The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[jasonc]

Well, of course I'm not speaking about those.
Read Romans 1:19....and tell me of whom it is speaking.

others spoke and addressed that but well,American Indians


wife is Seminole and jaci is Cherokee,seminole .I have researched the stories of them .

look,up jitsu the trickster rabbit ,he was the name sake for a pet .

look up Okeechobee the oral story of it .the south eastern tribes are all,similiar.

the great spirit is navajo and that area and not quite the God of the bible ,shamanistic in nature .

 

[GodsGrace]

Re: example: "libertarian free will" decision of mother to abort child so her "libertarian free will" caused fetis to be 'saved'.

Just so I understand you. You are saying that person "A" and determine whether person "B" is saved is not via person's "A' "libertarian free will" as the example of person "A" aborts baby "B"?

Fastfredy
Maybe if we stick to examples in the bible we'd get to our point faster.
Your example above is confusing and doesn't sound like what I posted.
What I said is:
By my theology...the mother makes the free will choice.
By YOUR theology...GOD makes the choice to abort.
I said that since the reformed position asserts that God determines ALL action by humans,,,then HE is responsible for all actions by humans.

Well, you've misrepresent Compatible free will (calvinism) when you said "God makes the choice to abort the baby." Calvinism and semi-pelagians and pelagians would say God allowed the evil to occur just like He allowed His son to be crucified. The part that you wrote about God ordained that he would allow the event to occur is accurate from a reformed standpoint.

No Fastfredy.
I do NOT misrepresent compatible free will --- I would suggest that you study it a bit more on your own.
Perhaps your church is misrepresenting it to make it more palatable to the congregation -- some churches do this.

Every Christian knows that God is in control of everything, but that He ALLOWS our libertarian free will to act.
Only in the reformed theological paradigm does God CAUSE everything to happen since the reformed believe in DETERMINISM.
This means that God and God ONLY decides every little thing that is going to happen, that is happening, or that has already happened.

And God did not ALLOW Jesus to be put to death...
Matthew 26:53-54
. 53“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
54“How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?”

It was God's plan from the beginning of time that He would find a way to redeem mankind from the sin and fall of Adam.
God did not allow Jesus to die....
He planned for it to atone for our sins.

I would say the more logical course is that God allowed the abortion to take place as Revelation trumps everything else and you have Eph. 1:11, Exodus 4:11, Lamentations 3:37-38; Psalm 33:10; Psalm 33:15; Proverbs 8:14; Proverbs 16:9; Proverbs 19:21; Proverbs 16:33 ... I could go on ... that seems enough.
From my small minds point of view/logic it seems best the have a perfect God guide all things as opposed to having immoral sinners determine any part of the outcome of God's creation. Let's see, the omnisapience of God determines the best outcome or sinful man... yep, I stay with God doing a better job.

If you believe that the more logical course is to have God ALLOW what happens,,,
then welcome to my club. This is what all denominations believe about God except for the reformed denominations.
They are the only ones that state that God CAUSES all to happen.

You've posted many verses...pick one and we'll discuss it.

God guides what HE wills to happen...but He does not CAUSE it to happen.
Immoral sinners do not rule this world...I don't even know what you mean by this.

Also you mentioned OMNISAPENCE....
There are 3 OMNI's:

OMNIPRESENT
OMNIPOTENT
OMNISCIENCE

I believe you're referring to OMNISCIENCE.
This simply means that God KNOWS EVERYTHING.

It does NOT mean that He causes everything to happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand where you are coming from, and I certainly don't seek to put God in a box, but God is the one who lays down the parameters of how one becomes saved, and that is “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Rom 10:9-13)

Cornelius (Acts 10) was a believer in "God", which we assume to be the Jewish understanding of God, and the Corinthians in Acts 19 had only received John's baptism, but didn't know anything about the Holy Spirit. But they did not have a whole picture of what the gospel was all about. God knew the sincerity of their hearts, and sent messengers, Peter and Paul, to tell them what they needed to hear. Another modern day example is that of many Muslims who were converted by means of visions.

The urgency of the preaching of the gospel is predicated on the need of hearing and believing in Christ. If it were not necessary, there would be no real need to evangelize. We just can't believe in
"God", but must have some true light as to who that God is.

Now, I do not, as you suggest, put God in a box as to how he gets the gospel to people, and he is quite capable of speaking to people in his own way, but the general rule of thumb for the church is preach Christ crucified and resurrected as the only name under heaven by which we can be saved.

