Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

[Humblepie]

Romans 3:26-31
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Here Paul rules out antinomianism as a valid response to his explanation of justification through faith. Being justified by faith doesn't mean one can throw off all moral constraints and live just as one pleases. Instead, the Law of God, which is aimed fundamentally at righteousness, is established in the life of the Christian person. How? Paul went on to explain:

Romans 4:2-5
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

By trusting in Christ and the promises and power of God, righteousness is credited to an ungodly person by God. By this means, the righteousness embodied by God's Law is established, not by law-keeping, but by faith. So, then, Romans 3:31 is not urging legalism - law-keeping - but exactly the opposite!

You fail to grasp what I'm telling you.

The law isn't there to justify us, it's there to show us what sin is, and points to WHY we need a savior.

When you eliminate the law, you turn a NARROW PATH into a 12 lane freeway and remove our accountability.
Where in the word does it say "moral law" or is that man's way to justify their excuse for eliminating "God's Law"

 

[Humblepie]

or, really, the interest

Then you fail to persuade me otherwise.

 

[RandyK]

Then you fail to persuade me otherwise.

There is so much misunderstanding on this subject, but I'm new to this forum. So I'm not going to read through all the threads before I start commenting. Just saying that I've dealt with this matter many times before. We are not sinless--we *overcome sin.* We fight it. We have a new nature from Christ that enables us to rule over our sin compulsions. We do not have to indulge in major sins, though we will always be tempted with attitude problems, etc.

The Works controversy between Protestants and Catholics is a confusion of issues. Faith Alone applies to Christ's exclusive redemption--we don't self-atone. Faith + Works applies to the definition of Faith, which necessarily *includes Works*--without Works Faith is dead.

So if our "Work" is to believe in Christ, we believe in his sacrifice for sin, and actively choose it and choose to follow him and do works in him at the same time we put our faith in him as our Savior. We choose to abandon independence from Christ to partner with Christ, with he being our final authority on all matters. But we do choose, and we do work, if we are to choose to live in him at all. James 2 and 1 John 2.

 

[Tenchi]

You fail to grasp what I'm telling you.

The law isn't there to justify us, it's there to show us what sin is, and points to WHY we need a savior.

Okay. Yes. God's Moral Law does this.

No one requires the OT Mosaic Law entailing rules concerning separation, and sacrifice and ceremony, however, to see the need to be justified by faith in Christ, the Savior.

Then you fail to persuade me otherwise.

My goal isn't ever to do so. I intended only to show what I did, not convince anyone of it. That's God's job, not mine.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You didn't answer the question I asked.

What was wrong with the Jeramiah and Ezekiel scriptures ?

Also you keep avoiding this.

Why do I need to answer ?
Most of your citings were either from the OT, where the Law was still in force, or NT scrip's referring to the past.

If you feel that circumcision and dietary rules are still in force, then keep them.
I don't see their relevance in NT life.
I will abide by the sayings of Jesus, who said...Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength: and love your neighbor as you love yourself...to inherit eternal life. (Luke 10:25-27)

 

[Hopeful 2]

And unsaved person is judged by the law and receives the penalty of the law (death)

As salvation won't be granted until the last day's judgement. I am going to change "saved" to "converted" in your question.
So, I will agree.

When we are saved, we have grace and we are not under the penalty (death) of the law..this is the law of sin and death.

If the conversion is true, you are correct.
If the conversion is false, nothing changes.

We are under the law of faith, but that doesn't eliminate the Law of God.

The ten commandments, and Jesus' Luke 10 requirements, are written in the hearts of the truly converted.
They are part of our new, divine nature.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul speaks of more than one law in Scripture, make sure you know what law he is speaking of before you think he is only speaking of the Torah, or God's law.

1. The Law of God (Romans 3:31; 7:22-25; 8:7)

2) The Law of Sin (Romans 7:23-25)

3) The Law of Sin and Death (Romans 8:2)


4) The Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2)

5) The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)

6) The Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:31)

7) The Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21)

The Law I always capitalize, is the Mosaic Law.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well kinda, we are not under the law of sin and death.

If one is still committing sin, which is a witness of non-repentance from sin and non-conversion, he is still under the Mosaic Law.
Sin, and die the second death !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Still waiting for an explanation.

How do make these fit in with the no law NT?

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 3:31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

Joshua 1:8
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

James 1:25
But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:21-22
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.


Proverbs 28
Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive against them. Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the Lord understand it completely.

