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The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

Rollo Tamasi said:
Romans 10:8-11:
"But what does it say? The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith that we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame".

This is what I was looking for from all of you but it seems that you do not think on these terms.
There is nothing in these verses that can be used to justify losing your salvation.
Click to expand...
Where are you getting out of that scripture (Romans 10:8-11 NASB) that it means the person will never stop trusting in him? That's the condition for never being put to shame. It is the person who trusts him that will never be put to shame, not the person who stops trusting him. Faith is the security of salvation. Note, I didn't say works. I said faith.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Where are you getting out of that scripture (Romans 10:8-11 NASB) that it means the person will never stop trusting in him? That's the condition for never being put to shame. It is the person who trusts him that will never be put to shame, not the person who stops trusting him. Faith is the security of salvation. Note, I didn't say works. I said faith.
Click to expand...
Where do you get the word trust?
It's not in the verses I quoted.
What does trust mean to you?
Maybe we have a different understanding of the verses I quoted, (Edited, ToS 2.4, unwelcome spiritual advice. Just because someone doesn't share your interpretation of a passage doesn't mean they have something spiritually wrong with their heart. Obadiah)
 
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Rollo Tamasi said:
Where do you get the word trust?
It's not in the verses I quoted.
Click to expand...
I got the word 'trust' from the Romans 10:8-11 passage you quoted:
Rollo Tamasi said:
Romans 10:8-11:
"But what does it say? The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith that we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame".
Click to expand...


Rollo Tamasi said:
What does trust mean to you?
Click to expand...
Trust means to place your confidence in. To believe in. Trust is what differentiates the faith of demons from the faith of believers. To believe in Christ is to have confidence that his blood washes away your sin qualifying you to be in Covenant with God and eligible for the promised inheritance. The Holy Spirit is how we know we have that promise, secured for us through our confidence in Christ.

Rollo Tamasi said:
Maybe we have a different understanding of the verses I quoted, which is a heart condition, a spiritual heart condition.
Click to expand...
I agree. It's a spiritual heart condition. A condition of trusting in God for salvation given freely to us through the forgiveness of our sins, not trusting in our works to earn salvation. It is that trusting, that believing, that lays hold of the promise, making the promise secure for us. Faith is the vault, the power, that guards the promise for us (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB). But outside of the vault of faith the promise is not secure and can, and will be eventually lost.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Romans 10:8-11:
"But what does it say? The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith that we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame".

This is what I was looking for from all of you but it seems that you do not think on these terms.
There is nothing in these verses that can be used to justify losing your salvation.
Click to expand...

Rollo,

Do you understand NT Greek and the meaning of the tenses of the verbs and verbals? If you did, this would provide the solution to these verses by noting two tenses:
  • In v. 10, 'and believe in your heart'. Here 'believe' is aorist tense, which means point action. Believing happened instantly, but there is further emphasis in
  • v. 11, 'Anyone who trusts [believes] in him will never be put to shame'. I do not know why the latest edition of the NIV uses 'trusts' as my 1978 edition uses 'believes' as it ought to, because it is the same base word as 'believe' in v. 10 EXCEPT that it is present tense and not aorist in v. 11. Being present tense, it means continuous action (it's a participle). The meaning is that 'anyone who continues to believe in him [Jesus] will not be put to shame'.
Therefore, the meaning of these 2 verses in relation to belief in Jesus is: (1) There is an instant when one believes, and (2) A person must continue to believe to be Christian and not be put to shame.

However, you have not dealt with the verses I provided from 1 Timothy 1:19-20 (NIV) which state that it is possible to shipwreck (aorist tense) one's faith where it shows that instead of continuously holding on to one's faith and a good conscience, some have rejected these and and have been delivered to Satan.

If that is not the meaning, then Paul has taught a serious contradiction between Rom 10:8-11 (NIV) and 1 Tim 1:19-20 (NIV). There is no contradiction with an understanding of the Greek grammar.

Oz
 
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Rollo Tamasi said:
Where do you get the word trust?
It's not in the verses I quoted.
What does trust mean to you?
Maybe we have a different understanding of the verses I quoted, which is a heart condition, a spiritual heart condition.
Click to expand...

If you go back to #680, you did use 'trust' in the verses you quoted with 'Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame' (Rom 10:11).
 
(post removed, A&T guidelines "Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting." Obadiah)
 
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OzSpen said:
Rollo,

Do you understand NT Greek and the meaning of the tenses of the verbs and verbals? If you did, this would provide the solution to these verses by noting two tenses:
  • In v. 10, 'and believe in your heart'. Here 'believe' is aorist tense, which means point action. Believing happened instantly, but there is further emphasis in
  • v. 11, 'Anyone who trusts [believes] in him will never be put to shame'. I do not know why the latest edition of the NIV uses 'trusts' as my 1978 edition uses 'believes' as it ought to, because it is the same base word as 'believe' in v. 10 EXCEPT that it is present tense and not aorist in v. 11. Being present tense, it means continuous action (it's a participle). The meaning is that 'anyone who continues to believe in him [Jesus] will not be put to shame'.
Therefore, the meaning of these 2 verses in relation to belief in Jesus is: (1) There is an instant when one believes, and (2) A person must continue to believe to be Christian and not be put to shame.

However, you have not dealt with the verses I provided from 1 Timothy 1:19-20 (NIV) which state that it is possible to shipwreck (aorist tense) one's faith where it shows that instead of continuously holding on to one's faith and a good conscience, some have rejected these and and have been delivered to Satan.

If that is not the meaning, then Paul has taught a serious contradiction between Rom 10:8-11 (NIV) and 1 Tim 1:19-20 (NIV). There is no contradiction with an understanding of the Greek grammar.

Oz
Click to expand...
! Timothy 1:19-20 does not say that they lost their salvation.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
! Timothy 1:19-20 does not say that they lost their salvation.
Click to expand...

So does that mean you have a presupposition of eternal security that it is not possible to lose one's salvation?

However, 1 Tim 1:19-20 (ESV) says they shipwrecked their faith which means they were handed over to Satan so that they will learn not to blaspheme. Blaspheme whom?

You have not provided any refutation of the exegesis I gave of Rom 10:10-11. (Edited, ToS 2.4, rude comments and personal attack. Obadiah)

Oz
 
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(Post deleted. ToS 2.4 rude comments and personal attack. A&T Guidelines: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." and "Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting." Obadiah)
 
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(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)
 
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(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)
 
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I've reviewed and cleaned up the last couple of days on this thread. Hopefully everyone will now follow the rules and we can continue this revived conversation. If not, perhaps this will have to be closed permanently. I'm hoping for the best.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
Where are you getting out of that scripture (Romans 10:8-11 NASB) that it means the person will never stop trusting in him? That's the condition for never being put to shame. It is the person who trusts him that will never be put to shame, not the person who stops trusting him. Faith is the security of salvation. Note, I didn't say works. I said faith.
Click to expand...

Jethro,

How will you be able to satisfy the person promoting eternal security that 'never stop trusting in him' is not works salvation?

When you say that faith is the security of salvation, how is continuing faith able to be excluded from works?

Do you support synergism or monergism in relation to salvation?

Oz
 
(Post removed. A&T Guidelines state: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)
 
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(Post removed, response to deleted post. Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
(Post removed. A&T Guidelines state: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
(Post removed. A&T Guidelines state: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)
 
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