The Trichotomy of Man (part I)

[Danus]

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Danus

““The answer might be found in who the NT was written for. It was not just written for Christians, but for all. There is room in the word as a whole for all. That would include pagans of the time.â€â€

Perhaps you should begin by considering who the NT was written to, before you consider who the NT was written for.

JamesG

Ok, Written "to", written "for" ? either way. Lets hear your thoughts. I seem to be getting more riddles than thoughts. Do you think the word spirit and soul where used synonymously along with body in the NT to communicate the whole of man to many people who where taught a trichotomy view outside Christianity?

 

[Ahuli]

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Danus

““The answer might be found in who the NT was written for. It was not just written for Christians, but for all. There is room in the word as a whole for all. That would include pagans of the time.â€â€

Perhaps you should begin by considering who the NT was written to, before you consider who the NT was written for.

JamesG

Ok, Written "to", written "for" ? either way. Lets hear your thoughts. I seem to be getting more riddles than thoughts. Do you think the word spirit and soul where used synonymously along with body in the NT to communicate the whole of man to many people who where taught a trichotomy view outside Christianity?

The soul that sins it shall die! Therefore, it absolutely has to be perishable. What then do we have that perishes? The body/soul that are the same?

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

When did God give that spirit? After He made something from the dust. What was that spirit He gave?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

That spirit was/is the breath of life.

For as the body without the spirit is dead ... James 2:26

The spirit/breath returns to God who gave it. But, many ascribe to it properties it does not have. These properties are adapted/adopted from paganism all the way back to Babylon, which teaches the immortality of the soul/spirit.

"All religions affirm that there is an aspect of the human person that lives on after the physical life has ended" (World Scripture: A Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts, Andrew Wilson, editor, 1995, p. 225)

How can this be? How can we so boldly deviate from the WORD, and add and take away from it? Are you surprised to learn that the words immortal and soul to not appear together in scripture?

"Theologians frankly admit that the expression 'immortal soul' is not in the Bible but confidently state that Scripture assumes the immortality of every soul" (Edward Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, 1994, p. 22, emphasis added throughout).

The New Bible Dictionary shows the nonbiblical nature of the immortal-soul doctrine: "The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul" (1996, p. 1010, "Resurrection").

A separate soul and body was popular in old Greece and taught by Plato, etc.: "The immortality of the soul was a principal doctrine of the Greek philosopher, Plato ...In Plato's thinking, the soul ...was self-moving and indivisible ...It existed before the body which it inhabited, and which it would survive" (Fudge, p. 32). This is gruesome.

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, "Death").

The early Church did also not not believe this: "The doctrine is increasingly regarded as a post-apostolic innovation, not only unnecessary but positively harmful to proper biblical interpretation and understanding" (Fudge, p. 24).

Greek philosophers have deeply influenced Christianity. (This should not be accepted). History and religious studies professor Jeffrey Russell states, "The unbiblical idea of immortality did not die but even flourished, because theologians ...admired Greek philosophy [and] found support there for the notion of the immortal soul" (A History of Heaven, 1997, p. 79).

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, in its article on death, states that "the 'departure' of the nephesh [soul] must be viewed as a figure of speech, for it does not continue to exist independently of the body, but dies with it...No biblical text authorizes the statement that the 'soul' is separated from the body at the moment of death" (1962, Vol. 1, p. 802, "Death").

"The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1941, Vol. 6, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).

It is not difficult to look up sources on the internet. There is no shame in strongly believing something, but I do not fancy being clobbered over the head with words.

Excuse me for making this so long, it is not my usual style.

 

[Danus]

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

When did God give that spirit? After He made something from the dust. What was that spirit He gave?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

That spirit was/is the breath of life.

For as the body without the spirit is dead ... James 2:26

The spirit/breath returns to God who gave it. But, many ascribe to it properties it does not have. These properties are adapted/adopted from paganism all the way back to Babylon, which teaches the immortality of the soul/spirit.

"All religions affirm that there is an aspect of the human person that lives on after the physical life has ended" (World Scripture: A Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts, Andrew Wilson, editor, 1995, p. 225)

How can this be? How can we so boldly deviate from the WORD, and add and take away from it? Are you surprised to learn that the words immortal and soul to not appear together in scripture?

"Theologians frankly admit that the expression 'immortal soul' is not in the Bible but confidently state that Scripture assumes the immortality of every soul" (Edward Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, 1994, p. 22, emphasis added throughout).

The New Bible Dictionary shows the nonbiblical nature of the immortal-soul doctrine: "The Greeks thought of the body as a hindrance to true life and they looked for the time when the soul would be free from its shackles. They conceived of life after death in terms of the immortality of the soul" (1996, p. 1010, "Resurrection").