Romans 13: 8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Psalms 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Romans 7:7
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Supra.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Just to be clear: There are two general types of laws from God. There is the OT Mosaic Law, occupied with separation, sacrifice and ceremony, that was given solely to the OT Israelites; and there is the Moral Law given to all humanity. The Mosaic Law is defunct, under the New Covenant; the Moral Law is not. In any case, law-keeping of any kind - Moral or Mosaic - can't properly satisfy God since our law-keeping can't ever meet God's standard, which is perfection. We needed Christ, the God-Man, who could do for us what none of us could ever do for ourselves both in perfectly fulfilling the Law of God and atoning for our sin

I am glad you can finally admit that !
Do you still think sinless perfection is a lie ?
Christ in us, the hope of glory !

 

[Humblepie]

Why do I need to answer ?
Most of your citings were either from the OT, where the Law was still in force, or NT scrip's referring to the past.

14 out of 18 scriptures quoted are in the NT, And none are written in past tense.

You and many won't discuss these scriptures because they know it goes outside the established doctrine they follow and they don't have a rebuttal to them, so they brush them aside.

 

[Humblepie]

Supra

I'm not following what that means.

 

[Hopeful 2]

14 out of 18 scriptures quoted are in the NT, And none are written in past tense.

You and many won't discuss these scriptures because they know it goes outside the established doctrine they follow and they don't have a rebuttal to them, so they brush them aside.

I know you are just trying to use scripture to somehow show man cannot live without committing sin.
I will be no part of your lie.
If you would like to discuss one scrip' at a time, I will do all that God allows me to answer.

 

[eddif]

There is so much misunderstanding on this subject, but I'm new to this forum. So I'm not going to read through all the threads before I start commenting. Just saying that I've dealt with this matter many times before. We are not sinless--we *overcome sin.* We fight it. We have a new nature from Christ that enables us to rule over our sin compulsions. We do not have to indulge in major sins, though we will always be tempted with attitude problems, etc.

The Works controversy between Protestants and Catholics is a confusion of issues. Faith Alone applies to Christ's exclusive redemption--we don't self-atone. Faith + Works applies to the definition of Faith, which necessarily *includes Works*--without Works Faith is dead.

So if our "Work" is to believe in Christ, we believe in his sacrifice for sin, and actively choose it and choose to follow him and do works in him at the same time we put our faith in him as our Savior. We choose to abandon independence from Christ to partner with Christ, with he being our final authority on all matters. But we do choose, and we do work, if we are to choose to live in him at all. James 2 and 1 John 2.

Welcome aboard.

Speed read as you can. It seems my speed reading is over.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[RandyK]

Welcome aboard.

Speed read as you can. It seems my speed reading is over.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I took a course many years ago in speed reading. Don't remember much about it though. ;)
I'm familiar with most all subjects, but am open to new info from a new forum. Thanks much!

 

[SuperKal]

I posted something similar and another thread, but I think it is worthwhile enough to be posted here as well, But I will also add some stuff to it, because having sat here and thought about it, and gone over what the scripture is saying in my mind, it's definitely worth repeating... and I'm not calling anyone here a heretic, or false teacher

The term "sinless perfection" Is a misnomer, and a term coined by those who disagree with the teaching of continual obedience. For those who I have spoken with, who teach continual obedience and are familiar with the term sinless perfection, they never once call it sinless perfection, or sinless perfectionism... on the contrary, we are called to be in continual obedience to Christ... I don't like labeling continual obedience as "sinless perfection" because that's not what continual obedience is, and I don't believe that sinless perfection is even possible in this current life...

it's not possible because, currently, we are still human beings, we still have this mortal body, and the only time which we become perfected, or glorified, is when Jesus Christ returns, and we are given immortal bodies, we when we put on incorruption, as the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

however, that does not mean that sin is an inevitability, or we can't help but sin. I know there are those who call themselves Christians, and believe that we have no power over sin, that we are still slaves to sin in this current life, and I'm sorry, the Bible just doesn't toast that. At all.

As the original poster have stated, Jesus himself said to "go and sin no more", John 8:11
To add on to this, the Apostle Paul himself states in first Corinthians 15:34 "awake to righteousness and do not sin"
John himself, again, says to sin not, in 1 John 2:1

As you can see, both Paul and John clearly say that we do have the ability to not commit sin, but Paul also makes it explicitly clear that we do not have sinless perfection, even in this life, and you can read that in 1 Corinthians 10:13, because we are all still tempted with sin... the only one who is sinlessly perfect currently is God, because he cannot be tempted... THAT is real sinless perfectionism

Paul and John encourage us to not commit sin, but even if we do sin, that does not mean that redemption and reconciliation is immediately cut off to us. Proverbs 24:16 tells us the following:

"For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity."

