Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Bible Study The Lie of Sinless Perfection.

Do you have an OT scripture that foretells the elimination of the law of moses?
I would start with Jesus' words in Luke 16:16..."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
The writer of Hebrews 8:6 adds..."But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."
In the OT, Jeramiah 31:31 says..."Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"
Ezekiel wrote..."
  1. Ezekiel 34:25
    And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
  2. Ezekiel 37:26
    Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Paul notes, in Col 2..."14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

Some OT verses promising a new covenant, and some NT verses attesting to its arrival.
 
I never claimed the law can save you, as I've said to you in many post many times.
So why are you defending it now in the NT ?
The law only defines what sin is and points to the savior.
No law=no sin
Just as there was sin in the time before the Law of Moses, sin will continue on until the end.
Before the OT, there was sin but it wasn't imputed. (Rom 5:130
No sin means we don't need a savior to forgive our sin.
Paul writes..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Tim 1:9-10)
If one is still committing sin, he is still under the Law.
Those Jesus has made righteous, are not.
 
Do you have an OT scripture that foretells the elimination of the law of moses?

I would start with Jesus' words in Luke 16:16..."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
The writer of Hebrews 8:6 adds..."But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."
In the OT, Jeramiah 31:31 says..."Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"
Ezekiel wrote..."
  1. Ezekiel 34:25
    And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
  2. Ezekiel 37:26
    Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Paul notes, in Col 2..."14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

Some OT verses promising a new covenant, and some NT verses attesting to its arrival.

You didn't answer the question I asked.

Also you keep avoiding this.

How do make these fit in with the no law NT?

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 3:31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

Joshua 1:8
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

James 1:25
But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:21-22
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.


Proverbs 28
Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive against them. Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the Lord understand it completely.

Romans 13: 8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Psalms 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Romans 7:7
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
 
Paul notes, in Col 2..."14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
The law came with blessings and curses, so he either isn't speaking of the law, or he is only talking of the curse of the law. The blessings were not against us.
 
If one is still committing sin, he is still under the Law.
And unsaved person is judged by the law and receives the penalty of the law (death)
When we are saved, we have grace and we are not under the penalty (death) of the law..this is the law of sin and death.



We are under the law of faith, but that doesn't eliminate the Law of God.
 
If one is still committing sin, he is still under the Law.

Paul speaks of more than one law in Scripture, make sure you know what law he is speaking of before you think he is only speaking of the Torah, or God's law.

1. The Law of God (Romans 3:31; 7:22-25; 8:7)

2) The Law of Sin (Romans 7:23-25)

3) The Law of Sin and Death (Romans 8:2)


4) The Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2)

5) The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)

6) The Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:31)

7) The Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21)
 
Do you have an OT scripture that foretells the elimination of the law of moses?
I suggest you read the book of Ezekiel carefully. Ezekiel has a section on the dispersion of those who mourn over the sins of Israel. This is not a punishment dispersion Into the nations (for punishment), but a dispersion for protection.

Ezekiel talks of the stony heart. The law in hearts and minds is mentioned by other prophets, but Ezekiel has some chapters about those who mourn.

I think it took 3 reads before I could clearly see the other punishment dispersions and the protection dispersion.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
I suggest you read the book of Ezekiel carefully. Ezekiel has a section on the dispersion of those who mourn over the sins of Israel. This is not a punishment dispersion Into the nations (for punishment), but a dispersion for protection.

Ezekiel talks of the stony heart. The law in hearts and minds is mentioned by other prophets, but Ezekiel has some chapters about those who mourn.

I think it took 3 reads before I could clearly see the other punishment dispersions and the protection dispersion.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Mississippi redneck
eddif
Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Verse 27. States be careful to keep my laws with your new heart of flesh. nowhere did it say he will remove the law, this only solidifies my point.

I have read this scripture many times as well concerning the new covenant.
 
Well, what do you mean by "coincide"? The Old Covenant clashes very directly and sharply with New Covenant in a variety of ways. Just read Hebrews, or Paul's letter to the Galatian believers.
I know the antisemites and antinomians have taught that for almost 2 millennia, but it is simply not true. The New Covenant is a clear and logical extension, the next step as it were, of the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenants.

The Bible in its whole is a seamless unity.
 
If you read the whole book and see two dispersions and the mark placed on foreheads of those who mourned over the sins of Israel. The removal (just as death of evil people were starting).

I still suggest a personal search. Let the Holy Spirit should direct the search.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Just cut-and-paste from these posts the portions you think warrant my attention. I'm not going to scroll back through the thread to read them.



Well, what do you mean by "coincide"? The Old Covenant clashes very directly and sharply with New Covenant in a variety of ways. Just read Hebrews, or Paul's letter to the Galatian believers.



Yes, but He has changed the dynamic within which we interact with Him very profoundly. Though He has not changed in His essential being, the manner of our interactions certainly has.



??? It most certainly has changed! Enormously. Finally, in and through Jesus Christ, we have God within us in the Person of the Holy Spirit whose life and work transforms us. It is not longer our effort, our self-discipline, our power to attain to the Law that achieves a holy life for God, but the life of Christ given to us in the Spirit (Romans 8:9-16) that manifests in and through us (2 Corinthians 3:18; Philippians 1:6; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, etc.).

After reading that, I have to ask why you think the ability to be obedient to God is a lie ?

Still waiting for an explanation.

How do make these fit in with the no law NT?

