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The Truth About The Trinity Doctrine: The Answer to All Questions.

Cooper said:
Well, I cannot see any difference between the two isms. Trinitarianism and modalism. I hate the corruption Constantine introduced into Christianity several hundred years after Christ, and accepted into the church. It is erroneous to divide the One omnipresent God of heaven and earth into three persons. God is not three. The fact people cannot understand it tells its own story. The attacks on Christ the Saviour come from all sides and I cannot take it any more. I am even falsely accused of being a modalist, due to poor understanding.

Well, there we are.
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Agreed as to the corruption.
As far as I can reason, the early church ended in 325AD.

Free Did provide a very good link.

Here's how I understand the 2 isms...

Trinitarianism states that within God there have always been 3 Persons, for lack of a better word.
These 3 , in one God , have always existed together and were never apart.

Modulism states that God always existed but at some point He introduced His word, and at some point He introduced His Spirit.

Thus making it seem like 2 more gods were CREATED.
 
Cooper said:
Well, I cannot see any difference between the two isms. Trinitarianism and modalism.
Click to expand...
But there are significant differences, which I've mentioned many times. Did you even read the quotes I provided, which you asked for?

Cooper said:
I hate the corruption Constantine introduced into Christianity several hundred years after Christ, and accepted into the church. It is erroneous to divide the One omnipresent God of heaven and earth into three persons. God is not three.
Click to expand...
If you think that Constantine introduced that idea into Christianity, then you are wrong. The foundational beliefs of the Trinity were around long before Constantine. The Council of Nicaea merely affirmed what many Christians already believed, based on what the Bible states.

Cooper said:
The fact people cannot understand it tells its own story.
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What story?

Cooper said:
The attacks on Christ the Saviour come from all sides and I cannot take it any more. I am even falsely accused of being a modalist, due to poor understanding.
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You have shown that you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity nor what Modalism teaches.

Cooper said:
You have it wrong, but I dare not say any more. All I ask is that you compare the three persons of Trinitarianism with the three persons of Modalism. Look at the outer ring of the Trinitarian diagram. Thank you.
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I am certain I have it right, and comparing will show this to be the case. In fact, it's right in the first quote I provided:

"Modalism teaches that God is a single person who has eternally existed and yet He has revealed himself in three modes or forms. Modalism rejects the Trinitarian belief that God exists at all times as three distinct persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Rather, the modalist believes that God is one person made known in three modes."

Let's look at the second quote, from CARM:

"Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. . . . In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time–only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ."

The only difference, perhaps, with your beliefs and Modalism is that you believe God exists in all three modes at the same time. But that is, for all intents and purposes, the very same.

What I can firmly state is that the Trinity and Modalism are most certainly not the same, as you claim.
 
wondering said:
Agreed as to the corruption.
As far as I can reason, the early church ended in 325AD.

Free Did provide a very good link.

Here's how I understand the 2 isms...

Trinitarianism states that within God there have always been 3 Persons, for lack of a better word.
These 3 , in one God , have always existed together and were never apart.

Modulism states that God always existed but at some point He introduced His word, and at some point He introduced His Spirit.

Thus making it seem like 2 more gods were CREATED.
Click to expand...
So we are provided with a link to a false cult almost identical to Trinitarianism. Both teach three individual persons. Each person is God but is not the other person, who is also God, both adding up to three gods.
.
 
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Peterlag said:
Did the Trinty come from the Apostles or from the Catholics?
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It came from Constantin who adopted Christianity for political reasons many years after the death of Christ and the apostles. It was adopted by the early Catholic Church against the wishes of many bishops.
 
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Cooper said:
So we are provided with a link to a false cult almost identical to Trinitarianism. Both teach three individual persons. Each person is God but is not the other person, who is also God, both adding up to three gods.
.
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Did you not read my post or any of the information in the links I provided? I even bolded and underlined the relevant parts.

Modalism teaches one person (like your belief) who has revealed himself in three different modes or forms (you believe three different titles or roles). Modalism is no different than one actor playing three different characters in a play. Trinitarianism teaches three distinct coeternal, coequal persons.

Cooper said:
It came from Constantin who adopted Christianity for political reasons many years after the death of Christ and the apostles.
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Again, no. Any church historian will tell you this is not the case.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/trinitarianism-in-the-early-church/

Cooper said:
It was adopted by the early Catholic Church against the wishes of many bishops.
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Who preferred Arianism, that Jesus was a mere creature and not God. That goes against your beliefs as well, so you probably shouldn't use it against Trinitarianism.
 
Free said:
Did you not read my post or any of the information in the links I provided? I even bolded and underlined the relevant parts.

Modalism teaches one person (like your belief) who has revealed himself in three different modes or forms (you believe three different titles or roles). Modalism is no different than one actor playing three different characters in a play. Trinitarianism teaches three distinct coeternal, coequal persons.