Doug

I agree with all you've stated above.
And Acts 10 is a perfect example.
Cornelius' was a devout man...one who feared God, and prayed continually.
Acts 10:2

He sends for Peter as his prayers have reached God.
Acts 10:4

Peter, as this point, had understood that the gospel was for all nations.
Again we read that Cornelius was a righteous and God-fearing man.
Acts 10:22 C was divinly instructed by a holy angel (a message or messanger of God).

Peter goes to the house of Cornelius, where others are also assembled and he says:
"In every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcomed to Him."
Acts 10:35


Now that Jesus has appeared, the gospel should be proclaimed to all the earth...
as Jesus instructed in Matthew 28:19-20.

But before that Cornelius was certainly a saved man....
As are all others that were like C throughout history.

I did say that if the gospel is offered and rejected, then the person is rejecting God.
I just believe that Romans 1 teaches that God has always made Himself be known and that
some have accepted him and others have not.

 

[GodsGrace]

others spoke and addressed that but well,American Indians


wife is Seminole and jaci is Cherokee,seminole .I have researched the stories of them .

look,up jitsu the trickster rabbit ,he was the name sake for a pet .

look up Okeechobee the oral story of it .the south eastern tribes are all,similiar.

the great spirit is navajo and that area and not quite the God of the bible ,shamanistic in nature .

Jason, the American Indian did not know the God of the bible.
But they did know there was a Great Spirit that was greater than any man was.
They did know about the God that created the universe and concerned Himself with man's endeavors and lives.

 

[Fastfredy0]

By my theology...the mother makes the free will choice.

So, you agree that the aborted baby was salvifically 'saved' by the mother's "Libertarian free will".

No Fastfredy.
I do NOT misrepresent compatible free will --- I would suggest that you study it a bit more on your own.
Perhaps your church is misrepresenting it to make it more palatable to the congregation -- some churches do this.

We disagree.

Also you mentioned OMNISAPENCE....
There are 3 OMNI's:

OMNIPRESENT
OMNIPOTENT
OMNISCIENCE

I believe you're referring to OMNISCIENCE.
This simply means that God KNOWS EVERYTHING.

It does NOT mean that He causes everything to happen.

No, I meant OMNISAPENCE .. all wise. You asked me to use logic and I thought that given that God has a plan (Acts 15:18; Psalm 33:11), which is all-inclusive (Ephesians 1:11) and because of God’s nature the plan must be the “best plan” … how is it possible to have the “best plan” when it is dependent upon the will of men who by nature are sinful. Why would an all knowing, perfect, rational God leave any part of His plan to evil, irrational beings? Unknown author Arminians disagree.

Re: OMNISCIENCE .... I believe God know all things because He plans them. Arminians believe God is dependent upon man for knowledge. God has to look into the future to find out what will happen. Then the immutable God changes or develops new plans according to His "crystal ball" findings. Knowledge is a perfection of God. If God's knowledge depends on man then He would derive and excellency from them. Knowledge from man makes God's efforts an 'effect', the cause not being God .. but man. Knowledge coming from man contradicts scripture:

• Job 21:22 “Can anyone teach God knowledge, Seeing that He judges those on high?
• Isaiah 40:13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or has taught Him as His counselor? 14 With whom did He consult and who enlightened Him? Who taught Him the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?

According to Arminianism, we are God's counselors.

Thanks for being patient with me.

 

[jerry63935]

This teaching from Jesus Christ completely destroys the false doctrine of Calvinism which teaches that if a person turns away from Christ they were never His to begin with.

WHERE exactly does the N.T. state what you've written above?
Where is it taught that some are destined for hell, period, because God determines this?
Where does it state that for some there is no chance for salvation at all?
Where does it say that God CHOOSES to save some?

Please back up your posts with scripture....

YOUR BARKING AT THE WRONG TREE that is how calvinists believe. i debated against calvinism for years ya all need read a tad bit closer

 

[jasonc]

Jason, the American Indian did not know the God of the bible.
But they did know there was a Great Spirit that was greater than any man was.
They did know about the God that created the universe and concerned Himself with man's endeavors and lives.

doesn't matter .so do muslims,so do hindus.so did the Romans and cannanites.those are simliar ,the Babylonian Gods all worshipped and did so before moses coined the first five books and yet Abraham being amongst them was called out .



the great spirit is the earth itself or panthiestic

Great Spirit - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

its nature isnt close .


similiar very much to taoism,the Roman view of a life force and Hindu views of the pantheon .

that isn't close ,look that was a concept I dabbled with as its in many martial arts ,as that is oriental thought.

Muslims have Visions of Jesus on the cross and repent ,they mentuon a familiar voice they knew since birth .I have said and felt that and yet i was blinded for decades and yet that day it changed .

that isn't close to a great spirit ,look I have these idiotic photos and sayings on various tribes on my walls as that's my,wife's things .