A separate soul and body was popular in old Greece and taught by Plato, etc.: "The immortality of the soul was a principal doctrine of the Greek philosopher, Plato ...In Plato's thinking, the soul ...was self-moving and indivisible ...It existed before the body which it inhabited, and which it would survive" (Fudge, p. 32). This is gruesome.

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, "Death").

The early Church did also not not believe this: "The doctrine is increasingly regarded as a post-apostolic innovation, not only unnecessary but positively harmful to proper biblical interpretation and understanding" (Fudge, p. 24).

Greek philosophers have deeply influenced Christianity. (This should not be accepted). History and religious studies professor Jeffrey Russell states, "The unbiblical idea of immortality did not die but even flourished, because theologians ...admired Greek philosophy [and] found support there for the notion of the immortal soul" (A History of Heaven, 1997, p. 79).

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, in its article on death, states that "the 'departure' of the nephesh [soul] must be viewed as a figure of speech, for it does not continue to exist independently of the body, but dies with it...No biblical text authorizes the statement that the 'soul' is separated from the body at the moment of death" (1962, Vol. 1, p. 802, "Death").

"The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1941, Vol. 6, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).

It is not difficult to look up sources on the internet. There is no shame in strongly believing something, but I do not fancy being clobbered over the head with words.

Excuse me for making this so long, it is not my usual style.

Thanks Ahuli.

I'm not clobbering you over the head. I want to hear what your thoughts are. But, I'm also trying to channel this thread in a particular direction so that I can hold a discussion on the Trichotomy of man.

There have been views supporting it and there are views against it. I understand both, but the views against it are so much so that they are taking on a life of there own apart from what I'm trying to study. At that point they trail off into other areas. Almost as if the views against it are also attempting to suppress the thought in it's entirety. I'm not asking that you believe or accept the trichotomy of man.

So, you bring up a few good points about this philosophical view and how it's found in other thoughts outside Christianity. Let's go there for a bit.

Absent from anything I'm trying to say about the trichotomy view is the immortality of man's soul. However, I can see why you might assume my view, or that I might think that. So, put a pin in that thought and maybe we can have it later.

I agree that Greek Philosophy has influenced Christianity and it's pretty clear that that influence is seen in this trichotomy view. However, Christianity surely had quite an influence on the Greeks as well. Further, the bible seems to make distinctions, or at least it mentions the Soul, the Spirit and the body in many verses found in the NT. Why do you think that is?

As for the trichotomy view.....I don't think it's well defined at all as doctrine. I think it's often used as a conceptual illustration, but do you know of any group of Christians that use it more as solid doctrine?

So, two questions: Why do you think the bible (in particular the NT) uses the words Soul, Spirit and Body, often together? and Do you know of any groups of Christians that use this view as solid doctrine vs just an illustration, or both?

 

[JamesG]

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Danus

The post of Ahuli deserves a thread of its own if there isn’t one already. The matter of soul sleep can generate quite a discussion, especially by those who think that what Ahuli espouses is cultic.

Humanity has a tendency to try to pigeon hole everything, make things systematic so that it is easier to understand. For some things this is all well and good. But to do this with the Bible, doesn’t work so well. The systematic is according to our own human mental acuity. And God presented reality in such a way that it is not always clear, systematically or otherwise, to the human mind alone. This is something that you must consider before you make a statement like the Bible was written for everyone. There are some things in the Bible that everyone can understand, but not everything. Mark Twain, whether or not an actual Atheist is unclear, said this about the Bible, “Its not what I don’t understand that bothers me, its what I do understand.â€

There is the tendency among well meaning Christians to create realities that in fact don’t exist. They created the three “orthodox†versions of Trinitarianism, and various non-orthodox versions, as well as more than one non or anti Trinitarian version. This tendency has created many different ideas of the Gospel and how we are saved. This tendency has created what is currently the denominational nature of Christianity. This tendency has also created the many understandings of what constitutes a human and humanity. God and the humanity created in the image of God are both too complex to categorize in a systematic way. Modern science has tried to understand the human being in this way without much success. And what they do understand they mostly misunderstand, at least from the perspective of the Bible. And not many live more than their allotted seventy years. The reason is that humanity includes aspects that are not like the physical elements that can be observed and experimented on. And those who interpret the Bible and created non-Biblical realities in the process are guilty of using the Bible as if it were something that is just physical. They can observe, but they have no way to experiment. They have to jump directly from observation to theory. And that is what becomes an interpretation, often an authoritative interpretation.

In regards to Christian ideas as to the constitution of humanity, there are two main concepts, dichotomy and Trichotomy. As is always the case, each concept has verses to back up the concept, at least according the adherents of each respectively.

Dichotomy says that a person is made up of soul and body, and that is all. The human spirit is just the higher part of the human mind that in turn is a part of the human soul or human soul and body. In this schema, the other things that are mentioned, such as the heart or the flesh, are put into either the soul or the body or both.

