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Yah1
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Jesus is also the Father. Only through Faith do we believe.
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Trinity
- Thread starter joethemechanic
- Start date
Jesus is also the Father. Only through Faith do we believe.
I don't know how I can make it any clearer to you. One, I do not care who Kim Walker is or what she believes. Two, you clearly think you believe what Bethel Church believes but I have shown that you in fact do not. So all your appeals to Bethel Church and those at Bethel Church are pointless. What they believe contradicts what you believe but is in agreement with what I believe. Do you understand what I have just said?Yah1 said:
Jesus is not the Father. That is not what the Bible teaches.
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Yah1
Guest
Well of course you don't care who Kim is, why would you. You haven't come to FAITH yet. Yes, i understand what you're saying. What they believe is not what you believe, they believe Jesus is also the Father. THEY have come to FAITH, you have not. If it's in agreement with what you believe, then you won't have any problem emailing Kim Walker and you would care who these people are. The Bible teaches the Word yes, but it also mentions the word FAITH over 200 times in the Bible. If the Bible said up front Jesus is also the Father, that would contradict the reasons behind why Jesus died. He wants us to come to FAITH and admit we are sinners. He bore our sins and died a very painful death, if it said Jesus is the Father then either nobody or everybody would believe and him dying painfully would be worthless. That's why is says here Matthew 7:14 - Very few will find FAITH.
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Osgiliath
Guest
Can you answer the question I posed before?
According to the Athanasian Creed, the second of the three points of the trinity states:
- The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT THE FATHER.
Matthew writes:
Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit."
Is Jesus the Son of His Father? Or, is He the Son of the Holy Spirit? The Scripture says: "She was found with child of the Holy Spirit."
So, I would ask that you answer the question:
- If the trinity is true, how is it that Jesus Christ was CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but is the SON OF GOD THE FATHER?
Where do they say that Jesus is also the Father? If that is what they believe, then they are in serious error. The one statement I saw on Bethel's site regarding God was very trinitarian sounding, although it could be open to interpretation.
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Yah1
Guest
FAITH, Free. We can do this all night, but we're not going to get anywhere. kim@jesusculture(dot)org
If the Bible said up front Jesus is also the Father, that would contradict the reasons behind why Jesus died. He wants us to come to FAITH and admit we are sinners. He bore our sins and died a very painful death, if it said Jesus is the Father then either nobody or everybody would believe and him dying painfully would be worthless. That's why is says here Matthew 7:14 - Very few will find FAITH.
And I'm prepared to. You made a claim and now you need to back it up. Where do any of the people you mentioned and Bethel Church state that Jesus is the Father?
If the Bible said Jesus is the Father, it simply would not make sense. They are not the same person. That is the error of modalism. How can a Son be his own Father? That is nonsensical.Yah1 said:
This is silly. You seem not to know the role the Holy Spirit often plays in Scripture. Jesus is the Son of God.
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Osgiliath
Guest
It most certainly is NOT silly. What "role of the Holy Spirit" are you referring to? And how is that "role" relevant to the question? Can you answer the question using Scripture, or not?
According to the Athanasian Creed, the second of the three points of the trinity states:
- The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT THE FATHER.
The question is:
- If the trinity is true, how is it that Jesus Christ was CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but is the SON OF GOD THE FATHER?
It's a VERY serious and legitimate question. Can you answer specifically, using the Scriptures?
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Deborah13
Guest
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
refer. Word - Logos - GK Strong's #3056 - Blue Letter Bible
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Deborah13
Guest
1 John 5:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
biblegateway.com
King James Version (KJV)
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
biblegateway.com
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Deborah13
Guest
John 1:1-14
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
For starters, look at what I posted to you previously regarding 1 Cor 8:6 and then read about John 1:1-3,14 below. Whether one considers them explicit or implicit statements is irrelevant. They are both methods of communication.
And for all intents and purposes, babies are created. The point being, they begin to exist. Jesus did not begin to exist.Butch5 said:
Wow. I'm dumbfounded as to how you're completely missing what I am saying. I honestly don't get it. This is not at all hard.Butch5 said:
For the fourth time: in a discussion on the Trinity in a Christian forum, we most certainly are talking about the God of the Bible, not the general theos or a dictionary definition. Do you understand what I have said here? That in such a discussion in a Christian forum when the word "God" is used--notice the use of the capitalized "G"--we mean YHWH, the one and only God?
