The Trichotomy of Man (part I)

[JamesG]

.
Glorydaz

Ahuli’s idea of soul sleep needs a thread of its own. I don’t think that it is something that has any bearing upon whether man is tripartite or not.

““I'm not sure what you're claiming I've "bought into". I certainly don't see Witness Lee or Watchman Nee as the head of a cult.â€â€

You brought the word “cult†into the picture in an earlier post. Apparently, I misunderstood what you were referring to.

Andrew Murray is one of many who is in the line that believes in the tripartite man. That there are many who believe in the idea of a Tripartite man doesn’t mean that it is true. Half of the Christian community are members of the Roman Catholic Church. That denomination believes that man is dipartite. And a great many Protestants agree with them. Doesn’t mean that it is any more true than the idea of a tripartite man.

““What I see is you claiming you have spiritual understanding and those who don't agree with you are relying on their human understanding. Naturally, I disagree with your take on that.â€â€

Me too. I didn’t intend to imply that at all. I just pointed out the fact that in modern Christianity, there is a definite tendency to rely too heavily on the mind apart from the Spirit. I think that we agree on that. Christianity is divided today. We surely can’t blame the one God or the one Spirit or the one head of the Body for that division. I blame the tendency of Christians to walk by the mind rather than by the Spirit. And it is my opinion, note opinion, that limiting the human nature to a dichotomy or a trichotomy is due more to mental acuity than to Spirit.

““I have derived my understanding of Scripture by listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit.â€â€

Isn’t it interesting that so many of us seem to believe that we are guided by the Spirit even though what we believe is often quite diverse. The diversity of belief among those who claim to be guided by the same Holy Spirit has always been a conundrum for me.

““It's hardly a "new understanding" since the Bible was inspired by God and says quite plainly man has a body, soul and spirit. â€â€

The fact that the Bible says that we have these three items does not necessarily mean that we are limited to a trichotomy. It also says that we have a heart. That makes us a quad-chotomy or whatever. That is, unless we decide that the heart is a part of one of the three elements that we have already predetermined constitute man. I believe that the various elements that make up man are connected, but not in a sense that can be systematized. I continue to claim that the human being is too complex to be understood like we can understand the physical elements of a rock.

““It's supported by many verses...and they speak for themselves. This may be new to you, but it's not new at all to many believers from Paul to this present day. It's simply an area that many pastors ignore to the detriment of the assembly they shepherd. It's why we have so many in the church who are soulish...unable to recognize they are still relying on their "old man". In their attempts to "reason out" scripture they ignore the very truths tucked inside such words as "dividing of the soul and spirit...joints and marrow. There must be a dividing of the natural man from the spiritual, or we can never know what it means to deny "self".â€â€

Now it sounds as if it is “you claiming you have spiritual understanding and those who don't agree with you are relying on their human understandingâ€. I do not deny that the three elements included as the emphasis in the tripartite man concept actually exist in man. My point is that man is more complex than the limited tripartite man approach that attempts to fit other parts such as mind and heart into one of the three main elements of the tripartite man idea.

I still believe that 1Thessalonians 5:23 is a reference to the ekklesia as a corporate group rather than to just the individuals that are a part of the ekklesia, for the reasons that I gave previously. Protestants tend to have an individualistic view of the Bible. I just happen to disagree with that approach. I believe in a corporate approach to the Bible, a Bible that sometimes emphasizes certain matters relating to certain individuals.

I have to say that, in my opinion, when we try to put limitations on Biblical concepts and on the nature of God and man, it is a sure sign of walking according to the systematizing nature of the human mind alone. The description of the Tabernacle is very systematized, but from God’s point of view. And it was systematically presented because it is intended to be an earthly pattern that shows a heavenly reality. And Romans appears to systematize the Gospel. But when you read it carefully, you will see that what seems to a treatise by a theologian, is actually a description of aspects of life in Christ, something that can’t be systematized. It can only be lived. Paul described other aspects in his other writings. Paul presented these aspects in a logical format as according to his education, but not so systematic in the sense that we normally use the word.