The writer of proverbs acknowledges that even a righteous man can fall, but the difference between a righteous man and a wicked man is that the righteous man gets back up and starts again, while the wicked man remains in the state of unrepentant sin... and that's what we need to recognize. As Christians, if, not when, but if we sin, we must repent of it, we must get back up again, we must continue our walk... Of course, the goal is, and always has been, to be more like Jesus Christ, to imitate Christ, to walk like he walked, and that is a life long journey.

I like what Leonard Ravenhill had to say about this matter:
You say I'm preaching sinless perfection. You say, "Well, do you think you can get to a place where you can't sin?" I know nothing of the kind. It is not impossible (for a Christian) to sin, but it's possible not to commit sin

 

[RandyK]

The term "sinless perfection" Is a misnomer, and a term coined by those who disagree with the teaching of continual obedience.

That isn't true with me. I use the term "sinless perfection" exactly as it is being used here, with the idea that people can live, at any time, without the Sin Nature, or without any taint of Sin.

But I do like your term, "Continual Obedience." I call it "Overcoming," but it means the same thing without the idea that while we're living in obedience we have no taint of Sin.

So the real issue, for me, is whether we can *ever* be living without any taint of sin while we're obeying the Lord? It has nothing to do with succumbing to sin or feeling we're unworthy or unable to deal with Sin, or even rationalize away our surrender to Sin. Rather, it has to do with the reality that even as we "overcome" sin we admit that sin is there in us, needing to be overcome!

The Sin Nature that is within us attempts to resist God's word--it's just that we've been given the ability to choose to resist that resistance to God's word.

We can do the right thing even as forces within us want to rebel against God's word. That compulsion within us to bypass or resist God's Word is, in fact, our Sin Nature, which is ever present within us. We simply have been given the power to "overcome" it! We do not complete expel it or annihilate it--we simply oppose it and overcome it.

So we are never perfect, as long as we live in these mortal bodies. But the point is, we can *never* be perfect while we live in these mortal bodies--not even while we are in obedience or overcoming Sin.

"Sinless Perfection" appears to say that when we obey God we are sinless. That is what concerns me!

I like what Leonard Ravenhill had to say about this matter:
You say I'm preaching sinless perfection...It is not impossible (for a Christian) to sin, but it's possible not to commit sin

The bold part in Ravenhill's quote is mine above. Is that suggesting we can be perfect while we obey God? I think so.

Some of the problem when quoting the Bible is lingual. When the Bible tells us we don't have to Sin it is not talking about Sinless Perfection. It is just talking about overcoming Sin. So we need to get it right.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I posted something similar and another thread, but I think it is worthwhile enough to be posted here as well, But I will also add some stuff to it, because having sat here and thought about it, and gone over what the scripture is saying in my mind, it's definitely worth repeating... and I'm not calling anyone here a heretic, or false teacher

The term "sinless perfection" Is a misnomer, and a term coined by those who disagree with the teaching of continual obedience. For those who I have spoken with, who teach continual obedience and are familiar with the term sinless perfection, they never once call it sinless perfection, or sinless perfectionism... on the contrary, we are called to be in continual obedience to Christ... I don't like labeling continual obedience as "sinless perfection" because that's not what continual obedience is, and I don't believe that sinless perfection is even possible in this current life...

it's not possible because, currently, we are still human beings, we still have this mortal body, and the only time which we become perfected, or glorified, is when Jesus Christ returns, and we are given immortal bodies, we when we put on incorruption, as the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:52-54.

however, that does not mean that sin is an inevitability, or we can't help but sin. I know there are those who call themselves Christians, and believe that we have no power over sin, that we are still slaves to sin in this current life, and I'm sorry, the Bible just doesn't toast that. At all.