I can all but guarantee that in any other discussion if someone says something like "God is love," you heartily agree. I don't understand why when I use God here it suddenly means something ambiguous.
I have never said that the use of theos requires that one must have always existed. I have clearly stated that theos is used of the Father, the Son and men. I have clearly stated that it can be used as a general term. I have also been clear that it takes on a different nuance in meaning and greater significance when it is used of God. Again, when we are speaking of God--notice the capitalized "G"--there is only one being we are talking about and for him, eternal existence is a necessary attribute.Butch5 said:
Therefore, when we speak of Jesus being God, as the Bible states, then he must have always existed. If you deny that then you are very close to polytheism.
It doesn't matter if one agrees or disagrees that Jesus is "of the Father." Whatever one believes on that matter must take into account Jesus eternal preexistence with the Father.Butch5 said:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
....
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (ESV)
1. Notice that the Word both "was with God" and "the Word was God."
2. The use of "was," en in the Greek, means that he was already in existence at the beginning--"In the beginning was the Word."
3. This is supported by verse 3, which leaves no room for the Word having been made. John's very point here is that the Word, which "was God," was not made.
4. Contrast en, referring to absolute existence, with egeneto, used in verse 3 and 14 when speaking of things coming into existence--"And the Word became flesh."
This is eternal preexistence. If Jesus himself had a beginning, that would have been the beginning of Creation, and the Word would have been made. How can something begin to exist outside of time? If time doesn't exist, anything that exists must have always existed. If something begins to exist, then time has begun to exist.
Or put another way, if the Son came out of the Father and is of the same essence, how can an essence that is eternal produce the same essence that is not eternal? Humans are finite and we produce finite children. How can God the Father then produce a Son who is not also eternal? That is not of the same essence.
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Deborah13
Guest
Matthew 12:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Who is speaking here?
Who is He speaking of?
Who's spirit is it that He speaks of?
King James Version (KJV)
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Who is speaking here?
Who is He speaking of?
Who's spirit is it that He speaks of?
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BornAgain
Guest
Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Our Lord has power to do all the work of mediation and grace between God and man. He was the Son of God in His divine nature, and had from eternity almighty power. John 1:3 Col 1:16 Heb 1:8. All power cannot be attributed to Him in His human nature, for it cannot be possessed and used by any creature. Since He has been raised from the dead, He now can claim all power in His person as Christ, both God and man.
After his obedience unto death, and His sacrifice on the cross, He became the "mediator," the one authorized to stand between God and man. To our Lord was "all authority" now committed, that he should be Prophet, Priest, King, Mediator, Intercessor, and Savior of his people, and Judge over all created beings. "As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you." John 20:21.
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations.—"Therefore" gives authority to what he is commanding; because he has all power and authority, he has a right to say to them "go." He has the power to make their going successful; therefore "go," be aggressive; they are to have "all authority" behind them in doing what he now commands them to do. He has all authority, all power, all wisdom, and he now gives to his disciples an aggressiveness in evangelizing the world for him. They are to "make disciples of all the nations"; that is, they are to "disciple" "all the nations"; that is, they are to preach the gospel and teach the people.
Baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.—Those who are "discipled" are to be baptized; they were not to baptize "all the nations," but those of "all nations" who were "discipled." "Baptizing them" means those who receive the teachings.The baptism is to be done "into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit means the combined authority of the Godhead. To be baptized into this is to be brought by baptism into actual subjection to the combined authority of heaven. To be baptized into the name of these three brings one into covenant relation with the Godhead. Baptism is, not only a sacred act of obedience, but it brings one into the fullness of the blessings of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christ is a universal Savior and his gospel is a universal gospel; obedience to him brings one into all the blessings which God has to give to man.
But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you." John 12:26.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Our Lord has power to do all the work of mediation and grace between God and man. He was the Son of God in His divine nature, and had from eternity almighty power. John 1:3 Col 1:16 Heb 1:8. All power cannot be attributed to Him in His human nature, for it cannot be possessed and used by any creature. Since He has been raised from the dead, He now can claim all power in His person as Christ, both God and man.
After his obedience unto death, and His sacrifice on the cross, He became the "mediator," the one authorized to stand between God and man. To our Lord was "all authority" now committed, that he should be Prophet, Priest, King, Mediator, Intercessor, and Savior of his people, and Judge over all created beings. "As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you." John 20:21.
