the church has been taught that what Paul is saying is the requirements of the law went away . No, the dominion of sinful flesh went away. And with it the authority and power of the law to condemn me and arouse sin in me all the more.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are not under the law of Moses.

We are under the Law of God.

When we walk after the Spirit, which is to say, led by the Spirit there is no condemnation.

Condemnation from what law? The law of Moses? No sir.

The law of sin and death. The law of God.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

The 'law' of sin and death is 'you sin, you die', the law of Moses being the standard by which that death is pronounced.
The 'law' of faith is 'believe and you will live'.

Back later....

 

[JLB]

And your point is? You'll have to explain. It looks like you're saying the law we're not under is sin(?)

Notice what died. Sinful flesh died. When sinful flesh died the law no longer has power to exacerbate sin in me and condemn me because of that sin. With flesh now dead, the law no longer acts like a marriage license that keeps me bound to sinful flesh.

And now that sin no longer has dominion over me (it died in Christ) I can now uphold that which I could not uphold in the law before because of sinful flesh. But the church has been taught that what Paul is saying is the requirements of the law went away . No, the dominion of sinful flesh went away. And with it the authority and power of the law to condemn me and arouse sin in me all the more.

Sinful flesh went away?

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

What's goes away is condemnation, IF you do not follow the desires of the sinful flesh.

IF you do not present yourself as a slave of sin.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sinful flesh went away?

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

What's goes away is condemnation, IF you do not follow the desires of the sinful flesh.

IF you do not present yourself as a slave of sin.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


JLB

The authority and dominion of sinful flesh to make us sin went away. It was crucified with Christ. The old nature--the mindset controlled by the desires of the flesh--is what died thus releasing us from the condemnation of the law (because we don't violate the law when we walk in the mindset of the Spirit--the new nature). We weren't released from the requirements of the law when our minds became new in Christ. The new mindset of the Spirit we received UPHOLDS the law that the mindset of the flesh could not keep--the old mindset that the law empowered to actually stir sin up in us, not subdue it.

See, your doctrine has the requirements of the law going away. My doctrine has the mindset of the flesh (the old nature) going away releasing us from the condemnation of the law (for not doing it), and releasing us from the power of the law to keep SINFUL flesh, not crucified flesh, in bondage to lawlessness. Crucified flesh, through the new mindset of the Spirit, does not release us from the requirements of the law. Crucified flesh, through the new mindset of the Spirit, the mind of Christ, releases us from the flesh and the authority of law to empower flesh to now in fact UPHOLD the requirements of the law. You're focusing on the law. You should be focusing on what happened to the flesh--that is, the mindset of the flesh, the old nature--in this discussion about the law.

old nature--the mind controlled by the desires of the flesh.

new nature--the mind controlled by the desires of the Spirit.

This, to me, is the only way to explain the replacing of the old sin nature with the new nature, but still explain how we are bothered and harassed by the sinful desires of our bodies that we are taught by the church are dead and gone, but which tempt us to entertain them again. But In this new mindset controlled by the Spirit--our new nature--we crucify those desires and UPHOLD the requirements of law we once trampled underfoot while in the old mindset controlled by the flesh (which caved in so easily to those desires, and was even energized by the law).

The requirements of the law did not go away. The mindset controlled by the flesh, and empowered to be all the more sinful by the righteous requirements of the law, is what went away. Releasing us to now uphold, not trample underfoot the righteous requirements of the law...and in the new way of the Spirit, not in the old way of Moses and the first covenant.

 

[JLB]

God's law is what we uphold.

The righteous requirement of God's law is obedience. To obey His Voice.

Without hearing His Voice, there is no faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God's law is what we uphold.

What requirement of the law of Moses does not get upheld by faith that gets upheld in 'God's law' by faith? An especially important and relevant question since we both agree that the requirements of the law of Moses are simply the codified revelation of 'God's law' already in existence and known to men, to one extent or another, before that law was codified at Mt. Sinai.

The righteous requirement of God's law is obedience. To obey His Voice.

What requirements satisfy God's requirement to be obedient?

Without hearing His Voice, there is no faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Yes, the NEW way of serving the eternal requirements of obedience for God's people.....through the Spirit, as opposed to the OLD way of serving those requirements in the powerlessness and condemnation and bondage of mere written words through the futile attempt of the sinful nature (the mind controlled by the desires of the flesh).
"...we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

 

[JLB]

What requirement of the law of Moses does not get upheld by faith that gets upheld in 'God's law' by faith? An especially important and relevant question since we both agree that the requirements of the law of Moses are simply the codified revelation of 'God's law' already in existence and known to men, to one extent or another, before that law was codified at Mt. Sinai.



What requirements satisfy God's requirement to be obedient?



Yes, the NEW way of serving the eternal requirements of obedience for God's people.....through the Spirit, as opposed to the OLD way of serving those requirements in the powerlessness and condemnation and bondage of mere written words through the futile attempt of the sinful nature (the mind controlled by the desires of the flesh).
"...we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

Not new way.

Abraham walked in this way of serving God.

New Covenant.

Not like the one where I led you out of Egypt...
They will all know Me...

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not new way.

Abraham walked in this way of serving God.

New Covenant.

Not like the one where I led you out of Egypt...
They will all know Me...

JLB

The new way IS the new covenant.

Hebrews contrasts the new way with the old way.

"1 We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being." 5 They (mere human beings) serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. (Hebrews 8:1-2,5 NIV)

Hebrews calls this old and new way of Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice the old and new covenants.

7 ...if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.8 But God found fault with the people... 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. (Hebrews 8:7-8, 13 NIV)

The new Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice is the New Covenant and serves the same requirements that the old covenant served according to it's old way of doing that. The requirements for Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice didn't change. The way they get fulfilled is what changed.

 

[JLB]

The new way IS the new covenant.

Hebrews contrasts the new way with the old way.

"1 We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being." 5 They (mere human beings) serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. (Hebrews 8:1-2,5 NIV)

Hebrews calls this old and new way of Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice the old and new covenants.

There is no phrase in this verse "old way" or "new way". You made this up and added it to this verse.

Hebrews contrasts the reality of Jesus Christ verses the shadow that pointed to the reality.

The Tabernacle in Heaven is eternal, and was before the copy.

The Tabernacle in Moses day was a copy, which means it was not the original.

Again, your understanding is 180 degrees backwards.

7 ...if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.8 But God found fault with the people... 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. (Hebrews 8:7-8, 13 NIV)

The new Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice is the New Covenant and serves the same requirements that the old covenant served according to it's old way of doing that. The requirements for Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice didn't change. The way they get fulfilled is what changed.

The Covenant at Sinai, the law of Moses, was added to and within the Abrahamic Covenant.

This Covenant has vanished away. What remains is the Covenant Of Abraham, that now is a better Covenant with better Promises.

By saying better promises, the Holy Spirit is indicating that the Promises that were given to Abraham, have now become better. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The Tabernacle within the law, pointed to the reality of what has always been in Heaven.

The way we serve God is by faith, the same faith that Abraham walked in, when he himself was declared righteous before he was circumcised, 430 years before the law was added.


JLB