The Truth About The Trinity Doctrine: The Answer to All Questions.

[Cooper]

Oops. I misspoke.
Thanks for catching it.

BUT

I also did not mean that He IS superior to all others...

What I meant to say is that we cannot STATE that God is superior ...

This would mean that there are other gods but He is superior to them. There are no other gods.

There is only One God.

That's fine, we really do need to be careful how we word our responses, so my next question is coming up:-

As you can see, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are identical, only the names are different.

1) Do you believe this is the ONE omnipresent God in heaven, on earth, and in our hearts, according to scripture?

2) Do you believe the One God can be divided against himself.

3) Do you believe the three persons of the Trinity existed from the foundation of the earth?

Only one more question to go.

Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's fine, we really do need to be careful how we word our responses, so my next question is coming up:-

As you can see, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are identical, only the names are different.

1) Do you believe this is the ONE omnipresent God in heaven, on earth, and in our hearts, according to scripture?

2) Do you believe the One God can be divided against himself.

3) Do you believe the three persons of the Trinity existed from the foundation of the earth?

Only one more question to go.

Thank you.

I didn't read all the verses.
As you've said, the Father Son and Holy Spirit are identical.
They are the One God.

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

 

[Cooper]

I didn't read all the verses.
As you've said, the Father Son and Holy Spirit are identical.
They are the One God.

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

Great stuff.

Bearing in mind the false cult of Modalism (see below) and comparing it with the eternal unity of the One God do you think it is advisable to write on such an important document the words, “The Father is not the Son.” “The Father is not the Holy Spirit.” “The Holy Spirit is not the Son?”

I ask because anyone reading those words would think straight away, “Catholics believe in modalism.” Or alternatively, Catholics believe in three gods. Do you want that? And would you agree with them?

“Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son; and after Jesus’ ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time–only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.”

Modalism

Modalism is the denial of the Trinity and the affirmation that instead God exists as just one person who takes on different roles or "modes"

carm.org

All done and thank you for your responses. God bless.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great stuff.

Bearing in mind the false cult of Modalism (see below) and comparing it with the eternal unity of the One God do you think it is advisable to write on such an important document the words, “The Father is not the Son.” “The Father is not the Holy Spirit.” “The Holy Spirit is not the Son?”

I ask because anyone reading those words would think straight away, “Catholics believe in modalism.” Do you want that? And would you agree with them?

“Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son; and after Jesus’ ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time–only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.”

Modalism

Modalism is the denial of the Trinity and the affirmation that instead God exists as just one person who takes on different roles or "modes"

carm.org

All done and thank you for your responses. God bless.

If I remember correctly, you've been accused of being a modulism believer.
I never thought you were.

You've stated perfectly what the problem with modulism is:
Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created at some point in time to be revealed to us.

OK. However, we must admit that each PERSON of the Godhead has their very own "job" to do.
In this way we can safely say that THE FATHER IS NOT THE SON. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT THE THE SON...etc.

Catholics do not believe in modulism, nor would I want that.
I don't want any Christian denomination to believe in modulism because God cannot be removed from Himself.

IOW, The 2nd Person of the Trinity, The Logos, went to the cross...not the Father.
The Holy Spirit empowers us...Not the Son.

ALTHOUGH...any one of them experiences the other's thoughts since they are one.

Care to hear how I understand the Trinity?

 

[Cooper]

If I remember correctly, you've been accused of being a modulism believer.
I never thought you were.

You've stated perfectly what the problem with modulism is:
Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created at some point in time to be revealed to us.

OK. However, we must admit that each PERSON of the Godhead has their very own "job" to do.
In this way we can safely say that THE FATHER IS NOT THE SON. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT THE THE SON...etc.

Catholics do not believe in modulism, nor would I want that.
I don't want any Christian denomination to believe in modulism because God cannot be removed from Himself.

IOW, The 2nd Person of the Trinity, The Logos, went to the cross...not the Father.
The Holy Spirit empowers us...Not the Son.

ALTHOUGH...any one of them experiences the other's thoughts since they are one.

Care to hear how I understand the Trinity?

Yes, I have been falsely accused and I found it distressing. Thank you for your trust in me. and yes, I would love to know how you understand the Trinity. Thank you. I shall be back in a short while, I have things to do.

 

[Randy]

The orthodox trinity is one God existing in 3 coeternal, coequal, consubstantial persons sharing one essence. Namely God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit.