Trichotomy says that a person is made up of spirit and soul and body, and that is all. Again, the other things that are mentioned are put into one or more of the three major elements.

In a prior post, I brought up this verse, “And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.†(Mark 12:30) And my question was, “How many parts of man does this verse say that we have?†The first thing that we see in this verse is that the human spirit isn’t even mentioned. Yet the fruit of the Spirit is love. And a lot of other parts are mentioned. The point is that the human person is much too complex than to be categorized by either a Dichotomy or a Trichotomy.

I also mentioned that the most intriguing understanding of the Trichotomy concept that I had seen was by Witness Lee, the founder of what today is referred to as “the Lord’s Recoveryâ€. Look up Witness Lee on the three parts of man and you should get some of the most interesting information on the matter. This is a denomination of Christianity. Glorydaz seems to have bought into the idea that Witness Lee was a heretic head of a cult.

Cult status is determined mainly by how one thinks of the Trinity. And the word “cult†has the practical meaning of, “if you don’t agree with me, you are a heretic, not a Christian, and those who agree with you constitute a cult that is not Christian.†The old “everyone is wrong but me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee†gambit. I am not in favor of the modern witch hunters. They are a throw back to the worst aspects of the Inquisition. And I believe sufficiently different from the “orthodox†denominations in their many flavors that I would be considered a heretic by more than one of the witch hunters. These pharisaical types think that they do God a service by their witch hunts. When in fact the only ones being served are themselves and those who happen to agree with them. And the only growth that these people allow is growth into their very mental ideas of “the Christian Faithâ€. And now the Protestant witch hunters like to use “the Historic Christian Faithâ€, as if they are Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox.

An open minded person should quickly be able to see through such garbage, and I know some who have become Atheists because of this kind of thing. And I know some who, rather than give up on Jesus Christ altogether, became Catholics. A rather logical choice under the circumstances. The strongest and the most knowledgeable Catholics that I know are converts from Protestantism, whether or not they were influenced by witch hunters.

The two main verses used by the advocates of Trichotomy are 1Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12.

The only thing that is clear about Hebrews 4:12 is that we have a spirit and a soul that is often used as if they had the same function or the human spirit is not used at all. And Paul wishes to be clear that they are different in function. It is in this sense that they need to be divided. Obviously, they are still part of the one individual human unit and are still to function together as they were originally intended. Just not as if they are the same thing.

The idea that we have a human spirit is clear from Zechariah 12:1 and Romans 1:9. And though the Trichotomists never understand this verse in this way, Ephesians 4:23 shows that there is a connection between the human spirit and the human mind. There are at least two scripture portions (Romans 8:1-17; Galatians 5:16-25) wherein one can not tell whether the human spirit or the Spirit of God is being referred to. But if one reads them with the help of the Spirit, one will eventually be able to see that the reference is to a Divine Spirit/human spirit connection that is also connected to the human mind. Apart from these connections, how to walk according to the Spirit is unintelligible, and that is not what Paul wished to convey.

Continued in the next post.

JamesG

 

[JamesG]

.
Danus

Part 2

1Thessalonians 5:23 is used by Trichotomists to prove that individual humans are a Trichotomy. But nothing could be further from the truth. They do not take into consideration the context of this verse. The context is the ekklesia of the Thessalonians. It is a corporate context. Paul is not referring to individuals here. The Greek pronouns used are in the plural. Paul is not referring to each individually. He is referring to all together as a unit. He is referring to the ekklesia as a whole. Paul is referring to the spirit and soul and body of the ekklesia.

This is unintelligible to the human mind alone, that a group of people could have a spirit and soul and body. Yet this is true even in reference to human organizations. Many Churches are organizations that are human imitations of the Spiritual entitiy that is the ekklesia. In the case of human organizations, the human leader is the main life of the organization and the organization is the expression of the human leader. And the lives of all in the organization constitutes the whole life of the organization. The organization includes a head and a body. And there is a soul connection between the leader and the rest of the organization. This is because the organization is a whole that is made up of individuals.

In the case of the ekklesia, its nature is revealed in many different ways in the Bible. It is a Body, a Kingdom, a Temple, etc. These ways of revealing its nature is not organizational so much as it is organic. The life of the ekklesia is all important. Jesus is the Head, the King, the High Priest. And the ekklesia is the expression of something on the earth that has to do with God. And we who are a part of the ekklesia are individuals connected to this ekklesia and to one another through the Spirit of God. To the human mind alone, this matter is unintelligible. To the human mind alone the ekklesia is nothing more than a simple organization. But to the one who walks according to the Spirit, this matter becomes obvious and living in a way that is more than a simple organization.