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 3:31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

Joshua 1:8
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

James 1:25
But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:21-22
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.


Proverbs 28
Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive against them. Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the Lord understand it completely.

Romans 13: 8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Psalms 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Romans 7:7
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
 
No where does Jeremiah state that the new covenant eliminated the law.


No where.

If the law were eliminated then the prophets would have said it first.

Just to be clear: There are two general types of laws from God. There is the OT Mosaic Law, occupied with separation, sacrifice and ceremony, that was given solely to the OT Israelites; and there is the Moral Law given to all humanity. The Mosaic Law is defunct, under the New Covenant; the Moral Law is not. In any case, law-keeping of any kind - Moral or Mosaic - can't properly satisfy God since our law-keeping can't ever meet God's standard, which is perfection. We needed Christ, the God-Man, who could do for us what none of us could ever do for ourselves both in perfectly fulfilling the Law of God and atoning for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:6-10; Hebrews 9-10:22, etc.).

There are many things about the New Testament Church about which the prophets said nothing. Why should we think, then, that they would have anything explicit to say about the setting aside of the Mosaic Law under the New Covenant?

Romans 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 2:9-16
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.


Paul indicates here that God shows no favor to the Jew over the Greek (aka - Gentile). Both must give account for their conduct to their Maker and will be rewarded accordingly. This statement by Paul is vital to understanding everything that follows to the end of chapter 2. The Jew doesn't get a "pass" from God because he's a Jew and keeps the Mosaic Laws of separation, ceremony and sacrifice; he will face the same justice of God that the Gentile will face.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Whether a Jew acting under the Mosaic Law or a Gentile who has no obligation to, or knowledge of, that Law, both will endure consequences, though judged by different standards. Paul is clearly dissolving the Jewish belief in their superiority over the Gentile because of their adherence to the Mosaic Law.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.


The Jew who knows the Mosaic Law is not justified by that knowledge alone, Paul points out here. It is the Jew who not only knows but keeps the Law who will be justified before God (if he does so perfectly - Matthew 5:48).

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,


The Gentile without the Mosaic Law has an "instinctive" sense of God's Moral Law, at least. In following it, the Gentile is a "law to himself," acting as the Jew ought to do but without the Mosaic Law ordering his actions.

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Here, Paul indicates that the Gentile has the "Law of God written on his heart" in the form of his conscience - just like any Jew - and is accused by it, or defended from accusation (of a moral sort) by it on the Day of Judgment. The Jew, then, isn't the only one obeying a God-given Law; any Gentile can boast of the same in his possession of, and obedience to, his conscience.

Throughout chapter 2 of Paul's letter to the Romans, Paul is working to diminish the sense of superiority that the Jew might have over the Gentile, going after the Jew's sense of superiority, especially insofar as it arises from their observance of the Mosaic Law.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?


Paul's words here would have been very offensive to the average Jew of his time. Paul states that the Gentile who keeps the "Moral Law of God written on his heart," who obeys his God-given conscience - is better than the hypocritical Jew (vs. 17-24).

Having dissolved the sense of superiority of the Jewish believer over the Gentile one, Paul continues, pointing out that neither Gentile nor Jew are chosen of God as His (i.e. an "inward" Jew) on the basis of outward conformity to the Mosaic Law, exemplified in circumcision:

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


It is only by the Spirit of God, not by the letter of the Law of God, that one is "circumcised in heart" and so become a "Jew" which is to say a member of God's spiritual "Chosen People," the Body of Christ, the Church.

So, then, Romans 2:13 is NOT indicating that the Christian person is justified before God by keeping the OT Jewish Law of Moses. Not only does such a reading of the verse not correspond to what Paul is doing in the chapter but this sort of a prescriptive reading of Romans 2:13 also directly contradicts other things Paul wrote concerning a person's salvation and justification before God. See: Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, 2 Timothy 1:9, Galatians 3:24-25, Galatians 5:4, 6, etc..
 
Romans 3:31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Romans 3:26-31
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


Here Paul rules out antinomianism as a valid response to his explanation of justification through faith. Being justified by faith doesn't mean one can throw off all moral constraints and live just as one pleases. Instead, the Law of God, which is aimed fundamentally at righteousness, is established in the life of the Christian person. How? Paul went on to explain:

Romans 4:2-5
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


By trusting in Christ and the promises and power of God, righteousness is credited to an ungodly person by God. By this means, the righteousness embodied by God's Law is established, not by law-keeping, but by faith. So, then, Romans 3:31 is not urging legalism - law-keeping - but exactly the opposite!
 
1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

But the Christian keeps the Moral Law of God (not the now-defunct Mosaic Law given solely to Israel) as a consequence of knowing God and being indwelt by His Spirit. See: John 15:4-5, Titus 3:3-5, Romans 5:6-10, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:13, Ephesians 3:16; 6:10, Romans 8:13, 2 Corinthians 3:18, etc. It isn't by means of keeping God's Moral Law that a person is related to God. Don't confuse effect for cause!
 
Immediate context is so important to properly understanding any particular passage or verse. As I hope I've shown, the verses you've cited that I looked at above, don't support a doctrine that requires the New Covenant Christian to keep the Mosaic Law of the OT Israelites. Quite the opposite, in fact. I don't have the time to go through all of the prooftexts you've offered (or, really, the interest) and continue to demonstrate that this is so.
 
Back
Top