GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What or Who are the 7 spirits?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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The Truth About The Trinity Doctrine: The Answer to All Questions.
- Thread starter Jacob62
- Start date
Taking your name in vain? Seriously? Care to address your hypocrisy which I pointed out, where you said Trinitarianism and Modalism are the same and that Modalism is a false cult, making Trinitarianism a false cult?
What would you call your beliefs?
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No, it definitely does not say that. The wording is chosen specifically to avoid such a conclusion.
To say that the one God exists as three persons or that the three persons exist as one God, is to say the same thing.
No, it does not. There are three basic foundations of the Trinity:
1. Monotheism--there was, is, and ever will be only one God.
2. There are three divine persons.
3. The three persons are coequal and coeternal--there never was a time when all three did not exist.
That is what the Bible teaches or at least best summarizes all that the Bible teaches about the nature of God.
You cannot be serious. I bolded the portions of the two definitions which clearly show what the difference is, that was the whole point of bolding, and that was the second or third time doing so. Modalism is the belief that the one God is one person who reveals himself in three different modes or forms. Trinitarianism is the belief that God has always existed as three coequal persons, each truly God, but each distinct one from the other.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
This is not correct. It is not the same thing.
In one way there is only One God.
In the other way there are 3 gods in 3 different persons.
I agree with the above.
BUT
What is a person?
They have the same nature.
They are all within the same God.
Your last sentence is correct.
Thinking on the modes or forms.
Do you think it's correct to say that God is like a man that:
IS A FATHER
IS AN UNCLE
IS A BROTHER
??
No, it is the same thing.
They are of the same substance. "Person" is just a human word to approximate the individual personhood of each.
No, that would not be correct. That would be Modalism; that is one person who has different roles and not three distinct persons. It would also open the door to God being any number of different things, since those are just arbitrary roles (why not include husband, engineer, co-worker, father-in-law, brother-in-law, etc.).
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
You're right.
Saying God is like a man that is a husband, brother, father is NOT correct.
(I don't know that if God has revealed Himself completely...but we do know only what you've posted).
The water in 3 forms is also wrong.
The triangle is the best I could come up with.
Am reading that article you sent...
More tomorrow.
D-D-W
2024 Supporter
Yes.
Revelation 3:1
To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;
Revelation 5:6
And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Isaiah 11:2
The (1) Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, The spirit of (2) wisdom and (3) understanding, The spirit of (4) counsel and (5) strength, The spirit of (6) knowledge and the (7) fear of the Lord.
Yeah, every analogy is going to break down at some point. That water exsits in three forms is Modalism since the same water molecules in a cup can't exist as all three at once. However, water can exist as solid, liquid, and gas simultaneously at a specific temperature and pressure, know as the triple-point of water. It is better (I think the best analogy for the Trinity) although still limited.
From M. R. Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament:
'Seven also occurs as a sacred number in the New Testament. There are seven beatitudes, seven petitions in the Lord's Prayer; seven parables in Matthew 13; seven loaves, seven words from the cross, seven deacons, seven graces (Rom_12:6-8), seven characteristics of wisdom (Jas_3:17). In Revelation the prominence of the number is marked. To a remarkable extent the structure of that book is molded by the use of numbers, especially of the numbers seven, four, and three. There are seven spirits before the throne; seven churches; seven golden candlesticks; seven stars in the right hand of Him who is like unto a son of man; seven lamps of fire burning before the throne; seven horns and seven eyes of the Lamb; seven seals of the book; and the thunders, the heads of the great dragon and of the beast from the sea, the angels with the trumpets, the plagues, and the mountains which are the seat of the mystic Babylon, - are all seven in number.
...
With the expression compare Rev_4:5, the seven lamps of fire, “which are the seven Spirits of God:” Rev_3:1, where Jesus is said to have “the seven Spirits of God.” Thus the seven Spirits belong to the Son as well as to the Father (see Joh_15:26). The prototype of John's expression is found in the vision of Zechariah, where the Messiah is prefigured as a stone with seven eyes, “the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth” (Zec_3:9; Zec_4:10). Compare also the same prophet's vision of the seven-branched candlestick (Zec_4:2).