I don't believe Jesus shares that belief. The Father alone is His God and Father which excludes the Spirit. The Father alone is the only true God which excludes the Spirit.

In heaven and earth Jesus calls the one on the throne His God and Father. Yet its stated Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. So if Jesus is not the Fathers Son whose Son is He? If He has no beginning and always was God how then did He become the Son? If He has always been the Son that suggest a beginning from the Father. A beginning which is stated before all other things. A firstborn. One in whom God was pleased that all HIS fullness should dwell and was pleased to make the creation in Genesis and even set up thrones and authorities in the heavenly realms through Him. Jesus was given the Supremacy in all things. The firstborn of all creation, The firstborn from the dead.

Jesus and the Father are one as He stated. He in the Father and the Father in Him. Jesus and us are one as He stated. We in Him and He in us.

When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

Fathers promise - In the last days I will pour out My Spirit....

Its the Spirit of God not God the Spirit. The trinity created a person in regard to Gods Spirit.
The Fathers Spirit would have the Fathers nature but would NOT be a distinct person from the Father anymore then your own spirit would be from you. Your Spirit knows your thoughts and acts on your will likewise the Spirit of God knows the mind of the Spirit and acts on that will and also only speaks what He hears not on His own.

The fullness that was pleased to dwell in Jesus (Col 1:19) knows Jesus's thoughts and acts on His will just as if He was the Father Himself. He is ALL that the Father is (God in that context) and one with the Father. The only limitation is that Jesus abides within the framework of the Fathers Will. (HIs God and Father)

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I have been falsely accused and I found it distressing. Thank you for your trust in me. and yes, I would love to know how you understand the Trinity. Thank you. I shall be back in a short while, I have things to do.

This is how I understand the Trinity and it has given me peace and the FEELING that I understand it, although I doubt that I really do.

God is a being we cannot understand. He is powerful and mighty and can do anything He wants to do if He was able to create this universe from nothing. Which, unfortunately for atheists, this is what science now believes (that the universe did not always exist).

This being has a mind, a brain of some sort, an intelligence.
This is what we call The Logos, The Word.
It corresponds to the 2nd Person of the Trinity...or Jesus...or The Son.
The Son is the spoken mind of God, His word become alive, shown to us as a Person named Jesus.
This is why Jesus is called the Word.
But He was always a part of God, He always existed.
God revealed Jesus to us as the ultimate revelation...
Other methods were tried, but this was the best.
God became a man, that had always existed inside of Him as The Logos, so that we could better understand Him
in our own language.

This same idea holds true for the Holy Spirit.
It could be said that it is the spirit of God...some might say His soul, but I don't believe I'd agree.
Like Jesus, we can think of the Holy Spirit as a person to whom we can turn to for strength and comfort.

But, it's not that easy.
We can also turn to Jesus for the same comfort...
or even God Father.
This is what makes them one.

LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE...
Seems that God can speak to Himself.
A being that is difficult for us to understand,
but that we must come to some understanding of or be forever questioning.

 

[Cooper]

This is how I understand the Trinity and it has given me peace and the FEELING that I understand it, although I doubt that I really do.

God is a being we cannot understand. He is powerful and mighty and can do anything He wants to do if He was able to create this universe from nothing. Which, unfortunately for atheists, this is what science now believes (that the universe did not always exist).

This being has a mind, a brain of some sort, an intelligence.
This is what we call The Logos, The Word.
It corresponds to the 2nd Person of the Trinity...or Jesus...or The Son.
The Son is the spoken mind of God, His word become alive, shown to us as a Person named Jesus.
This is why Jesus is called the Word.
But He was always a part of God, He always existed.
God revealed Jesus to us as the ultimate revelation...
Other methods were tried, but this was the best.
God became a man, that had always existed inside of Him as The Logos, so that we could better understand Him
in our own language.

This same idea holds true for the Holy Spirit.
It could be said that it is the spirit of God...some might say His soul, but I don't believe I'd agree.
Like Jesus, we can think of the Holy Spirit as a person to whom we can turn to for strength and comfort.

But, it's not that easy.
We can also turn to Jesus for the same comfort...
or even God Father.
This is what makes them one.

LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE...
Seems that God can speak to Himself.
A being that is difficult for us to understand,
but that we must come to some understanding of or be forever questioning.