““The natural man lives without the renewed spirit and the renewed mind...he leans on his own understanding. The spiritual man has the mind of Christ and subjects his will and thinking to the Holy Spirit that indwells him. The Word is the divider...the discerner of the natural from the spiritual. The Word is not only the divider but the transformer...as our mind is renewed we discern the old man's way of going and are conformed to the image of God.â€â€

I do not equate the Bible with the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ in this New Testament Age. The Bible is merely a collection of writings that can only be interpreted on their own. The words of the Bible only have real meaning to those who understand them through the same Spirit through whom they came. From this perspective, I agree with what you said.

The “new man†is not limited to individual believers. We are to put it on. That implies that it is something that is not ordinarily a part of us as individuals or of humanity as a whole. My understanding of the one new man is that it is a reference to the new creation in Jesus Christ or humanity in Christ. The old man is humanity in Adam. The humanity that is in Adam is something that we are to put off. That implies that it is something that is a part of us as individuals and humanity as a whole. But the emphasis on the new humanity and on humanity in Adam as a corporate emphasis.

““Man is very complex...it's hardly "new age" to see that man is created in God's image and we are His temple. We have the outer court (body), inner court (soul) and the holy of holies (spirit)...with the Spirit of God dwelling in the whole of man when we're redeemed. â€â€

Well, at least we agree that man is very complex. And I think that I see a couple of things that maybe is a clue as to why what we believe about humanity is different.

I am a heretic, at least according to the witch hunters, I mean cult hunters. I do NOT believe that God is a Trinity. Let me explain.

I believe that God is a kind of being in the same sense that humanity is a kind of being. The kind of being that is God created the kind of being that is humanity in its own image. Humanity is not, nor was it ever intended to be, composed of merely three persons. That is one thing that is a clue to me that God is not merely a Trinity.

The “seven Spirits of God†spoken of in Revelation is understood in every way except literally. I believe that the seven Spirits of God are just as literal as are the seven ekklesia with which they are associated. If there is a Spirit of God associated with every ekklesia, then it is safe to assume that God is not a Trinity. Rather, God includes a myriad of persons. As far as what the Trinitarians say about the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the person of the Pure or Holy Spirit, I fully concur. Where we differ is that they limit God to a Trinity, and the Pure or Holy Spirit as being the only Spirit of God.

So far as I know, I am alone in my belief that God is a multi-personed God. But you can see why I can NOT agree that the Trinitarian idea of God is evidence that the human person is tripartite.

I definitely believe that the tabernacle portrays a reality that is in heaven. Just as both Exodus and Hebrews claim. And it is apparent that it is in some way connected to the New Jerusalem and with the expression that is the ekklesia. But I certainly do not see any correlation between the Tabernacle and a supposed idea of the tripartite man, just because the tabernacle initially happens to be divided into three parts. Today, there are only two parts since the veil in the temple has been torn by the death of Christ. So again you can see why this is another matter that I can NOT agree is evidence that the human person is tripartite or dipartite.

We agree that man is complex. What we disagree about is whether or not God and man is too complex to fit into any man made concept such as the Trinity or the tripartite man. Neither are systematically taught in the Bible.

By the way, Please go to the “How are we made right with God†thread and answer the question that I left there. I thought we were in agreement about the matter of being Justified by the faith of Christ. But what you said on this thread implies that it is not so. Please clarify your position.

JamesG

 

[Hawkins]

From my speculation, the early fathers should be more spiritual than people today, we could be more 'scientific' thou. In accordance to the Nicene Creed, Jesus decended to Hades/sheol.

And according to Peter, His soul/spirit was kept awaken there in Hades and had preached to the lost spirits/souls there.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NASB)

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

After physical death, our body will decay, our spirit will return to God, and our soul (interchangably our spirit) will decend to hell/Hades/sheol. Usually those wicked are awaken, and Christians will fall asleep in Christ, as God ever swore the oath that 'They shall never enter my rest'.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Hebrews 4:3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' "

And in Isaiah's prophecy,

[61:1]to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
[42:7]to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

It describes how Jesus Christ defeated death such that not all of us will have to sit in the darkness of Hades(gloomy dungeons as described by Peter) to wait for the final judgment to come. Christians will fall asleep in Christ till the resurrection comes.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

 

[elijah23]

Like to get some thoughts on this......

We are humans created by God in his own image. (Genesis 1:26-27).

