"The Many Errors of Calvinism" -

[zeke]

Ok, well this was started on your request and I think you're out of your league. I presented the argument and you've yet to defend or point out any errors. So far this has been a slow pitch underhand game.

But you have struck out so quickly. Is this your admission that you are to abandon your thread?

 

[Hitch]

God calls ALL ‘whosoever will’ to come to Him. The offer of salvation is and has always been to all who will hear the gospel, believe that gospel message and obey from the heart the Gospel of Christ. Peter, via faith chose to follow Christ - Chiaphas rejected the Messiah via free-will. Calvinism teaches the error that the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? God is not a Calvinist and you have yet to address that error of Calvinism. Why?

So how many of Calvin's titles have you read personally?

 

[zeke]

So how many of Calvin's titles have you read personally?

Enough to recognize the many errors taught.

 

[Hitch]

Enough to recognize the many errors taught.

Have you personally read any of Calvin's works?

 

[Hitch]

But you have struck out so quickly. Is this your admission that you are to abandon your thread?

Yawn ,dont be pathetic zeke

 

[zeke]

Yawn ,dont be pathetic zeke

Reality is what it is my friend.

 

[zeke]

Have you personally read any of Calvin's works?

Only personally.

 

[Hitch]

Ok, well this was started on your request and I think you're out of your league. I presented the argument and you've yet to defend or point out any errors. So far this has been a slow pitch underhand game.

I take it you're not surprised with the reaction to your kindness?

 

[Danus]

I take it you're not surprised with the reaction to your kindness?

not too much. I think we can still salvage the thread though. I'll look for some valid counter arguments tonight and post a few.

 

[zeke]

not too much. I think we can still salvage the thread though. I'll look for some valid counter arguments tonight and post a few.

Now you're cooking with gas.

 

[Mike]

When I summarized the verse in 2 Peter 3, I might have used the wrong words, but it wasn't done so with a bias. I didn't quote the verse for two reasons. I was, and am, posting from my phone which makes finding, copying, and pasting difficult, and I'm trying not to use one verse to pick at scripture. I wanted to present what I see when the hope Christ's sacrifice is presented in this and other books.

I certainly don't want anyone to infer that I'm for universalism! I don't see anything in His Word that suggests all will be saved. I'm not even trying to argue for free will. That might be an unwelcome approach here, but so be it. I'm simply trying to understand how such verses can be read with irresistible Grace the conclusion. I do believe no one has the capacity to believe and then repent without the Lord's Call, but I do see that the Lord wants them to, and some have chosen to reject Him.

 

[zeke]

I do believe no one has the capacity to believe and then repent without the Lord's Call, but I do see that the Lord wants them to, and some have chosen to reject Him.

Mike - would you agree that God calls men through His word and those who hear that word and believe must then choose to repent via fee-will?

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Rom 10:17 NKJV)​

 

[Hitch]

When I summarized the verse in 2 Peter 3, I might have used the wrong words, but it wasn't done so with a bias. I didn't quote the verse for two reasons. I was, and am, posting from my phone which makes finding, copying, and pasting difficult, and I'm trying not to use one verse to pick at scripture. I wanted to present what I see when the hope Christ's sacrifice is presented in this and other books.

Mike you filled in the blanks with what you thought was practical and in keeping with the original, biased toward ALL in the sense of each and every.

I certainly don't want anyone to infer that I'm for universalism!

Come on Mike no one says that you are.(Perhaps I should say that was never my intention) I should hope it was obvious that I was pointing out the the result of the way in which you worded the verse, complete with your chosen emphasis.

I don't see anything in His Word that suggests all will be saved. I'm not even trying to argue for free will. That might be an unwelcome approach here, but so be it. I'm simply trying to understand how such verses can be read with irresistible Grace the conclusion. I do believe no one has the capacity to believe and then repent without the Lord's Call, but I do see that the Lord wants them to, and some have chosen to reject Him.

I dont think this reasoning is out of line so far as we are able to see, however it must accord with revelation and Jesus said ,as has been brought up already;

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.



Again its easy to remember Jesus saying 'blessed is he who has ears that hear'. I already explained how irresistible grace is in view here, 1Pete 2.

And this other part but I do see that the Lord wants them to I think can best be answered with a question from the opposite direction.

Are there any he does not want to repent?

This question is related;

Does repentance come from God or man?