The true meaning of 1Thessalonians 5:23 is changed by Trichotomists to conform to what is intelligible to the human mind alone. If the Bible is nothing more than a collection of human writings, then to conform what it says to what is intelligible to the human mind alone is the logical thing to do. It is how we understand all human writings. But if the Bible has its source in Divinity, as the writings themselves constantly affirm, then perhaps what is being written about is not fully intelligible to the human mind alone. There is another level to be considered. It is intelligible through that which the Bible came in the first place…the Spirit of God.

In our human mind alone, we can read all kinds of things into the Bible and into anything else we have a mind to. There are Christians who are determined that the basic thrust of the movie Avatar is to propagate New Age concepts in opposition to the reality portrayed by the Bible or their personal understanding of what the Bible says. Indeed, the reference is that it is Antichrist and against Christianity itself, though they do not clearly say that the Christianity referred to is their own brand of Christianity. James Cameron, the one who wrote and directed the movie, says that it means something entirely different. This is an example of how easy it is to read anything into anything.

If you wish something humanly intelligible, I suggest that you go to the human philosophers. They consider reality according to how it can be understood by the human mind alone. They will be of more help to you than what the Bible will say to you. Or you could check out Ravi Zacharias and William Lane Craig on Utube. They are Christian philosophers. If on the other hand you wish to understand the true reality, then I suggest that you walk according to the Divine Spirit/human spirit connection that is connected to your human mind and get the truth out of the Bible through the source that gave us the Bible…the Spirit of God. And don’t try to interpret what you are given, just believe what God gives you. When we make the mistake of interpreting what we are given, that is when we begin to create a new understanding of reality, a new Christian denomination, that is if we have sufficient charisma to draw followers unto ourselves.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

JamesG

 

[Danus]

Thank you JamesG.

I appreciate your time and effort. You have given me plenty to look up. I sensed some concern on your part for my understanding of the scripture, or directions that I might take it and I do appreciate that. I also understand fully what you mean in talking about how we attempt to understand and interpret scripture.

I had never even heard of the Trichotomy of man until a few weeks ago. I was having a discussion with a friend about the condition of man before the fall. We where just playing around with the idea of grasping (understanding) what it might be like to have been Adam before the fall and trying to conceptualize it in the most basic to complex way possible.

He brought up much of what you are stating about how we tend to try and do this in regards to that which we don't fully understand. Then he proceeded to tell me about the trichotomy view. He could have just as well brought up anything else, but this is what we focused on since it was foreign to me.

He knew more about this than I because of where he grew up in his Christianity. You know, the views expressed through his community and church as a child. He said this view was deeply ingrained in some and used loosely by others as a metaphor. That turned the whole conversation into about exactly what you presented to me.

I like to refer to myself as a reformed agnostic. I grew up with half of my extended family Catholic and half Protestant. The protestant side was further divided Methodist and Southern Baptist. I grew up Methodist, but often visited my cousins churches Catholic and Baptist. I got ear fulls from all. As a teen I decided to reject it all and just start over with a clean slate on my beliefs.

Now days I call myself a Christian in that I have accepted Christ as my savior through faith that Christ was God who lived as man and who was a perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind. A price which we can not afford. I could expand on that, but that in and of itself is a concept to understanding God that I have been able to build on and now days I like to study other beliefs and concepts. There are things I don't fully grasp about God, but I accept the bible regardless. I like to weigh the concepts of what I don't understand against that which I do and the bible as a whole to see if I might find even more.

Your right we do tend to pigeon hold things and build constructs that are of our own, and not specifically what the bible says. I recognize that and I see it as two fold. On the one hand we risk misunderstanding something we don't understand in the first place. But, on the other hand we sometimes are able to provide understanding to that which is difficult to fully grasp.

Anyway, thanks again for your response. It was more of what I was looking for, but I also wanted to hear from others in their belief and understanding of this view. I will put a lid on this thread for now since you have given me several better directions for my study.

 

[stranger]

Danus wrote:

Your right we do tend to pigeon hold things and build constructs that are of our own, and not specifically what the bible says. I recognize that and I see it as two fold. On the one hand we risk misunderstanding something we don't understand in the first place. But, on the other hand we sometimes are able to provide understanding to that which is difficult to fully grasp.

The parallel between 'trinity' and man's body, soul and spirit having some correspondence, since man was made in God's image, is at best such a construct and attempt to explain what man is. The body is quite plain - but the soul and spirit are words that were never clear to me -and I have looked at definitions and been none the wiser. However, the flesh nature and spirit nature of man is more understandable than soul or spirit. Thus walking in the flesh (not physcial body)and walking in the Spirit are something that all Christians can relate to. So the image of God in man is best understood as walking in the Spirit - it has to do with God's nature and goodness reflected in man.