What type of being is God? A TRINITY — the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. Three persons in one — this is the trichotomy of God. So if we were made in the image of God, and God is a trinity, what then is the trichotomy of man?

I’ve heard it explained: We are spirits, that have a soul, that live in a body. Those are the three parts of man: Spirit, Soul and Body.

Thoughts and definitions of each from all, welcome.

I retitled my post. I intend to make a study of this for those who would like to participate.

I think the Trinity is misunderstood. I think of the Trinity as one Lord doing three things. He is God—the Father. He is Jesus—the Son. He communicates directly with us and when he does, he is known as the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hawkins]

I think the Trinity is misunderstood. I think of the Trinity as one Lord doing three things. He is God—the Father. He is Jesus—the Son. He communicates directly with us and when he does, he is known as the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ahuli]

How can these verses not be speaking of the soul dying ? Before the soul can be redeemed from death, it first has to die, correct ?

I believe you defeat your own stance when you speak of the death of Jesus. His soul went to the grave with him when he died. And now you say that our soul does not have to go to the grave when we die ?

Of course you can provide scripture for this theory,correct ? And please, don't humour us with -- thus sayeth glorydaz.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never die . . .†(John 10:28a)
Unfortunately for many, they think this means "I gave them eternal life".

51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57.

Praise your name, Lord Jesus.[/quote]


Hi

What you stated here is true. But what we must remember, is that eternal life is a promise from/of God and is still future. The last enemy has not been destroyed yet, and that last enemy that shall be destroyed, is death.

Hence when we die, our body and soul still dies, and goes to the grave awaiting its resurrection from the dead.

There is no such thing as an out of body experience. The soul dies when the body dies . The spirit of man that was given to man , goes back to the giver - God.

The theory that when one dies, one does not really die, is straight from the deceiver , the devil, the liar. He used this same comment in the garden when talking to the woman.

Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life, and that no man comes unto the Father except through me. When one dies , they must wait for their resurrection, first ![/quote]
That's a great understanding of what the scriptures teach, versus many denominationals. I've never been able to distinguish the body from the soul. They are one and the same. We get into trouble when we enter into "possibilities". It's possible this ... and its possible that. Rather, we should take the word for what it says, and we should be disinclined to place our corrupted meanings on it. I understand that the word is written for all to understand and not for some to come along and say "no, you are not understanding this at all, it's the way I see it, and not the way you see it!" That's why God sent the Holy Spirit, to teach and guide us, and that this process takes a lifetime, not one semester in college.

Thank you for your wisdom. God bless you.

 

[elijah23]

I think the Trinity is misunderstood. I think of the Trinity as one Lord doing three things. He is God—the Father. He is Jesus—the Son. He communicates directly with us and when he does, he is known as the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

Te Lord is the Lord. He can be the Father up in heaven, while at the same time walk the earth in the body of Jesus. What can’t the Lord do? He can do anything.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deut 6:4 RSV.

 

[Mysteryman]

I think the Trinity is misunderstood. I think of the Trinity as one Lord doing three things. He is God—the Father. He is Jesus—the Son. He communicates directly with us and when he does, he is known as the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

Te Lord is the Lord. He can be the Father up in heaven, while at the same time walk the earth in the body of Jesus. What can’t the Lord do? He can do anything.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deut 6:4 RSV.

Hi

Can God make a stone too big for him to pick up ?

 

[Mysteryman]

I think the Trinity is misunderstood. I think of the Trinity as one Lord doing three things. He is God—the Father. He is Jesus—the Son. He communicates directly with us and when he does, he is known as the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

Te Lord is the Lord. He can be the Father up in heaven, while at the same time walk the earth in the body of Jesus. What can’t the Lord do? He can do anything.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deut 6:4 RSV.

Hi

Can God lie ? How do you explain I Kings 8:27

 

[elijah23]

Hi

Can God lie ? How do you explain I Kings 8:27

Explain this:

When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it. Jonah 3:10 RSV

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi

Can God lie ? How do you explain I Kings 8:27

Explain this:

When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it. Jonah 3:10 RSV

Okay :bicker

 

[glorydaz]

Every one of those verses speak of delivering the soul from death. Not one speaks of the soul dying...rather being redeemed from the power of death. The body goes to the grave until the day of resurrection when our Lord returns. The soul that is converted and born again enters into eternal life. The soul that is not written in the Lamb's book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. The grave could not hold Jesus' body, and it could not hold His soul or spirit, either. The grave will hold our body until we're given an incorruptible one. So, I'm sorry, but the verses you present do not say our soul dies or stays in the grave. BTW...of course no one can keep alive his own soul...we must be born of the Spirit.