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations.—"Therefore" gives authority to what he is commanding; because he has all power and authority, he has a right to say to them "go." He has the power to make their going successful; therefore "go," be aggressive; they are to have "all authority" behind them in doing what he now commands them to do. He has all authority, all power, all wisdom, and he now gives to his disciples an aggressiveness in evangelizing the world for him. They are to "make disciples of all the nations"; that is, they are to "disciple" "all the nations"; that is, they are to preach the gospel and teach the people.
Baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.—Those who are "discipled" are to be baptized; they were not to baptize "all the nations," but those of "all nations" who were "discipled." "Baptizing them" means those who receive the teachings.The baptism is to be done "into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit means the combined authority of the Godhead. To be baptized into this is to be brought by baptism into actual subjection to the combined authority of heaven. To be baptized into the name of these three brings one into covenant relation with the Godhead. Baptism is, not only a sacred act of obedience, but it brings one into the fullness of the blessings of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christ is a universal Savior and his gospel is a universal gospel; obedience to him brings one into all the blessings which God has to give to man.
But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you." John 12:26.
It really isn't a legitimate question. The "error" that you are trying to show applies to you as well.
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy--the Son of God. (ESV)
What is going on in this verse? How did Jesus and the disciples perform miracles?
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BornAgain
Guest
The miraculous conception of Jesus is here assigned as the reason for His being called the Son of God. Viewed on the side of his human nature,this cannot be misunderstood. As Christ was the Son of the Father and begotten of Him, John 1:14, this must be understood as the divine influence exerted through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not create the world, but only moved to bring order out of confusion. So Christ was not begotten of the Holy Spirit, although the influence of the Spirit was used in the conception of Mary. This is further emphasized by the statement that "the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee."
wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten—It is emphatically declared here that Jesus was called the "Son of God" because in His human nature He was begotten of God, and sustained a relation to God such as no one else. Christ is the Son of God only in His relation to the redemption of man. He is His "Son" only in that He was born of a woman. He existed with God in eternity and was not the "Son of God" before He came in the flesh. He was "in the beginning" a member of the "Godhead". But since He came in the flesh, suffered, died, and was raised from the dead, He is spoken of as "the Son" of God. His divinity and deity are from eternity.
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Deborah13
Guest
Yes, and He was also refered to as the Son of Man.
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Yah1
Guest
It's nonsensical because you haven't come to FAITH yet. If Bethel Church or Jason Upton for example, stated that Jesus was the Father on their websites, then what's the difference between Bethel and Jason stating it and me telling you on this thread. You wouldn't believe Bethel and Jason anymore than you would believe me. There IS no difference because you need FAITH to believe. Believe it or not, there are other people in this world who would disagree with you. I'm backing it up by giving you Kim's email. She is part of Bethel Church, the church that you claim is in agreement with you. How do you know their in agreement if you don't email them, Free. The Trinity to them is ALREADY COME TRUE. They know in their hearts! You emailing Kim would be you stepping out of your boundaries and searching for Truth. There's more out there than what you think you know. Lemme know how it goes, Kim is very nice!
I never said the Bible stated Jesus was the Father. This was my previous post on this thread (i'm adding more to this one), this is why it wouldn't make sense.."If the Bible said up front Jesus is also the Father, that would contradict the reasons behind why Jesus died. He wants us to come to FAITH and admit we are sinners. Why do you think HE, GOD took on flesh to begin with. Because HE LOVES US THAT MUCH!! He bore our sins and died a very painful death, if the Bible said Jesus is the Father then either nobody or everybody would believe and him dying painfully would be worthless. But it's not worthless because him suffering in the flesh AS GOD and resisting sin and the devil, living a perfect life..well that should bring everyone to their knees. Unfortunately that's not the case. In 2012, we still spit in his face by not admitting we're sinners. That's why it says here Matthew 7:14 - That's why they call it FAITH. Very few will find FAITH."
Are you still thinking of Jesus as a Son and not a person who suffered immensely in this world, and took on the human flesh? Do you know what i mean by suffered, i don't think any of us can comprehend what he went through. Your religious doctrines are blinding you to who Jesus is. He wasn't just a man who taught the Word and went on his merry way. He SUFFERED!! This is why persecution and religious wars exists, because he was also God.