 

[Ahuli]

I agree that Greek Philosophy has influenced Christianity and it's pretty clear that that influence is seen in this trichotomy view. However, Christianity surely had quite an influence on the Greeks as well. ?

I will answer this for now. Surely you must know that Plato, etal, was around long before Jesus came and the apostles wrote epistles. In fact, more than 400 years. Therefore, what influence did Christianity have on the Greeks who purported such thought? And where did those Greeks get those thoughts and were they original to them?

Also, considering the Old Testament dealings God had with the likes of the Greeks, etal, I'm inclined to insist that nothing Greek, etal, would be welcome in the Word of God. God would deal with that sort of thing under the heading of "take nothing away from this word and add nothing to it".

Deuteronomy 4:2
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your Father's giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Danus]

I agree that Greek Philosophy has influenced Christianity and it's pretty clear that that influence is seen in this trichotomy view. However, Christianity surely had quite an influence on the Greeks as well. ?

I will answer this for now. Surely you must know that Plato, etal, was around long before Jesus came and the apostles wrote epistles. In fact, more than 400 years. Therefore, what influence did Christianity have on the Greeks who purported such thought? And where did those Greeks get those thoughts and were they original to them?

Yes Ahuli, I am aware that Christ came well after the philosophers you mentioned. With that, Christianity had to face many of those philosophical ideas. That was my point.

 

[Danus]

Danus wrote:

Your right we do tend to pigeon hold things and build constructs that are of our own, and not specifically what the bible says. I recognize that and I see it as two fold. On the one hand we risk misunderstanding something we don't understand in the first place. But, on the other hand we sometimes are able to provide understanding to that which is difficult to fully grasp.

The parallel between 'trinity' and man's body, soul and spirit having some correspondence, since man was made in God's image, is at best such a construct and attempt to explain what man is. The body is quite plain - but the soul and spirit are words that were never clear to me -and I have looked at definitions and been none the wiser. However, the flesh nature and spirit nature of man is more understandable than soul or spirit. Thus walking in the flesh (not physcial body)and walking in the Spirit are something that all Christians can relate to. So the image of God in man is best understood as walking in the Spirit - it has to do with God's nature and goodness reflected in man.

I'm right with you. However, I can see the definitions and concepts of soul, spirit and body, but it does not totally "gel" with me the way, as you mentioned, the flesh nature and spirit nature of man does.

At best the trichotomy view is a beautiful illustration. At worst it could be a down right dangerous path. Still looking into that part of it.

 

[glorydaz]

.I also mentioned that the most intriguing understanding of the Trichotomy concept that I had seen was by Witness Lee, the founder of what today is referred to as “the Lord’s Recoveryâ€. Look up Witness Lee on the three parts of man and you should get some of the most interesting information on the matter. This is a denomination of Christianity. Glorydaz seems to have bought into the idea that Witness Lee was a heretic head of a cult.

Cult status is determined mainly by how one thinks of the Trinity. And the word “cult†has the practical meaning of, “if you don’t agree with me, you are a heretic, not a Christian, and those who agree with you constitute a cult that is not Christian.†The old “everyone is wrong but me and thee, and sometimes I wonder about thee†gambit. I am not in favor of the modern witch hunters. They are a throw back to the worst aspects of the Inquisition. , whether or not they were influenced by witch hunters.

I'm not sure what you're claiming I've "bought into". I certainly don't see Witness Lee or Watchman Nee as the head of a cult. They join such as Andrew Murray and to call them a cult is to not understand what they're teaching. There is nothing cultish in understanding the make up of man as described in the Word. Personally, I really don't care whether anyone agrees with me or not. It isn't about me and it sure isn't about who believes what particular "doctrine". The Word speaks quite plainly about the Word of God dividing the body and soul and spirit of man. It speaks quite clearly of the "spirit of man", and the salvation of the "soul". It become important when we address the natural man versus the spiritual man. For man's will, mind and emotions need to be brought under subjection to God's spirit. Not to recognize that we are the temple of God and to scoff at the picture the OT temple paints is merely to miss the boat, as far as I'm concercerned, concerning moving onto to maturity as a believer. I'm not sure why so many people seem to get so defensive about it.

ANDREW MURRAY (1828-1917)
In his masterpiece The Spirit of Christ, Andrew Murray refers several times to the fact that man is tripartite. In chapter 24 entitled “The Temple of the Holy Spirit†Murray states,


One of these realities—for Divine Truth is exceeding rich and full and has many and very diverse applications—one of these realities shadowed forth by the Temple, is man’s three fold nature.…Man is God’s temple. In him, too, there are the three parts. In the body you have the outercourt.…Then there is the soul, with its inner life, its power of mind and feeling and will. In regenerate man this is the holy place.…Man has not only body and soul, but also spirit. Deeper down than where the soul with its consciousness can enter, there is a spirit-nature linking him with God.