Again, no. Any church historian will tell you this is not the case.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/trinitarianism-in-the-early-church/


Who preferred Arianism, that Jesus was a mere creature and not God. That also goes against your beliefs, so you probably shouldn't use it against Trinitarianism.
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I know all that, been there and done it as they say. I did write that Trintarism was adopted by the Catholic Church at the behest of Constantine. However, I am reading the Trinitarians were founded on 17 December 1198; 823 years ago by John of Matha and Felix of Valois. Their headquarters are in Rome and their membership in 2018 numbered 610, which includes 415 priests. Their Parent organization is the Catholic Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
This must be a different order. Constantine the Great born 272 died on 22 May 337.

Now down to the core of the matter. I asked you to look at the Trinitarian diagram's outer edge and tell me what it says. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

I shall post it. Here it comes. “The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.”

That is Modalism with the name changed to Trinitarianism.
I believe in ONE God and Jesus said “I and the Father are One.”
Please do not call me a Modalist, you could not have devised a greater insult if you had tried.
.
 
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Cooper said:
It came from Constantin who adopted Christianity for political reasons many years after the death of Christ and the apostles. It was adopted by the early Catholic Church against the wishes of many bishops.
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What happens if I speak against the Trinity on this forum? Will I be thrown off the site?
 
Cooper said:
Now down to the core of the matter. I asked you to look at the Trinitarian diagram's outer edge and tell me what it says. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

I shall post it. Here it comes. “The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.”

That is Modalism with the name changed to Trinitarianism.
Click to expand...
What it is is a purposeful and willful lack of comprehension on your part. That the diagram happens to fit with Modalism is irrelevant, as the diagram doesn't not communicate the entire doctrine of the Trinity. You should actually read the definitions I gave, the ones you asked for, and then actually read the definition of the Trinity provided in your link. Your argument is a straw man.

Cooper said:
I believe in ONE God and Jesus said “I and the Father are One.”
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So do I, so do Modalists, so do Arianists. But there is much more that need to be taken into account than a single verse.

Cooper said:
Please do not call me a Modalist, you could not have devised a greater insult if you had tried.
.
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Your beliefs are far closer to Modalism (if not identical to) than the doctrine of the Trinity. Modalism--one person, three modes; you--one person, three titles or roles. Note that "roles" is essentially the same as "modes." The only difference is that you believe all three exist at the same time, although, I would think that Modalists must believe God can exist in all modes at once, since all three appear at the same time in the NT. Regardless, your position is not Trinitarian and not biblical.
 
Free said:
What it is is a purposeful and willful lack of comprehension on your part. That the diagram happens to fit with Modalism is irrelevant, as the diagram doesn't not communicate the entire doctrine of the Trinity. You should actually read the definitions I gave, the ones you asked for, and then actually read the definition of the Trinity provided in your link. Your argument is a straw man.

So do I, so do Modalists, so do Arianists. But there is much more that need to be taken into account than a single verse.
Your beliefs are far closer to Modalism (if not identical to) than the doctrine of the Trinity. Modalism--one person, three modes; you--one person, three titles or roles.
Note that "roles" is essentially the same as "modes." The only difference is that you believe all three exist at the same time, although, I would think that Modalists must believe God can exist in all modes at once, since all three appear at the same time in the NT. Regardless, your position is not Trinitarian and not biblical.
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You can stop that straight away.
 
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Free said:
It would be much easier if you would pick a verse or combination of verses and post them here for discussion. Or, copy and paste something from the link that you want to discuss.
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I would prefer if you gave a verse to suggest there is such a thing. Then I would be happy to comment if it's one verse at a time.
 
wondering said:
How are you sure you have the original?
The original meaning what?
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they are the very same that are used to make up the Bible... if you are using any version of the Bible out there you are using the same ones.. as for question 2, it is answered in the post you quoted..
 
Free said:
But there are significant differences, which I've mentioned many times. Did you even read the quotes I provided, which you asked for?


If you think that Constantine introduced that idea into Christianity, then you are wrong. The foundational beliefs of the Trinity were around long before Constantine. The Council of Nicaea merely affirmed what many Christians already believed, based on what the Bible states.


What story?


You have shown that you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity nor what Modalism teaches.


I am certain I have it right, and comparing will show this to be the case. In fact, it's right in the first quote I provided:

"Modalism teaches that God is a single person who has eternally existed and yet He has revealed himself in three modes or forms. Modalism rejects the Trinitarian belief that God exists at all times as three distinct persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Rather, the modalist believes that God is one person made known in three modes."

Let's look at the second quote, from CARM:

"Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. . . . In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time–only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ."

The only difference, perhaps, with your beliefs and Modalism is that you believe God exists in all three modes at the same time. But that is, for all intents and purposes, the very same.

What I can firmly state is that the Trinity and Modalism are most certainly not the same, as you claim.
Click to expand...
I don't think that Cooper is stating he believes in modulism.
I think he doesn't quite get the difference.
It's not easy....
But you have explained it well.

Again for cooper's sake:

In Trinitarianism God has always existed exactly the same as He is today:
GOD FATHER
GOD THE LOGOS
GOD THE SPIRIT

In modulism it's more like this:
GOD FATHER

then Father put forth
GOD THE LOGOS

and at some time or other He put forth
GOD SPIRIT
 
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