That is nice, a lovely read. I will post my illustration of the Trinity after I have had lunch, shortly. I just hope you haven't seen it before. Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

The orthodox trinity is one God existing in 3 coeternal, coequal, consubstantial persons sharing one essence. Namely God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit.

I don't believe Jesus shares that belief. The Father alone is His God and Father which excludes the Spirit. The Father alone is the only true God which excludes the Spirit.

In heaven and earth Jesus calls the one on the throne His God and Father. Yet its stated Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. So if Jesus is not the Fathers Son whose Son is He? If He has no beginning and always was God how then did He become the Son? If He has always been the Son that suggest a beginning from the Father. A beginning which is stated before all other things. A firstborn. One in whom God was pleased that all HIS fullness should dwell and was pleased to make the creation in Genesis and even set up thrones and authorities in the heavenly realms through Him. Jesus was given the Supremacy in all things. The firstborn of all creation, The firstborn from the dead.

Jesus and the Father are one as He stated. He in the Father and the Father in Him. Jesus and us are one as He stated. We in Him and He in us.

When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

Fathers promise - In the last days I will pour out My Spirit....

Its the Spirit of God not God the Spirit. The trinity created a person in regard to Gods Spirit.
The Fathers Spirit would have the Fathers nature but would NOT be a distinct person from the Father anymore then your own spirit would be from you. Your Spirit knows your thoughts and acts on your will likewise the Spirit of God knows the mind of the Spirit and acts on that will and also only speaks what He hears not on His own.

The fullness that was pleased to dwell in Jesus (Col 1:19) knows Jesus's thoughts and acts on His will just as if He was the Father Himself. He is ALL that the Father is (God in that context) and one with the Father. The only limitation is that Jesus abides within the framework of the Fathers Will. (HIs God and Father)

I appreciate all you wrote...
but don't you think God could do whatever He wants to do?

I can't separate my spirit from myself...
but I'm sure God can. (from Himself).

 

[Cooper]

That is nice, a lovely read. I will post my illustration of the Trinity after I have had lunch, shortly. I just hope you haven't seen it before. Thank you.

Hopefully, this will cover both singularity and plurality. (This was on another forum)

In 1 Timothy 3:16, we read of the mighty God who appeared in the flesh to thousands of people.

Timothy wrote, “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.”

The best explanation I can give of the above is based on a real-life documentary TV program called “Under Cover Boss” in which a new employee began work in a large Detroit car-making factory.

The new starter on the factory floor called John Doe was in fact Henry Ford, but nobody would have guessed. He was in constant communication with the head office while he wore a boiler suit, swept the floor, helped around the factory and did as his superior told him. What John Doe did, Henry Ford did, and gradually people began to listen to what John Doe had to say. His devotion to his work began to influence the whole company from the boardroom down to the shop floor. Then rumours began to circulate regarding John Doe’s real identity, but unsurprisingly, hardly anyone believed the one they ate and drank with was Henry Ford in person. The evidence was there, but they either did not pick up on it, or if they did, they thought it extremely unlikely, but as we know, all things are possible with God. Some discovered the truth about John Doe the same as people did with Jesus, and those who trust and believe in Jesus aka John Doe who came to his own will find their doubts and fears fading away as they walk and talk with not the maker of cars, but the creator of heaven and earth. John Doe did great work and provided for thousands of those who knew him as their boss. Jesus did much more than John Doe and it is to our advantage to follow Jesus all the days of their life. God bless.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hopefully, this will cover both singularity and plurality. (This was on another forum)

In 1 Timothy 3:16, we read of the mighty God who appeared in the flesh to thousands of people.

Timothy wrote, “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.”

The best explanation I can give of the above is based on a real-life documentary TV program called “Under Cover Boss” in which a new employee began work in a large Detroit car-making factory.

The new starter on the factory floor called John Doe was in fact Henry Ford, but nobody would have guessed. He was in constant communication with the head office while he wore a boiler suit, swept the floor, helped around the factory and did as his superior told him. What John Doe did, Henry Ford did, and gradually people began to listen to what John Doe had to say. His devotion to his work began to influence the whole company from the boardroom down to the shop floor. Then rumours began to circulate regarding John Doe’s real identity, but unsurprisingly, hardly anyone believed the one they ate and drank with was Henry Ford in person. The evidence was there, but they either did not pick up on it, or if they did, they thought it extremely unlikely, but as we know, all things are possible with God. Some discovered the truth about John Doe the same as people did with Jesus, and those who trust and believe in Jesus aka John Doe who came to his own will find their doubts and fears fading away as they walk and talk with not the maker of cars, but the creator of heaven and earth. John Doe did great work and provided for thousands of those who knew him as their boss. Jesus did much more than John Doe and it is to our advantage to follow Jesus all the days of their life. God bless.
.