 

[glorydaz]

That spirit/breath/ruach, leaves man upon death. Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. Nowhere does the bible say that souls are immortal. But, it does say that God only has immortality. A soul dies. The soul that sins it shall die and we know we are all sinners. How can this be so difficult to understand?

Doesn't it?...we're given eternal life through Jesus Christ.

And that same soul spoken of in Ez. 18 shall live if it turns to God...

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God has immortality...he has always existed and will always exist. Man is given life eternal when he is born of the Spirit of God.

We're all sinners, but we have life everlasting when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
The "soul that sinneth" shall be thrown into the lake of fire at the last judgment...so, yes, the soul whose sins are not covered by Christ's work on the cross will die.

Christ abolished death and has brought LIFE and immortality to light through the Gospel.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Here we see life everlasting given to believers.

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

It seems clear from this verse that the soul can indeed be given eternal life else why are we to fear him who is able to destroy BOTH soul and body in HELL. It's the soul of man that is converted...

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[glorydaz]

Quote glorydaz: "So my soul won't be going to the grave with my dead body."


Hi gd

Lets look at a few verses within the book of Psalms shall we ?

Psalm 22:29 - "and none can keep alive his own soul"

Psalm 33:19 - "To deliver their soul from death "

Psalm 49:15 - "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave : "


Psalm 89:48 - "What man liveth, and shall not see death ? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave ? "

And to think, that these are just a small handfull of verses for you to read and consider as the truth.

Every one of those verses speak of delivering the soul from death. Not one speaks of the soul dying...rather being redeemed from the power of death. The body goes to the grave until the day of resurrection when our Lord returns. The soul that is converted and born again enters into eternal life. The soul that is not written in the Lamb's book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. The grave could not hold Jesus' body, and it could not hold His soul or spirit, either. The grave will hold our body until we're given an incorruptible one. So, I'm sorry, but the verses you present do not say our soul dies or stays in the grave. BTW...of course no one can keep alive his own soul...we must be born of the Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

In our human mind alone, we can read all kinds of things into the Bible and into anything else we have a mind to. There are Christians who are determined that the basic thrust of the movie Avatar is to propagate New Age concepts in opposition to the reality portrayed by the Bible or their personal understanding of what the Bible says. Indeed, the reference is that it is Antichrist and against Christianity itself, though they do not clearly say that the Christianity referred to is their own brand of Christianity. James Cameron, the one who wrote and directed the movie, says that it means something entirely different. This is an example of how easy it is to read anything into anything.

If you wish something humanly intelligible, I suggest that you go to the human philosophers. They consider reality according to how it can be understood by the human mind alone. They will be of more help to you than what the Bible will say to you. Or you could check out Ravi Zacharias and William Lane Craig on Utube. They are Christian philosophers. If on the other hand you wish to understand the true reality, then I suggest that you walk according to the Divine Spirit/human spirit connection that is connected to your human mind and get the truth out of the Bible through the source that gave us the Bible…the Spirit of God. And don’t try to interpret what you are given, just believe what God gives you. When we make the mistake of interpreting what we are given, that is when we begin to create a new understanding of reality, a new Christian denomination, that is if we have sufficient charisma to draw followers unto ourselves.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

JamesG

What I see is you claiming you have spiritual understanding and those who don't agree with you are relying on their human understanding. Naturally, I disagree with your take on that. I have no truck with human philosophers, and I have derived my understanding of Scripture by listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit. It's hardly a "new understanding" since the Bible was inspired by God and says quite plainly man has a body, soul and spirit.

It's supported by many verses...and they speak for themselves. This may be new to you, but it's not new at all to many believers from Paul to this present day. It's simply an area that many pastors ignore to the detriment of the assembly they shepherd. It's why we have so many in the church who are soulish...unable to recognize they are still relying on their "old man". In their attempts to "reason out" scripture they ignore the very truths tucked inside such words as "dividing of the soul and spirit...joints and marrow. There must be a dividing of the natural man from the spiritual, or we can never know what it means to deny "self".

This is not speaking of the body of Christ as the church, but of each member. You...your whole body, soul and spirit. The inner man and the outer man...

Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

It's the Word of God that discerns the heart. This is not speaking of the church, either, but of each individual person.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The new man is put off, and we're renewed in knowledge after the image of God.

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Our spirit is renewed...our heart is cleansed.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

The natural man lives without the renewed spirit and the renewed mind...he leans on his own understanding. The spiritual man has the mind of Christ and subjects his will and thinking to the Holy Spirit that indwells him. The Word is the divider...the discerner of the natural from the spiritual.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

The Word is not only the divider but the transformer...as our mind is renewed we discern the old man's way of going and are conformed to the image of God. Man is very complex...it's hardly "new age" to see that man is created in God's image and we are His temple. We have the outer court (body), inner court (soul) and the holy of holies (spirit)...with the Spirit of God dwelling in the whole of man when we're redeemed.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Hawkins]

Like to get some thoughts on this......