Hence the Holy Spirit is called the Seven Spirits; the perfect, mystical number seven indicating unity through diversity (1Co_12:4). Not the sevenfold gifts of the Spirit are meant, but the divine Personality who imparts them; the one Spirit under the diverse manifestations. Richard of St. Victor (cited by Trench, “Seven Churches”) says: “And from the seven Spirits, that is, from the sevenfold Spirit, which indeed is simple in nature, sevenfold in grace.”'
There appears to be some disagreement just as to what the seven spirits are--either representative of the Holy Spirit or seven angels--but what they certainly are not are part of the nature of God. Adding to God's nature based on a symbolic number in a highly symbolic book is poor theology. God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Triune God in all his contemporary fullness is clearly seen in the Old Testament along with Jesus. (Not modulism.) The Holy Spirit is everywhere found, but the words 'is not' are absent as we would expect.
Job_19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last, he will stand upon the earth.
Isa 41:14 Fear not, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel! I am the one who helps you, declares the LORD; your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.
Isa_44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa_49:7 Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: “Kings shall see arise; and princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”
Isa_54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.
Isa_59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Job_19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last, he will stand upon the earth.
Isa 41:14 Fear not, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel! I am the one who helps you, declares the LORD; your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.
Isa_44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa_49:7 Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: “Kings shall see arise; and princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”
Isa_54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.
Isa_59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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I agree. But why do you reject Trinitarianism and yet state here that God is triune? To say that God is triune is to say that God is a Trinity. They are one and the same.
Dorothy Mae
Member
There is a great deal of suspicion regarding these “older” texts so it’s very likely that verse was in the original and purposely removed. Logical, it fits in with the flow of the writing. When removed there’s something missing. Those “older” texts have other verses, all referring to the deity of Christ, removed.
Yes, the God of their Fathers who exalted His Son to His right hand as "Prince" and Savior.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
The Same God who in these last days has spoken to us by His Son
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
The Deity living in Jesus is the Fathers and in that gifting before all things He is ALL that the Father is and one with the Father.
Col 1:19
The Father was pleased to reconcile us all to Himself make peace by the blood of Jesus on the cross.
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
My Lord has given me the understanding that He is, (His spirit), Gods firstborn and has always been the Son.- because I asked Him about the trinity
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over of creation.
My Lord has given me the understanding that the Son who was, (His spirit), was in the body prepared for Him - Not a new human spirit and we read the Father was living in Him
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, ‘Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!’ And having said this he breathed his last”
I testify these things to you as God is my witness and those of you who seek truth from the one you love are always free to ask Him anything in prayer.
If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.
When I was asked if Jesus was God at that time an answer was given to me from above for I had informed my Lord I wanted to share the understanding given to me with others as nobody seems to be able to explain the trinity other than with a foundation of mystery.
The answer given from above.
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.
I rest my case.
It would be best to start a new thread if you want to post your erroneous views of Bible translations, and we can discuss them there.
Why do you keep on believing this contradiction? He cannot be both God and not God; that is irrational. As C. S. Lewis said, nonsense is still nonsense even if it is spoken of about God. If the Son is "all that the Father is," then he is fully deity in and of himself and is truly God.
Consecrated Life
Member
Jesus declared that He both had no beginning and was God when He said :
Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Even if you have no discernment of this statement the text shows that the religious authoritarians Jesus declared this to clearly understood the magnitude what he was saying and immediately attempted to kill Him on the spot for such blasphemy.
Whether you attach " Trinity " or any other moniker to it is an exercise in semantics
It is your ability, or lack thereof to discern what Jesus declares that is vital.
Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Even if you have no discernment of this statement the text shows that the religious authoritarians Jesus declared this to clearly understood the magnitude what he was saying and immediately attempted to kill Him on the spot for such blasphemy.
Whether you attach " Trinity " or any other moniker to it is an exercise in semantics
It is your ability, or lack thereof to discern what Jesus declares that is vital.
Dorothy Mae
Member
It’s easy to employ that slur that if one is ignorant.
First of all I get the impression that none of you have ever heard from Him.
I suggest you start that two way conversation if you want the certainty of what I state or seek that truth.
Obviously Jesus's spirit is not Divine and the Deity in Him (fullness) is the Fathers. So in regard to His spirit the answer is no. In regard to all the fullness of God living in Him and all that entails in that context the answer is yes.
"The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being"