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The Truth About The Trinity Doctrine: The Answer to All Questions.

Cooper said:
It is easy to become word blind. The Athanasian Creed is correct and the first sentence says it all. "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."
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I agree Cooper.
But I've had to explain it... and it's just not easy.
Actually, it's easier to explain modalism (the 3 forms of God that did not co-exist).
All I'll say is that kids - and most grown ups - understand the concept of God compared to a man that is a father, a brother, an uncle.

But as Free would say: That is modalism.
 
Cooper said:
It is easy to become word blind. The Athanasian Creed is correct and the first sentence says it all. "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."
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Click to expand...
You say it is correct, and you are right, but that is the Trinity and not what you believe. What it is not, is one person playing three different roles or using three different titles.

Here is a fuller text of the Creed:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man."

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm
 
wondering said:
What Randy believes is being taught in some churches/denominations.

I know an Assembly of God church in No. Italy that experienced a schism due to the wording: Jesus, Son of God, and what it means.

They pretty much believe that Jesus is the SON of God, as the JWs do.
But Jesus is not The Logos, or the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
I guess there is no Trinity with that belief...
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All I can tell you is the Randy at 5,6, 7 and that's about as far back as I can remember didn't know anything about the trinity but loved, believed in with all my heart and prayed to Jesus. As adults we develop theologies but I still to this day see Jesus the same way. I believe in Him. I don't know about these other churches you speak of but I know JW's wouldn't be caught dead praying to Jesus. They don't see Him that way.

My confession as a adult would be
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The foundation of the trinity would be mystery. Don't fell bad about not being able to express the theology correctly.
 
wondering said:
I agree Cooper.
But I've had to explain it... and it's just not easy.
Actually, it's easier to explain modalism (the 3 forms of God that did not co-exist).
All I'll say is that kids - and most grown ups - understand the concept of God compared to a man that is a father, a brother, an uncle.

But as Free would say: That is modalism.
Click to expand...
You could always tell the children about a man who dressed as Father Christmas and when the children opened their presents the next day, little did they know the gifts came, not from Father Christmas, but from their very own father. And so it is with Jesus, who even in heaven knows the exact number of hairs on our heads. :)
.
 
Free said:
You say it is correct, and you are right, but that is the Trinity and not what you believe. What it is not, is one person playing three different roles or using three different titles.

Here is a fuller text of the Creed:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man."

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm
Click to expand...
I would not say it is correct if I did not mean it. Somewhere along the line I must have got you confused about what I believe with all my attempts at explanation. My bad.

P.S. I still say it is wrong to deny the oneness of God by saying one is not the other etc. thereby dividing the One God. The creed says God is one. That is correct and I refuse to be moved on that. Even my signature says it. I suggest you look to your own understanding. We do not worship three gods, or one god divided into three. End of.
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Cooper said:
I would not say it is correct if I did not mean it. Somewhere along the line I must have got you confused about what I believe with all my attempts at explanation. My bad.
Click to expand...
You might mean it but the it means that you are significantly confused and not understanding the difference between Modalism and the Trinity. These are just four of the statements you have made:

1) 'Not three persons, or three gods. There is only one God in heaven on earth and in our hearts.

In America, the President is “Head of State, Chief Executive, Commander in Chief, Head of Government, Chief Diplomat, Manager of the Economy and Ceremonial Head of State.”

We could easily think these are seven persons when in actual fact we are talking about One Person, who is the President of America.'

2) "It is erroneous to divide the One omnipresent God of heaven and earth into three persons. God is not three. The fact people cannot understand it tells its own story."

3) "So we are provided with a link to a false cult almost identical to Trinitarianism. Both teach three individual persons. Each person is God but is not the other person, who is also God, both adding up to three gods."

4) 'I shall post it. Here it comes. “The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.”

That is Modalism with the name changed to Trinitarianism.
I believe in ONE God and Jesus said “I and the Father are One."'

And now you are saying the Athanasian Creed is correct. Yet, in the very text of the creed I provided, we see that it says, "Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. . . . we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord. . . . the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal."

This creed states exactly what I've been saying the whole time and proves wrong your understanding. You clearly are not understanding what you are reading.

Cooper said:
PS. I still say it is wrong to deny the oneness of God by saying one is not the other etc. thereby dividing the One God.
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Then you don't mean what you said about the Athanasian Creed, since it very clearly says that one is not the other. That is the Trinity, to believe that one is not the other.
 
wondering said:
I didn't read all the verses.
As you've said, the Father Son and Holy Spirit are identical.
They are the One God.