We are humans created by God in his own image. (Genesis 1:26-27).

What type of being is God? A TRINITY — the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. Three persons in one — this is the trichotomy of God. So if we were made in the image of God, and God is a trinity, what then is the trichotomy of man?

I’ve heard it explained: We are spirits, that have a soul, that live in a body. Those are the three parts of man: Spirit, Soul and Body.

Thoughts and definitions of each from all, welcome.

I retitled my post. I intend to make a study of this for those who would like to participate.

The body will turn to dust, the spirit will return to God, the soul will decend to sheol.

The soul represents our identity, it is who we are. But do we remember how we spent our everyday since we were born. Aparantly not. Yet I suspect that it could be memorized in the spirit. And that hypnosis could well be an attempt to access what the spirit holds.

I think that it is because we are three-parted and that's why the term 'soul' at all. One-parted entities such as some angels could only have 'spirit', but not 'soul'. Soul is used to distinguish the two parts besides the body. That's why sometimes soul and spirit are interchangable words when the two-parted soul/spirit is not emphasized. More or less like when we say 'we have a body', fine. You can also say that 'we have a body, and a heart, and a kidney and a lung...that's when the parts need to be distinguished.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz: "So my soul won't be going to the grave with my dead body."


Hi gd

Lets look at a few verses within the book of Psalms shall we ?

Psalm 22:29 - "and none can keep alive his own soul"

Psalm 33:19 - "To deliver their soul from death "

Psalm 49:15 - "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave : "


Psalm 89:48 - "What man liveth, and shall not see death ? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave ? "

And to think, that these are just a small handfull of verses for you to read and consider as the truth.

Every one of those verses speak of delivering the soul from death. Not one speaks of the soul dying...rather being redeemed from the power of death. The body goes to the grave until the day of resurrection when our Lord returns. The soul that is converted and born again enters into eternal life. The soul that is not written in the Lamb's book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. The grave could not hold Jesus' body, and it could not hold His soul or spirit, either. The grave will hold our body until we're given an incorruptible one. So, I'm sorry, but the verses you present do not say our soul dies or stays in the grave. BTW...of course no one can keep alive his own soul...we must be born of the Spirit.

Hi

How can these verses not be speaking of the soul dying ? Before the soul can be redeemed from death, it first has to die, correct ?

I believe you defeat your own stance when you speak of the death of Jesus. His soul went to the grave with him when he died. And now you say that our soul does not have to go to the grave when we die ?

Of course you can provide scripture for this theory,correct ? And please, don't humour us with -- thus sayeth glorydaz.

 

[Ahuli]

That spirit/breath/ruach, leaves man upon death. Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. Nowhere does the bible say that souls are immortal. But, it does say that God only has immortality. A soul dies. The soul that sins it shall die and we know we are all sinners. How can this be so difficult to understand?

Doesn't it?...we're given eternal life through Jesus Christ.

And that same soul spoken of in Ez. 18 shall live if it turns to God...

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God has immortality...he has always existed and will always exist. Man is given life eternal when he is born of the Spirit of God.

We're all sinners, but we have life everlasting when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
The "soul that sinneth" shall be thrown into the lake of fire at the last judgment...so, yes, the soul whose sins are not covered by Christ's work on the cross will die.

Christ abolished death and has brought LIFE and immortality to light through the Gospel.
[quote="2 Timothy 1:9-11":3cbkup1a] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Here we see life everlasting given to believers.

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

It seems clear from this verse that the soul can indeed be given eternal life else why are we to fear him who is able to destroy BOTH soul and body in HELL. It's the soul of man that is converted...

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[/quote:3cbkup1a]
I do not argue that eternal life is given to sinners when they repent and turn to God. I argue the crowd that does not. I also argue the point of time when both are given.

Yes, man can be given eternal life. Do you not understand the contention?

 

[Ahuli]

In our human mind alone, we can read all kinds of things into the Bible and into anything else we have a mind to. There are Christians who are determined that the basic thrust of the movie Avatar is to propagate New Age concepts in opposition to the reality portrayed by the Bible or their personal understanding of what the Bible says. Indeed, the reference is that it is Antichrist and against Christianity itself, though they do not clearly say that the Christianity referred to is their own brand of Christianity. James Cameron, the one who wrote and directed the movie, says that it means something entirely different. This is an example of how easy it is to read anything into anything.