The Lord expressly came to call sinners not the righteous (in their own eyes ,is clearly implied ) And he spoke in ways for the expressed purpose of keeping some from understanding. Now this applies to the world as a whole. In the passage in question there is a very substantial difference. The world as a whole is not in view but as per 1P 1;2 but the elect. Of course God will demonstrate all patience where his elect are concerned. So ALL in the sense of the elect ,who are mentioned expressly earlier, applies where ALL in the sense of each and every does not.

 

[zeke]

Does repentance come from God or man?

Jesus said "unless YOU repent you will perish"...man must choose via free-will to repent. And what does Calvin say?

 

[Hitch]

Jesus said "unless YOU repent you will perish"...man must choose via free-will to repent. And what does Calvin say?

.man must choose via free-will to repent


Ok show me exactly where Jesus said this :yes

 

[zeke]

.man must choose via free-will to repent


Ok show me exactly where Jesus said this :yes

Done that - what part are you missing? Jesus said "unless YOU repent you will perish". Think man. You didn't answer my question - what did Calvin say and it is one more 'error of Calvinism'?

 

[Hitch]

Done that - what part are you missing? Jesus said "unless YOU repent you will perish". Think man. You didn't answer my question - what did Calvin say and it is one more 'error of Calvinism'?

Yawn no you havent Z but rather you added;


.man must choose via free-will to repent


And you cant. ho hum

But rather I'll quote the Psalmist;

3Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
4O LORD God of hosts, how long wilt thou be angry against the prayer of thy people?
5Thou feedest them with the bread of tears; and givest them tears to drink in great measure.
6Thou makest us a strife unto our neighbours: and our enemies laugh among themselves.
7Turn us again, O God of hosts, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

 

[Mike]

Mike - would you agree that God calls men through His word and those who hear that word and believe must then choose to repent via fee-will?

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Rom 10:17 NKJV)​

Yes, I agree with this. I believe apart from God moving us to have the capacity to believe and repent, we cannot do so. I don't believe He calls all people at all times. I believe that He moves them at a time of His own choosing according to His plan. I believe, faced with capacity to believe and repent, some choose & many more reject, kinda like the group of lepers who Christ healed (Luke 17). Kinda like how Christ pleaded with Jerusalem: Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" I believe He is patient with these people, wanting all of them to come to repentance, but some are now willing.

That is much more than I intended to say. In fact, I was going to simply write the first sentence and be done with it. At any given time, there are ~10 threads where this topic is debated. I don't involve myself in them, because to me, it's not worth the fight. The same people, regardless of what doctrine we believe, will inherit eternal life in the end. I didn't join in this thread to push my theology or argue against Calvinists, because I thought this would be different from all the others. I was hoping the thread would play out differently, so I could ask honest questions of them to better understand how they bridge what seems to me to be theology incompatible with the message of the Gospel.

 

[Danus]

Done that - what part are you missing? Jesus said "unless YOU repent you will perish". Think man. You didn't answer my question - what did Calvin say and it is one more 'error of Calvinism'?

No you did not. Calvin's message is so simple your missing it. Here is what you are referring to.

Luke 13

Repent or Perish

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

You only quoted "repent or Parish". this is not against what Calvin wrote. Who is Jesus speaking of? Everyone, or the chosen? We know people don't repent. this is clear, and we know some do, this is also clear.

What Jesus was pointing out is that ALL are sinners who must repent of face a fearful end. However some do and some don't. What the difference? If given the "choice" by free will, why do some do and some don't? Are the ones who do better in some way? Jesus already says that all have sin, so NO. They are not better or more capable on their own.

All man is condemned. That we know. No man has the power to come to God on his own. That we know. So no man can or will choose God, That we know. but, even if he did, why waste time evangelizing to those who can't? No man can identify who can and can't.

Man is condemned by his own self, not by God. It is only God's intervention that allows man the ability to repent in the first place. This is the message of Calvin in short, but not just Calvin.

We are privileged to evangelism, and that is part of Gods intervention.

 

[zeke]

All man is condemned. That we know. No man has the power to come to God on his own. That we know. So no man can or will choose God, That we know. but, even if he did, why waste time evangelizing to those who can't? No man can identify who can and can't.*

You are mistaken again – men do have the power to come to God – those "whosoever will†per Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and all who (via freewill) hear, believe and repent will be saved. Those who disbelieve will perish. Easy concept. Luke 13 does not support Calvinism – Luke was not a Calvinist. The choice belongs to man...

"...choose you this day who you will serve..."​