Hi

How can these verses not be speaking of the soul dying ? Before the soul can be redeemed from death, it first has to die, correct ?

I believe you defeat your own stance when you speak of the death of Jesus. His soul went to the grave with him when he died. And now you say that our soul does not have to go to the grave when we die ?

Of course you can provide scripture for this theory,correct ? And please, don't humour us with -- thus sayeth glorydaz.

I'm not sure why you make a comment like..."And please, don't humour us with thus sayeth glorydaz.." I always try to give scripture to support whatever I "say". It would be nice if your could simply address them. :yes

No, I don't believe the soul must die before it can be redeemed, and there isn't any scripture to support the death of Jesus' soul...at any time. There is scripture to support He went and preached to the souls in Hades. Those were the OT believers who were being held there until Christ's resurrection. They "looked forward" to that day.

Believers are regenerated with divine life when we are born of God...hope is a function of man's soul.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

We are being transformed into His image...

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven...where we await the Lord's return and the resurrection of our "vile body" where it will be "changed" into a spiritual one. We...the person that we are..waits for the body to be changed. That "we" does not die with the body.

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz:"No, I don't believe the soul must die before it can be redeemed, and there isn't any scripture to support the death of Jesus' soul...at any time. There is scripture to support He went and preached to the souls in Hades. Those were the OT believers who were being held there until Christ's resurrection. They "looked forward" to that day. "


Hi

Thus saith glorydaz !

The very thing I asked you not to do, geesh ! :mad

 

[glorydaz]

What I see is you claiming you have spiritual understanding and those who don't agree with you are relying on their human understanding.

Is that not what you do? Or are you no longer a work in progress? Can you not state your point without making the other person feel like he has wasted his time learning? Do you not resort to clobbering someone to death with words, YOUR words, YOUR understanding, YOUR wisdom? Does the Holy Spirit not take us the steps we need to learn and know what is true?

I'm most definately a "work in progress". I'm sorry you think my words are "clobbering someone to death". That certainly isn't my intent. I'll try and be more sensitive in how I state my case.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz: "Our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven...where we await the Lord's return and the resurrection of our "vile body" where it will be "changed" into a spiritual one. We...the person that we are..waits for the body to be changed. That "we" does not die with the body. "


Hi

Thus saith glorydaz !

The very thing I asked you not to do, geesh ! :mad

 

[glorydaz]

Hi

What you stated here is true. But what we must remember, is that eternal life is a promise from/of God and is still future. The last enemy has not been destroyed yet, and that last enemy that shall be destroyed, is death.

Hence when we die, our body and soul still dies, and goes to the grave awaiting its resurrection from the dead.

There is no such thing as an out of body experience. The soul dies when the body dies . The spirit of man that was given to man , goes back to the giver - God.

The theory that when one dies, one does not really die, is straight from the deceiver , the devil, the liar. He used this same comment in the garden when talking to the woman.

Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life, and that no man comes unto the Father except through me. When one dies , they must wait for their resurrection, first !

The question is whether the soul dies when the body does. You think it does. If the soul is who we are, the essence of man, then it cannot die. It must live to be judged when the Lord returns. The Word tells us...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We leave our body and are present with the Lord. When we die...our body goes back to the earth, who we are (self) waits ...it doesn't die.

It isn't an "out of body experience" to put off this earthy tent at death. When we're born of God, some part of man is "seated with Christ in heavenly places". That's before our body dies. We can come before the throne of God when we pray...we speak to Him throughout the day. Do we do that with our mind and our understanding? The natural man does not have that access to God...that comes only to the regenerate man.

The last enemy, death, is destroyed when our body is raised incorruptible. Which is why we wait for our body to be resurrected. That is only speaking of our physical body. You like to shackle the soul to the body, but there is no scriptural support for it. It's the soul that sins and is converted...it's the soul that must be alive to stand before the throne.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi

What you stated here is true. But what we must remember, is that eternal life is a promise from/of God and is still future. The last enemy has not been destroyed yet, and that last enemy that shall be destroyed, is death.