Lakota is also her lineage .

 

[jerry63935]

Jason, the American Indian did not know the God of the bible.

how do you know that ?

 

[JLB]

the elect are those who God chooses to save

YOUR BARKING AT THE WRONG TREE that is how calvinists believe. i debated against calvinism for years ya all need read a tad bit closer

If the elect are who God chooses to save, then when are they saved and what purpose does preaching the Gospel serve if God has chosen them for salvation?


The scripture teaches a person is saved when they believe.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

again


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

If God loves the world of unsaved people, then why would He intend to purposely choose them to go to hell?



JLB

 

[jerry63935]

If the elect are who God chooses to save, then when are they saved and what purpose does preaching the Gospel serve if God has chosen them for salvation?

let me help you out I AM NOT CALVINIST go join carm and you can beat a dead horse in there ..they have a calvinist section .

 

[jerry63935]

The scripture teaches a person is saved when they believe.

and ? i fail to see your point do you think i am calvinist? if so your about as wrong as can be

 

[JLB]

let me help you out I AM NOT CALVINIST go join carm and you can beat a dead horse in there ..they have a calvinist section .

and ? i fail to see your point do you think i am calvinist? if so your about as wrong as can be

If God loves the world of unsaved people, then why would He intend to purposely choose them to go to hell?


It’s a question.



JLB

 

[TibiasDad]

I agree with all you've stated above.
And Acts 10 is a perfect example.
Cornelius' was a devout man...one who feared God, and prayed continually.
Acts 10:2

He sends for Peter as his prayers have reached God.
Acts 10:4

Peter, as this point, had understood that the gospel was for all nations.
Again we read that Cornelius was a righteous and God-fearing man.
Acts 10:22 C was divinly instructed by a holy angel (a message or messanger of God).

Peter goes to the house of Cornelius, where others are also assembled and he says:
"In every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcomed to Him."
Acts 10:35


Now that Jesus has appeared, the gospel should be proclaimed to all the earth...
as Jesus instructed in Matthew 28:19-20.

But before that Cornelius was certainly a saved man....
As are all others that were like C throughout history.

I did say that if the gospel is offered and rejected, then the person is rejecting God.
I just believe that Romans 1 teaches that God has always made Himself be known and that
some have accepted him and others have not.

I believe that Romans 1 shows us that after the fall, man still retained knowledge of God, but chose to suppress the truth they knew (vs 18), and to not glorify God as God, thus causing their thinking to become futile and "their foolish hearts" to be darkened.

It is obvious, that man has always had an awareness of the reality of God, and they have always sought to please whatever concept of God that they had. Thus, the knowledge of God is not non-existent, but rather deliberately suppressed and forgotten (2 Pet 3:5) to the place that spiritual knowledge became futile and the true God abandoned and replaced by facsimiles.

There is a part of man, corrupted indeed, but active and possessed of a remnant of "knowledge" that there is a greater and ultimate authority and ruler called "God", and that there is a sense of moral authority that differentiates good from bad, right from wrong. This remnant is an irreducible, though corrupted, aspect of the image of God that incessantly seeks to find its home in things other than God, but recognizes that there is something else needed to fulfill the integrity of their being. It is the " God shaped void" that is seeking after God, but is led astray by the sinful nature to try and fill it by "things" that cannot succeed, that tries to put material square pegs into spiritual round holes.

I believe that God sees the hearts of men that, while imperfect, are truly seeking truth and he sends his message of truth to them by various means to enlighten and enable them to follow. That message is always about Christ, and ultimate salvation is only found in belief in Christ.


Doug

 

[jerry63935]

If God loves the world of unsaved people, then why would He intend to purposely choose them to go to hell?


It’s a question.



JLB

ask the calvinist

 

[JLB]

ask the calvinist

Im asking you, Jerry, as my question comes from your post number 563 where you stated the following.

the elect are those who God chooses to save

This seems to insinuate that you believe God chooses some for salvation and some for damnation.


So I’m asking you Jerry, the individual that made this statement.



If God loves the world of unsaved people, then why would He intend to purposely choose them to go to hell?



JLB

 

[jasonc]

Im asking you, Jerry, as my question comes from your post number 563 where you stated the following.



This seems to insinuate that you believe God chooses some for salvation and some for damnation.


So I’m asking you Jerry, the individual that made this statement.



If God loves the world of unsaved people, then why would He intend to purposely choose them to go to hell?



JLB

what exactly is meant in Matthew ,for if it were possible ,with the word elect .?

you ,those that choose God ?

 

[GodsGrace]

So, you agree that the aborted baby was salvifically 'saved' by the mother's "Libertarian free will".