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes
Click to expand...

wondering,

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal but they are not identical. Each is a separate Person in the Trinity with a different function.

Oz
 
Cooper said:
The creed says God is one. That is correct and I refuse to be moved on that. Even my signature says it. I suggest you look to your own understanding. We do not worship three gods, or one god divided into three. End of.
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Click to expand...
To address your edit:

The Creed says that God is one, that "we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity." The Creed also explicitly states that there are three co-eternal persons, each truly God in and of themselves, but are united as one God. This contradicts everything you have said. You simply do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity nor the claims of the Athanasian Creed.
 
Randy said:
All I can tell you is the Randy at 5,6, 7 and that's about as far back as I can remember didn't know anything about the trinity but loved, believed in with all my heart and prayed to Jesus. As adults we develop theologies but I still to this day see Jesus the same way. I believe in Him. I don't know about these other churches you speak of but I know JW's wouldn't be caught dead praying to Jesus. They don't see Him that way.

My confession as a adult would be
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The foundation of the trinity would be mystery. Don't fell bad about not being able to express the theology correctly.
Click to expand...
I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I can only say again that doctrine does not save,
Jesus does.

I must say that churches that teach that Jesus is Lord and not God cannot really call themselves Christian, just as JWs cannot.

However, your love for God and Jesus comes through and that's all that matters.
There is general revelation and there is personal revelation.
 
Cooper said:
You could always tell the children about a man who dressed as Father Christmas and when the children opened their presents the next day, little did they know the gifts came, not from Father Christmas, but from their very own father. And so it is with Jesus, who even in heaven knows the exact number of hairs on our heads. :)
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Click to expand...
LOL
That wouldn't work!
 
OzSpen said:
wondering,

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal but they are not identical. Each is a separate Person in the Trinity with a different function.

Oz
Click to expand...
Agreed.
I taught the different functions to my religion kids.

Did you finish up on the high school curriculum?
Hope you're doing OK.
You don't post much anymore...
You added a lot to every discussion.
 
wondering said:
Agreed.
I taught the different functions to my religion kids.

Did you finish up on the high school curriculum?
Hope you're doing OK.
You don't post much anymore...
You added a lot to every discussion.
Click to expand...

wondering,

The curriculum is awaiting my push to find a publisher. I'll probably start with Scripture Union, which has a reputation for working in public schools.

Most of the last 2 years has been spent on publishing How to Ruin Your Education and TV Viewing: Five Lessons from John Dominic Crossan. It was published this year but now I realize I gave too much space to methodology.

I've had a recent article published in OnLine Opinion.

Oz
 
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wondering said:
Agreed.
I taught the different functions to my religion kids.

Did you finish up on the high school curriculum?
Hope you're doing OK.
You don't post much anymore...
You added a lot to every discussion.
Click to expand...

wondering,

I've been working on publication of my book for the last 2 years, How to Ruin Your Education and TV Viewing: Five Lessons from John Dominic Crossan (Wipf and Stock 2022). It's too heavy on methodology. I've had an article published in Online Opinion regarding the increase in "no religion" category in the 2021 Australian census.

I've submitted a peer-reviewed academic article for the journal in the South Pacific and another is being prepared.

I've been blessed to be free of Covid. Is Covid affecting many in your part of the world? It is in plague proportions Down Under.

Blessings in Christ,
Oz
 
Free said:
To address your edit:

The Creed says that God is one, that "we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity." The Creed also explicitly states that there are three co-eternal persons, each truly God in and of themselves, but are united as one God. This contradicts everything you have said. You simply do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity nor the claims of the Athanasian Creed.
Click to expand...
Your bold
"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God."

ONE GOD

Catholicism divides by saying one is not the other.
 
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A Triathlete is a runner, a cyclist and a swimmer. Some would think they are three athletes. Others would know they are ONE person.
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Cooper said:
Your bold
"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God."

ONE GOD

Catholicism divides by saying one is not the other.
Click to expand...
You are taking one line of the Creed and completely divorcing it from the context. I want to say it’s rather unbelievable, but it isn’t.

Cooper said:
You are dividing God.
Click to expand...
No, I am stating what the Bible says.

Cooper said:
The Athelstone Creed is correct.
You are wrong.
Click to expand...
Assuming you mean the Athanasian Creed, I agree it is correct, but that means I am correct. I even posted the entire creed which proves I am correct. I even bolded the relevant parts which you are ignoring.

Cooper said:
A Triathlete is a runner, a cyclist and a swimmer. Some would think they are three athletes. Others would know they are ONE person.
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Click to expand...
None would think they are three athletes. That is absurd. And that is Modalism.
 
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