Hence when we die, our body and soul still dies, and goes to the grave awaiting its resurrection from the dead.

There is no such thing as an out of body experience. The soul dies when the body dies . The spirit of man that was given to man , goes back to the giver - God.

The theory that when one dies, one does not really die, is straight from the deceiver , the devil, the liar. He used this same comment in the garden when talking to the woman.

Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life, and that no man comes unto the Father except through me. When one dies , they must wait for their resurrection, first !

The question is whether the soul dies when the body does. You think it does. If the soul is who we are, the essence of man, then it cannot die. It must live to be judged when the Lord returns. The Word tells us...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We leave our body and are present with the Lord. When we die...our body goes back to the earth, who we are (self) waits ...it doesn't die.

It isn't an "out of body experience" to put off this earthy tent at death. When we're born of God, some part of man is "seated with Christ in heavenly places". That's before our body dies. We can come before the throne of God when we pray...we speak to Him throughout the day. Do we do that with our mind and our understanding? The natural man does not have that access to God...that comes only to the regenerate man.

The last enemy, death, is destroyed when our body is raised incorruptible. Which is why we wait for our body to be resurrected. That is only speaking of our physical body. You like to shackle the soul to the body, but there is no scriptural support for it. It's the soul that sins and is converted...it's the soul that must be alive to stand before the throne.

Hi glorydaz

I am going to be honest with you here, as well, I am going to ask you two questions.

Everything I just read , is nothing other than private interpretation. Another way of looking at your comments is this > "Thus saith glorydaz" !

Now my questions --- Do you not believe that God is going to resurrect the dead christians ? Do you not believe that God is going to resurrect all the souls of non-christians ? Read Rev. 20:12 & 13 and Acts 2:27 and I Thess. 4:16

 

[glorydaz]

.You brought the word “cult†into the picture in an earlier post. Apparently, I misunderstood what you were referring to.

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer on that.

Me too. I didn’t intend to imply that at all. I just pointed out the fact that in modern Christianity, there is a definite tendency to rely too heavily on the mind apart from the Spirit. I think that we agree on that. Christianity is divided today. We surely can’t blame the one God or the one Spirit or the one head of the Body for that division. I blame the tendency of Christians to walk by the mind rather than by the Spirit. And it is my opinion, note opinion, that limiting the human nature to a dichotomy or a trichotomy is due more to mental acuity than to Spirit.

I think we're all just trying to piece it together from the verses that are available to us. I agree, we too often form our opinions with our human reasoning...probably mixed in with what the Spirit teaches us about a particular verse. We're to use our minds, but keep them stayed upon God...not always that easy to do. lol

Isn’t it interesting that so many of us seem to believe that we are guided by the Spirit even though what we believe is often quite diverse. The diversity of belief among those who claim to be guided by the same Holy Spirit has always been a conundrum for me.

I was just trying to reassure you that I wasn't following any man-made doctrine. I always TRY to look only to Him.

The fact that the Bible says that we have these three items does not necessarily mean that we are limited to a trichotomy. It also says that we have a heart. That makes us a quad-chotomy or whatever. That is, unless we decide that the heart is a part of one of the three elements that we have already predetermined constitute man. I believe that the various elements that make up man are connected, but not in a sense that can be systematized. I continue to claim that the human being is too complex to be understood like we can understand the physical elements of a rock.

The heart of man is very interesting...it almost deserves a thread of it's own. From what I can glean from the Word, the heart of man is connected to both the soul and the spirit. It involves our conscience and therefore the spirit, but it also involves our mind which is the soul.

I see the natural man with a spirit dead to the things of God...except for his conscience. It's his one connection to anything spiritual. The believer, on the other hand, has a heart to follow God so his spirit and soul are in the process of being united. This transforming, conforming work of the Holy Spirit in our regenerated spirit puts the soul under the control of the new spiritual man. Honestly, I see a lot of "threes" in man's soul and spirit, but, you're correct, it's very complex. I just find it a very interesting topic, and always enjoy reading the verses that relate to the make-up of man.