I'd say that's right.
Why any doubt? I think it does cover singularity and plurality.
It was probably Jesus that appeared in the OT.
No one has ever seen God...but the Father is meant. He is spirit and cannot be seen.
The 2nd Person, OTOH, could and did come to have a body all could see. (eventually).

So the above is a good analogy and there should be no problem with it in explaining the Trinity.
John Doe and Henry Ford were one and the same person.

 

[Cooper]

I'd say that's right.
Why any doubt? I think it does cover singularity and plurality.
It was probably Jesus that appeared in the OT.
No one has ever seen God...but the Father is meant. He is spirit and cannot be seen.
The 2nd Person, OTOH, could and did come to have a body all could see. (eventually).

So the above is a good analogy and there should be no problem with it in explaining the Trinity.
John Doe and Henry Ford were one and the same person.

Thank you.

 

[Randy]

I appreciate all you wrote...
but don't you think God could do whatever He wants to do?

I can't separate my spirit from myself...
but I'm sure God can. (from Himself).

Yes to the Father doing all that He is pleased to do. - Jesus always does what pleases Him. Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of the Father because that's the Fathers will. Jesus will raise us up on the last day because that is the Fathers will. Everything outlined in the bible in regard to our salvation is according to the Fathers will. God is Spirit He can not undo Himself.

 

[Cooper]

Thank you.

I still have a problem the the "was not" in the Trinity diagram. In my illustration, John Doe WAS the creator, but in the diagram, Jesus is neither the creator nor the Father. But as we know God is One, the same as Henry Ford and John Doe were one. One became flesh and the other wore a boiler suit but in both cases, the one who humbled himself was the greater.

Come to think of it I'm not sure what the Father did, but suddenly I realise it was the Father IN Jesus.

 

[Randy]

I still have a problem the the "was not" in the Trinity diagram. In my illustration, John Doe WAS the creator, but in the diagram, Jesus is neither the creator nor the Father. But as we know God is One, the same as Henry Ford and John Doe were one. One became flesh and the other wore a boiler suit but in both cases, the one who humbled himself was the greater.

Come to think of it I'm not sure what the Father did, but suddenly I realise it was the Father IN Jesus.

Yes- together
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

 

[Peterlag]

Hi Peterlag
I think you're new.
Welcome.

If you make a statement, you should be able to support it. Otherwise you should not state an idea that has no support.

Just because you believe something does not make it true.

Again, please support your statement that the CC in some way overtook Christianity.

We're all here to discuss and learn.

If you believe Peter was the first Pope. Then the Catholic church did not take over the Christian church because the Catholic church is the Christian church. If you believe otherwise then at some point the Christian church had to become Catholic. Do I not make sense?

 

[Free]

That's fine, we really do need to be careful how we word our responses, so my next question is coming up:-

As you can see, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are identical, only the names are different.

These are, in part, precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that God reveals of himself to us in Scripture.

Bearing in mind the false cult of Modalism (see below) and comparing it with the eternal unity of the One God do you think it is advisable to write on such an important document the words, “The Father is not the Son.” “The Father is not the Holy Spirit.” “The Holy Spirit is not the Son?”

I ask because anyone reading those words would think straight away, “Catholics believe in modalism.” Or alternatively, Catholics believe in three gods. Do you want that? And would you agree with them?

Well, if the image used states that it is an explanation of the Trinity, then, no, no one 'would think straight away, "Catholics believe in modalism."' Nor would anyone think that Catholics believe in three gods, since the image clearly shows this not to be the case. You are taking even the outside ring of the image out of context by ignoring the rest of the image.

Yes, I have been falsely accused and I found it distressing.

You found it distressing? That, despite you saying, "Well, I cannot see any difference between the two isms. Trinitarianism and modalism," "So we are provided with a link to a false cult almost identical to Trinitarianism. Both teach three individual persons. Each person is God but is not the other person, who is also God, both adding up to three gods," and "That is Modalism with the name changed to Trinitarianism."