As the original poster have stated, Jesus himself said to "go and sin no more", John 8:11
To add on to this, the Apostle Paul himself states in first Corinthians 15:34 "awake to righteousness and do not sin"
John himself, again, says to sin not, in 1 John 2:1

As you can see, both Paul and John clearly say that we do have the ability to not commit sin, but Paul also makes it explicitly clear that we do not have sinless perfection, even in this life, and you can read that in 1 Corinthians 10:13, because we are all still tempted with sin... the only one who is sinlessly perfect currently is God, because he cannot be tempted... THAT is real sinless perfectionism

Paul and John encourage us to not commit sin, but even if we do sin, that does not mean that redemption and reconciliation is immediately cut off to us. Proverbs 24:16 tells us the following:

"For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity."

The writer of proverbs acknowledges that even a righteous man can fall, but the difference between a righteous man and a wicked man is that the righteous man gets back up and starts again, while the wicked man remains in the state of unrepentant sin... and that's what we need to recognize. As Christians, if, not when, but if we sin, we must repent of it, we must get back up again, we must continue our walk... Of course, the goal is, and always has been, to be more like Jesus Christ, to imitate Christ, to walk like he walked, and that is a life long journey.

I like what Leonard Ravenhill had to say about this matter:
You say I'm preaching sinless perfection. You say, "Well, do you think you can get to a place where you can't sin?" I know nothing of the kind. It is not impossible (for a Christian) to sin, but it's possible not to commit sin

Welcome to the site.
Is there really a difference between perfectly obedient and perfectly sinless ?

The condition of the vessel has no bearing on sinlessness or obedience.
How can it ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

That isn't true with me. I use the term "sinless perfection" exactly as it is being used here, with the idea that people can live, at any time, without the Sin Nature, or without any taint of Sin.

But I do like your term, "Continual Obedience." I call it "Overcoming," but it means the same thing without the idea that while we're living in obedience we have no taint of Sin.

So the real issue, for me, is whether we can *ever* be living without any taint of sin while we're obeying the Lord? It has nothing to do with succumbing to sin or feeling we're unworthy or unable to deal with Sin, or even rationalize away our surrender to Sin. Rather, it has to do with the reality that even as we "overcome" sin we admit that sin is there in us, needing to be overcome!

The Sin Nature that is within us attempts to resist God's word--it's just that we've been given the ability to choose to resist that resistance to God's word.

We can do the right thing even as forces within us want to rebel against God's word. That compulsion within us to bypass or resist God's Word is, in fact, our Sin Nature, which is ever present within us. We simply have been given the power to "overcome" it! We do not complete expel it or annihilate it--we simply oppose it and overcome it.

So we are never perfect, as long as we live in these mortal bodies. But the point is, we can *never* be perfect while we live in these mortal bodies--not even while we are in obedience or overcoming Sin.

"Sinless Perfection" appears to say that when we obey God we are sinless. That is what concerns me!

The bold part in Ravenhill's quote is mine above. Is that suggesting we can be perfect while we obey God? I think so.

Some of the problem when quoting the Bible is lingual. When the Bible tells us we don't have to Sin it is not talking about Sinless Perfection. It is just talking about overcoming Sin. So we need to get it right.

How can a new creature have an old nature ? (2 Cor 5:17)
Do you recall Jesus saying..."No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." (Matt 9:16-17)
God won't put His Spirit in an old, sin nature filled, vessel.

 

[RandyK]

How can a new creature have an old nature ? (2 Cor 5:17)

When there is a fire outside, after some months you may have new growth as well as some old growth. After the "fire" of sin entered into our bodies, we can get Born Again and have some new growth, even as we live in our old bodies and continue to have "old growth."

Do you recall Jesus saying..."No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

Yes, we need to be Born Again. But we continue to live in our old bodies. Those old bodies do indeed continue to get old, wrinkle, and burst/die.

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." (Matt 9:16-17)
God won't put His Spirit in an old, sin nature filled, vessel.

If God doesn't put His Spirit in our old bodies, we won't get saved. We don't receive Salvation only after our resurrection into new bodies. We get saved now, while we are still living in our old bodies.

Rom 8.11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

You have to get the metaphor right. We don't get the Spirit unless we get Born Again. But we get Born Again while we are still living in our old bodies.

Until we are resurrected into new immortal bodies, we will continue to have the effects of the Sin Nature. We have a compulsion to do wrong, but we can indeed overcome those impulses by directing our mind and heart to God's Word.

When we're Born Again, we have a New Nature that we can draw upon. Unborn Again people can do right. But when we're Born Again, we have a nature that is replete with a New Character that we can claim as our own.

We don't just do right because we can. We do right because we've chosen to adopt that Nature and we adopt not just right behaviors but a character that finds it in character to do that kind of thing.