FF,
Let's try not to talk about aborted babies anymore.
Let's do this instead.....
Tell me what you believe libertarian free is
and tell me what you believe compatible free is.

It would be helpful to know if you're reformed because you don't SEEM to know the meaning of some words
which the reformed use.

I just hate speaking past each other and not understanding what we're saying.

We disagree.

This disagreement will be solved if you reply to what I just wrote above.

No, I meant OMNISAPENCE .. all wise. You asked me to use logic and I thought that given that God has a plan (Acts 15:18; Psalm 33:11), which is all-inclusive (Ephesians 1:11) and because of God’s nature the plan must be the “best plan” … how is it possible to have the “best plan” when it is dependent upon the will of men who by nature are sinful. Why would an all knowing, perfect, rational God leave any part of His plan to evil, irrational beings? Unknown author Arminians disagree.

OK.
God has a plan.
What is that plan?

You posted Acts 15:18...did you mean 17? It states that God the rest of mankind (besides the Jews) may seek the Lord and be called by His name....as the Hebrews were in Deuteronomy 28:10......

Psalm 33:11 is speaking about how God chose the Hebrew people to be His special people from whom the whole world would come to know Him.

Ephesians 1:11
We are with God IN CHRIST...Eph 1:10
God is happy with us, who are in Christ, because God chose, from the beginning of time, for us (those that believe in Jesus) to be His, and all things happen as God planned. This is referring to the redemption we have from Jesus' sacrifice.

HOW do you understand that God depends on man to make HIS plan?

God depends on us in the sense that it is WE who will go out and preach to the unsaved.
In Matthew 28:19 Jesus told the apostles, who were men, to go to all the nations and preach, teach and baptize.
We can say that man is God's hands and feet here on earth.
But we cannot say that God DEPENDS on man to complete a plan which was from the beginning.
Man was not even around in the beginning, so how could God depend on man for His plan?

Re: OMNISCIENCE .... I believe God know all things because He plans them. Arminians believe God is dependent upon man for knowledge. God has to look into the future to find out what will happen.

Omniscience means that God is all-knowing. He knows all and everything. He doesn't need to look into the future to know what will happen.
God sees all time all at once. It's as if God were standing on a high mountain and below Him He could see the past, present and future --all at once.

I don't know where you're getting your information from,,,but Christians do not believe that God is dependent on man for knowledge.
This is nonsense. God is God....man is HIS CREATURE. God does not depend on us for His knowledge.

Then the immutable God changes or develops new plans according to His "crystal ball" findings. Knowledge is a perfection of God. If God's knowledge depends on man then He would derive and excellency from them. Knowledge from man makes God's efforts an 'effect', the cause not being God .. but man. Knowledge coming from man contradicts scripture:

• Job 21:22 “Can anyone teach God knowledge, Seeing that He judges those on high?
• Isaiah 40:13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or has taught Him as His counselor? 14 With whom did He consult and who enlightened Him? Who taught Him the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?

According to Arminianism, we are God's counselors.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I'm not going to reply to Job 21:22 and Isaiah 40:13 because it is well known by all that no one can teach God.

Maybe we should go through the T.U.L.I.P. and see how you feel about it?

 

[GodsGrace]

doesn't matter .so do muslims,so do hindus.so did the Romans and cannanites.those are simliar ,the Babylonian Gods all worshipped and did so before moses coined the first five books and yet Abraham being amongst them was called out .



the great spirit is the earth itself or panthiestic

Great Spirit - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

its nature isnt close .


similiar very much to taoism,the Roman view of a life force and Hindu views of the pantheon .

that isn't close ,look that was a concept I dabbled with as its in many martial arts ,as that is oriental thought.

Muslims have Visions of Jesus on the cross and repent ,they mentuon a familiar voice they knew since birth .I have said and felt that and yet i was blinded for decades and yet that day it changed .

that isn't close to a great spirit ,look I have these idiotic photos and sayings on various tribes on my walls as that's my,wife's things .

Lakota is also her lineage .

Jason,
I'm not referring to Taoism or Buddhism.
I'm talking about the ONE GOD that created the universe.
There is only one God.
Buddha is not that God.
Muhammad is not that God.

God knows who is worshipping HIM and who is worshipping
a false God. I'll let HIM be the judge of who is saved.

 

[JLB]

what exactly is meant in Matthew ,for if it were possible ,with the word elect .?

you ,those that choose God ?

Those who are in covenant with the Elect One.


“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:1

 

[GodsGrace]

how do you know that ?

The American Indian did not read the bible.
They knew about God....but did not know Him from the bible.