You equated Trinitarianism with what you call "the false cult of Modalism," making all Trinitarians Modalists and part of that false cult. Yet, when your beliefs, which are much closer to Modalism than Trinitarianism, are called into question, you get all upset and put people on ignore, one of whom was merely correcting your spelling and said nothing of your beliefs. You need much thicker skin if you want to actually debate theology and you need to recognize your hypocrisy.

 

[Free]

Hopefully, this will cover both singularity and plurality. (This was on another forum)

In 1 Timothy 3:16, we read of the mighty God who appeared in the flesh to thousands of people.

Timothy wrote, “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.”

The best explanation I can give of the above is based on a real-life documentary TV program called “Under Cover Boss” in which a new employee began work in a large Detroit car-making factory.

The new starter on the factory floor called John Doe was in fact Henry Ford, but nobody would have guessed. He was in constant communication with the head office while he wore a boiler suit, swept the floor, helped around the factory and did as his superior told him. What John Doe did, Henry Ford did, and gradually people began to listen to what John Doe had to say. His devotion to his work began to influence the whole company from the boardroom down to the shop floor. Then rumours began to circulate regarding John Doe’s real identity, but unsurprisingly, hardly anyone believed the one they ate and drank with was Henry Ford in person. The evidence was there, but they either did not pick up on it, or if they did, they thought it extremely unlikely, but as we know, all things are possible with God. Some discovered the truth about John Doe the same as people did with Jesus, and those who trust and believe in Jesus aka John Doe who came to his own will find their doubts and fears fading away as they walk and talk with not the maker of cars, but the creator of heaven and earth. John Doe did great work and provided for thousands of those who knew him as their boss. Jesus did much more than John Doe and it is to our advantage to follow Jesus all the days of their life. God bless.
.

Again, Modalism is one person, three different roles or modes. Your beliefs, one person, three different roles or titles. Not only is it closer to Modalism than Trinitarianism, we would have to ignore much of the language used in the NT regarding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

A point I have put to you before, which you never addressed, is that a father can never be his own son, nor a son his own father. The very idea is irrational at best, deceptive at worst. It makes God's revelation of himself as Father and Son not only completely meaningless, and so conveys nothing to us about himself, it makes much of what he reveals utterly pointless and even deceptive.

Mar 1:9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 1:10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
Mar 1:11 And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” (ESV)

Either these are three distinct persons, or God is being deceptive. What would be the point of God playing three different roles, as you believe? Why not just be God, period? It is completely pointless, at best, to appear as three different persons if he is only one. We would normally called that deception if anyone else did that.

 

[Free]

I still have a problem the the "was not" in the Trinity diagram. In my illustration, John Doe WAS the creator, but in the diagram, Jesus is neither the creator nor the Father.

You clearly do not understand the diagram because you are ignoring the context within the diagram itself. In the center, the part you have continued to ignore, we see "GOD," with "IS" connections to each person. This shows us that Jesus is God, so he is as much creator as the Father, who is God, and the Holy Spirit, who is God. Yet, as the outer ring shows, they are all distinct one from the other, because this is precisely what the biblical revelation shows.

But as we know God is One, the same as Henry Ford and John Doe were one. One became flesh and the other wore a boiler suit but in both cases, the one who humbled himself was the greater.

No, that is the same error that Modalism makes. It ignores plain language and relational concepts.

 

[Free]

If I remember correctly, you've been accused of being a modulism believer.
I never thought you were.

You've stated perfectly what the problem with modulism is:
Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created at some point in time to be revealed to us.

OK. However, we must admit that each PERSON of the Godhead has their very own "job" to do.
In this way we can safely say that THE FATHER IS NOT THE SON. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT THE THE SON...etc.

Catholics do not believe in modulism, nor would I want that.
I don't want any Christian denomination to believe in modulism because God cannot be removed from Himself.

IOW, The 2nd Person of the Trinity, The Logos, went to the cross...not the Father.
The Holy Spirit empowers us...Not the Son.

ALTHOUGH...any one of them experiences the other's thoughts since they are one.

Care to hear how I understand the Trinity?

Modalism, not "Modulism."

So the above is a good analogy and there should be no problem with it in explaining the Trinity.
John Doe and Henry Ford were one and the same person.

It explains Modalism, not Trinitarianism.