If you wish something humanly intelligible, I suggest that you go to the human philosophers. They consider reality according to how it can be understood by the human mind alone. They will be of more help to you than what the Bible will say to you. Or you could check out Ravi Zacharias and William Lane Craig on Utube. They are Christian philosophers. If on the other hand you wish to understand the true reality, then I suggest that you walk according to the Divine Spirit/human spirit connection that is connected to your human mind and get the truth out of the Bible through the source that gave us the Bible…the Spirit of God. And don’t try to interpret what you are given, just believe what God gives you. When we make the mistake of interpreting what we are given, that is when we begin to create a new understanding of reality, a new Christian denomination, that is if we have sufficient charisma to draw followers unto ourselves.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

JamesG

What I see is you claiming you have spiritual understanding and those who don't agree with you are relying on their human understanding.

[/quote]
Is that not what you do? Or are you no longer a work in progress? Can you not state your point without making the other person feel like he has wasted his time learning? Do you not resort to clobbering someone to death with words, YOUR words, YOUR understanding, YOUR wisdom? Does the Holy Spirit not take us the steps we need to learn and know what is true?

 

[Ahuli]

Quote glorydaz: "So my soul won't be going to the grave with my dead body."


Hi gd

Lets look at a few verses within the book of Psalms shall we ?

Psalm 22:29 - "and none can keep alive his own soul"

Psalm 33:19 - "To deliver their soul from death "

Psalm 49:15 - "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave : "


Psalm 89:48 - "What man liveth, and shall not see death ? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave ? "

And to think, that these are just a small handfull of verses for you to read and consider as the truth.

Every one of those verses speak of delivering the soul from death. Not one speaks of the soul dying...rather being redeemed from the power of death. The body goes to the grave until the day of resurrection when our Lord returns. The soul that is converted and born again enters into eternal life. The soul that is not written in the Lamb's book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. The grave could not hold Jesus' body, and it could not hold His soul or spirit, either. The grave will hold our body until we're given an incorruptible one. So, I'm sorry, but the verses you present do not say our soul dies or stays in the grave. BTW...of course no one can keep alive his own soul...we must be born of the Spirit.

Hi

How can these verses not be speaking of the soul dying ? Before the soul can be redeemed from death, it first has to die, correct ?

I believe you defeat your own stance when you speak of the death of Jesus. His soul went to the grave with him when he died. And now you say that our soul does not have to go to the grave when we die ?

Of course you can provide scripture for this theory,correct ? And please, don't humour us with -- thus sayeth glorydaz.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never die . . .†(John 10:28a)
Unfortunately for many, they think this means "I gave them eternal life".

51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57.

Praise your name, Lord Jesus.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz: "So my soul won't be going to the grave with my dead body."


Hi gd

Lets look at a few verses within the book of Psalms shall we ?

Psalm 22:29 - "and none can keep alive his own soul"

Psalm 33:19 - "To deliver their soul from death "

Psalm 49:15 - "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave : "


Psalm 89:48 - "What man liveth, and shall not see death ? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave ? "

And to think, that these are just a small handfull of verses for you to read and consider as the truth.

Every one of those verses speak of delivering the soul from death. Not one speaks of the soul dying...rather being redeemed from the power of death. The body goes to the grave until the day of resurrection when our Lord returns. The soul that is converted and born again enters into eternal life. The soul that is not written in the Lamb's book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. The grave could not hold Jesus' body, and it could not hold His soul or spirit, either. The grave will hold our body until we're given an incorruptible one. So, I'm sorry, but the verses you present do not say our soul dies or stays in the grave. BTW...of course no one can keep alive his own soul...we must be born of the Spirit.

Hi

How can these verses not be speaking of the soul dying ? Before the soul can be redeemed from death, it first has to die, correct ?

I believe you defeat your own stance when you speak of the death of Jesus. His soul went to the grave with him when he died. And now you say that our soul does not have to go to the grave when we die ?

Of course you can provide scripture for this theory,correct ? And please, don't humour us with -- thus sayeth glorydaz.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never die . . .†(John 10:28a)
Unfortunately for many, they think this means "I gave them eternal life".

51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57.

Praise your name, Lord Jesus.[/quote]


Hi

What you stated here is true. But what we must remember, is that eternal life is a promise from/of God and is still future. The last enemy has not been destroyed yet, and that last enemy that shall be destroyed, is death.

Hence when we die, our body and soul still dies, and goes to the grave awaiting its resurrection from the dead.

There is no such thing as an out of body experience. The soul dies when the body dies . The spirit of man that was given to man , goes back to the giver - God.

The theory that when one dies, one does not really die, is straight from the deceiver , the devil, the liar. He used this same comment in the garden when talking to the woman.

Jesus said, I am the resurrection and the life, and that no man comes unto the Father except through me. When one dies , they must wait for their resurrection, first !