I am a heretic, at least according to the witch hunters, I mean cult hunters. I do NOT believe that God is a Trinity. Let me explain.

I believe that God is a kind of being in the same sense that humanity is a kind of being. The kind of being that is God created the kind of being that is humanity in its own image. Humanity is not, nor was it ever intended to be, composed of merely three persons. That is one thing that is a clue to me that God is not merely a Trinity.

The “seven Spirits of God†spoken of in Revelation is understood in every way except literally. I believe that the seven Spirits of God are just as literal as are the seven ekklesia with which they are associated. If there is a Spirit of God associated with every ekklesia, then it is safe to assume that God is not a Trinity. Rather, God includes a myriad of persons. As far as what the Trinitarians say about the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the person of the Pure or Holy Spirit, I fully concur. Where we differ is that they limit God to a Trinity, and the Pure or Holy Spirit as being the only Spirit of God.

I don't consider you a heretic at all. I don't agree with God being three persons, either, but I do see Him as being made up of three parts...just as we are. God is a spirit. His "work" is done by His "body", His soul is who God is...His essence, and He has a Spirit. Of course, "all of God" is so much more than "all of man", but I see we were created in His image in that we have a body, soul, and spirit.

God is greater than any label man can give Him. We know from Eph. that there is One Spirit. I think you're right on the money about the seven churches...there is really only one church (one body)...the seven spirits, the sevens, if you will, have to do with the Gospel being preached on all seven Continents. These were the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. The seven lamps burning with fire shows us the ministry of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is ministering the Word of God symbolized by the lamp. He is the teacher of the Word. The Word of God is a lamp unto our feet. The light that comes off of it is a light to show us the way. The fire coming from the lamp reveals the cleansing of the Word. The lamp could not burn with out oil and this speaks of the anointing of the Holy Spirit. He is ministering this all over the world to all seven Continents.

We agree that man is complex. What we disagree about is whether or not God and man is too complex to fit into any man made concept such as the Trinity or the tripartite man. Neither are systematically taught in the Bible.

By the way, Please go to the “How are we made right with God†thread and answer the question that I left there. I thought we were in agreement about the matter of being Justified by the faith of Christ. But what you said on this thread implies that it is not so. Please clarify your position.

I'll go there now...

 

[glorydaz]

And according to Peter, His soul/spirit was kept awaken there in Hades and had preached to the lost spirits/souls there.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NASB)

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

After physical death, our body will decay, our spirit will return to God, and our soul (interchangably our spirit) will decend to hell/Hades/sheol. Usually those wicked are awaken, and Christians will fall asleep in Christ, as God ever swore the oath that 'They shall never enter my rest'.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Hebrews 4:3
Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' "

And in Isaiah's prophecy,

[61:1]to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
[42:7]to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

It describes how Jesus Christ defeated death such that not all of us will have to sit in the darkness of Hades(gloomy dungeons as described by Peter) to wait for the final judgment to come. Christians will fall asleep in Christ till the resurrection comes.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

I agree Jesus went to Hades after His death...Luke 10 isn't a parable but a picture of the afterlife, as I see it. After the Lord's resurrection, though, I believe the OT saints, believers since the cross, and the present day believers who die in the Lord go to Paradise to await the Lord's return. That's why the Lord told the thief on the cross, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise". The believers...all those who have died physically are not asleep (except for their bodies), but are waiting for the redemption of their bodies in the last day.

 

[glorydaz]

I think the Trinity is misunderstood. I think of the Trinity as one Lord doing three things. He is God—the Father. He is Jesus—the Son. He communicates directly with us and when he does, he is known as the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

That's just One God, though....doing three things.

 

[glorydaz]

That's a great understanding of what the scriptures teach, versus many denominationals. I've never been able to distinguish the body from the soul. They are one and the same. We get into trouble when we enter into "possibilities". It's possible this ... and its possible that. Rather, we should take the word for what it says, and we should be disinclined to place our corrupted meanings on it. I understand that the word is written for all to understand and not for some to come along and say "no, you are not understanding this at all, it's the way I see it, and not the way you see it!" That's why God sent the Holy Spirit, to teach and guide us, and that this process takes a lifetime, not one semester in college.

Thank you for your wisdom. God bless you.

How do you explain this verse if you see no distinction?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.